A world without marriage

[Skeptic]

Hey, I saw her first...Get lost!

Heh. Actually, while this woman can hardly be said to be sexy, she is by no means ugly--just an older woman.

 

[Wolfman]

Yes, I thought you wrote both. Again -- great job, its very informative and easy to read. I was just trying to understand why they can't continue to use Hans script?

Oh, they can and will continue to use standard Chinese writing; that is, in fact, required by Chinese law, and certainly a reasonable requirement. All Mosuo children will at least go to primary school, and all education is conducted in Chinese.

We are not seeking to 'replace' Chinese as their written language, but to add written Mosuo in addition to written Chinese. Orally, they are bilingual (Mosuo and Chinese languages); but in writing, they can only write one language.

Many Mosuo, to try to prevent the loss of their cultural legacy, have made efforts at writing down their oral history using Chinese. However, the fact is that this is a translation, and as such inevitably loses some of its impact, meaning, and context in the translation. For example, many rituals and songs are very poetic and rhythmic, but when translated into Chinese, although the general meaning may be preserved, it sounds awkward and clunky.

At present, there are significant efforts being made to make audio and video recordings of the Daba priests reciting this oral legacy, in order to preserve it. But this is hampered by the fact that some of them regard it as a sacred tradition to be handed down only from father to son, kept within the family (an interesting side note here -- Daba priests and their families actually follow a patriarchal system; this is a holdover from the past lord/servant dichotomy that was mentioned by Shera above, in which the priests were part of the ruling class).

This also has the problem that, while it accomplishes the goal of preserving this knowledge, it doesn't help so much with teaching it. Consider if you were required to write an essay about War and Peace, and had only an audio transcript. Certainly, listening to it would be easy enough, but when it came time to study it in detail, find specific passages, etc., it would be a royal pain in the behind.

In general, we view the use of Chinese translations and oral/video recordings as very useful, but nevertheless as stopgap measures; creating a full written form of the language is really necessary to preserve both their language, and much of their cultural legacy.

Also I was wondering -- how does the Chinese policy of "one family, one child" apply to the Mouso?

Actually, in China, all minorities are allowed two children per family. However, in regards to the Mosuo, this doesn't make much difference, as the Mosuo are pretty much self-regulating in regard to population, it is part of their culture.

Another significant benefit of their walking marriage system is that male and female children have equal status; there is no preference for a male or a female child, because neither will leave the home when they get married. The only 'preference' as such is that if one family has too many males, and another has too many females, they may swap babies to maintain proportions.

If a particular household is getting too small (usually under 10-15 people), the women within the household will have more babies. If a particular household is getting too large (usually over 20-25), they will stop having babies (they don't have contraception in general, but do apparently have various herbs that can be consumed to induce a miscarriage -- abortion is not an issue among the Mosuo).

The result is that overall numbers remain pretty much constant.

Very interesting. What this shows, I think, is that while there is no marriage, there is also no illegitimacy--that is, most children (a) know who their fathers are (and the fathers do not deny it, even if they have no role in caring for them) and (b) have two male and female adults (mother and her brother) take care of them.

Also, it's easy to see why this social arrangement will discourage promiscuity. In general, most men will be responsible for raising, roughly, the same number of children as they have, even if they don't raise their own children.

However, if you are a man who has too many partners--or, more important, too many children--you are probably seen as a freeloader: someone who makes society take care of their many children while only caring for a few of society's children in return.

Am I correct here? You're the expert, I'm just making an educated(?) guess.

You're correct that the Mosuo really have no such concept as an 'illegitimate' or 'bastard' child. Even the concept of an orphan, while not entirely nonexistent, is significantly lesser...since even if both biological parents die, there's still a large extended family that continues to fill the parenting niche. To be a real "orphan", you'd have to lose your entire extended family.

However it would not be accurate to depict men who have too many partners as freeloaders. For the simple reason that, as described above in my response to Shera, women pretty much have full control over their bodies, and their decision whether or not to have a child. They will only have children if that is what they want.

 

[Earthborn]

Fascinating.

Interestingly enough, unlike almost every other culture in the world, Mosuo females consistently outperform Mosuo males on mathematic and scientific tests...

What sort of mathematics do they have? Do they have their own number system and calculating aids?

How do they view people who do not wish to fit into the gender roles? For example, what if a boy wants to do calculations or a girl wants to do some physical labour? Or even wants to take on the opposite role completely?

I find these reactions interesting because there seems to be no implicit societal taboo that would prevent homosexual relationships, yet such relationships either do not exist among the Mosuo, or else are kept secret despite not being particularly taboo.

There does seem to be a taboo on knowing who does it with whom, considering the whole "climbing through the window in the dead of night" business. So it perhaps there is homosexual behaviour going on, but people just don't want to know about it.

 

[Wolfman]

Fascinating.

What sort of mathematics do they have? Do they have their own number system and calculating aids?

Ah, sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about their performance in the regular (ie. Chinese) education system.

How do they view people who do not wish to fit into the gender roles? For example, what if a boy wants to do calculations or a girl wants to do some physical labour? Or even wants to take on the opposite role completely?

So far as I've seen, this is usually acceptable. The person might be considered a little strange, but I don't think there would be any condemnation. And in the face of modern realities, gender roles are certainly shifting. It is a fact that males will stand a better chance of being admitted to mathematic/science programs in college/university (since these are Chinese institutions that still tend to have a strong male bias), so it can be seen as more practical for the boys to focus on this area. On the flip side, for day-to-day physical labor, such as taking care of the livestock, planting the fields, etc., this does tend to fall under the woman's responsibility (as explained in a previous post, Mosuo men traditionally traveled in caravans as traders, so any daily jobs were the responsibility of the women). Mosuo women are very feminine...but also very healthy and strong, not at all delicate or fragile.

Its really a rather complex structure, and I will inevitably simplify some aspects of the culture as I try to explain it; these questions help a lot to clarify some of those issues, and hopefully give a fuller, more comprehensive picture of the culture.

There does seem to be a taboo on knowing who does it with whom, considering the whole "climbing through the window in the dead of night" business. So it perhaps there is homosexual behaviour going on, but people just don't want to know about it.

As I said above, I don't really have enough personal knowledge in this area to comment authoritatively; but my own personal suspicion is that the Mosuo attitude towards homosexuality will be somewhat similar to that of the U.S. military..."Don't ask, don't tell".

 

[SezMe]

Ah, sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about their performance in the regular (ie. Chinese) education system.

Do they use arabic numbers? Do they know scienfic notaton, for example?

New area: What is their medical system like? Do they have any western medicine? Do they have a hospital such as I in the USA think of it?

 

[Wolfman]

Do they use arabic numbers? Do they know scienfic notaton, for example?

New area: What is their medical system like? Do they have any western medicine? Do they have a hospital such as I in the USA think of it?

These are slightly different questions, in that they don't really relate to Mosuo culture as such, but rather to Chinese culture and politics. Education, health care, etc. are all under Chinese control, not Mosuo.

To answer your questions quickly -- mathematics and science are taught using standard international systems and notations (otherwise, how could Chinese mathematicians and scientists exchange results with those from other countries?). In big cities, there are some hospitals that are quite modern and developed, but many more that lack modern equipment (not from lack of perceived need or desire, but from lack of money). In rural areas, medical care is minimal at best. For example, the Mosuo village that I usually live in is seven hours by non-stop driving over twisting mountain roads to get to the nearest 'real' hospital.

And all Chinese hospitals tend to incorporate both Chinese and western medicine; the x-ray lab will be next door to the acupuncture section, and the pharmacy will have a "western medicine" and "chinese medicine" section.

 

[SezMe]

Just a quick note tonight, Wolfman. I've posted my questions without much context but only because I'm fascinated by your experiences. I really appreciate your responses. As I read them, many questions just pop into my mind and I have just posted them as I go along. Please don't take this posting style in this thread as anything other than a rambling thought process.

 

[Wolfman]

SezMe,

Please don't take my comment above as a criticism of your questions...I appreciate everyone who's taken the time to read all of this, and has the interest to ask questions. I just wanted to specify that it wasn't a specifically Mosuo-related question to avoid misunderstandings in relation to my answer.

Please do feel free to post any/all questions.

 

[Kaylee]

Oh, they can and will continue to use standard Chinese writing; that is, in fact, required by Chinese law, and certainly a reasonable requirement. All Mosuo children will at least go to primary school, and all education is conducted in Chinese.

We are not seeking to 'replace' Chinese as their written language, but to add written Mosuo in addition to written Chinese. Orally, they are bilingual (Mosuo and Chinese languages); but in writing, they can only write one language.

Many Mosuo, to try to prevent the loss of their cultural legacy, have made efforts at writing down their oral history using Chinese. However, the fact is that this is a translation, and as such inevitably loses some of its impact, meaning, and context in the translation. For example, many rituals and songs are very poetic and rhythmic, but when translated into Chinese, although the general meaning may be preserved, it sounds awkward and clunky.

Oh, OK. I had misinterpreted the Wiki article than.

Script

Generally, the Mosuo uses the Han script for daily communication. The Tibetan script is mainly used for religious purposes.

I had assumed that this meant they transliterated vs. translated Mosuo into Hans or Tibetan script.

At present, there are significant efforts being made to make audio and video recordings of the Daba priests reciting this oral legacy, in order to preserve it. But this is hampered by the fact that some of them regard it as a sacred tradition to be handed down only from father to son, kept within the family (an interesting side note here -- Daba priests and their families actually follow a patriarchal system; this is a holdover from the past lord/servant dichotomy that was mentioned by Shera above, in which the priests were part of the ruling class).

This also has the problem that, while it accomplishes the goal of preserving this knowledge, it doesn't help so much with teaching it. Consider if you were required to write an essay about War and Peace, and had only an audio transcript. Certainly, listening to it would be easy enough, but when it came time to study it in detail, find specific passages, etc., it would be a royal pain in the behind.

In general, we view the use of Chinese translations and oral/video recordings as very useful, but nevertheless as stopgap measures; creating a full written form of the language is really necessary to preserve both their language, and much of their cultural legacy.

I admire what your association and the Mouso are doing, and I appreciate what a challenge it must be.

 

[Wolfman]

I had assumed that this meant they transliterated vs. translated Mosuo into Hans or Tibetan script.

Transliteration isn't really practical, as there are sounds (and sound combinations) in the Mosuo language that don't exist in Mandarin Chinese or Tibetan. I know of Mosuo who've made attempts at this, but the result is worse than just translating it into Chinese (or some other language).

I admire what your association and the Mouso are doing, and I appreciate what a challenge it must be.

Thanks!

 

[luchog]

On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism plays a much greater role in their lives. Buddhist monks walk the streets, there are monasteries for teaching and housing monks, prayer flags wave from the branches of every tree, old women walk the streets spinning prayer wheels, etc.

Daba is practiced on a more ritual basis...for births, deaths, naming ceremonies, sickness, etc., the Daba priest will be called in to perform the relevant ceremonies.

It sounds similar to Japanese religious culture, and the melding of Buddhism and Shinto. Although with the Japanese, there was historically a class divide between the two.

 

[luchog]

Adapt Daba symbols. Although the Mosuo have no written form of their language, their religion, Daba, does have a variety of religious symbols. These symbols do not represent an alphabet or language (it would be similar to they symbol of the cross, or the fish, or the dove, in Christianity). However, we could adapt these symbols to have each symbol represent one sound in the Mosuo language. Advantages – it provides a written form that is derived directly from the Mosuo culture, and is immediately recognizable to the Mosuo. It also encourages preservation of a unique part of their culture.

As strictly an amateur dabbler in linguistics (and philology to a lesser extent), I find this to be a particularly interesting, and in my mind aesthetically pleasing, choice. Creating an entire symbolic system, rather than just adapting an existing one, is a unique challenge. I'm reminded of the development of the Hangul (Korean) writing system. Are you using something like that as the model for your Mosuo script, or a more arbitrary sytem?

Sounds like a truly exciting project to be involved in, and I definitely envy you.

 

[Wolfman]

Initially, our linguists will break the language down into its component phonemes (there are several regional dialects, so we have chosen the most common one as 'standard' Mosuo language). Once we see how many phonemes we have in total, we will see if there are enough Daba symbols to match one symbol to each sound. If not, we may end up having modified symbols. There are a total of around 32 Daba symbols (this number varies a little depending on who you talk to), but if there are more distinct phonemes than symbols, it is not a significant problem; just drawing a line under each one would double the number of symbols available to us, which should yield more than enough symbols for our use.

Second, the linguists will work with the Mosuo to assign one symbol to each phoneme. Where possible, they will try to create a linguistic link between the symbol and the sound it represents (for example, if the symbol's actual name is "mah", then that symbol could be used to represent the "m" sound). This facilitates learning the symbols later, similar to our "A is for Apple" methods in the west. But this will not always be possible, some symbols will simply be assigned more or less arbitrarily.

Third, some of the symbols are a little awkward to write in their current form, so we will ask local Mosuo artists to create stylized versions of the symbols; versions that are similar to the original, but easy to remember and to write.

Then, once that is all done, we start teaching it to them. We anticipate starting by teaching a core group of local Mosuo teachers; once they understand and are competent in using the new written form, they will begin creating textbooks based on that, for both children and adults, that can be used to teach this to everyone else.

The remaining barrier is a political one; only the Chinese gov't has the 'right' to designate an official written language (being 'official' means it can be taught as part of the regular school curriculum). This is kind of a catch-22, in that the gov't won't recognize it as official unless a significant number of people are using it; but you can't have a significant number of people using it unless it is being taught to them. So we'll mount a more-or-less grassroots campaign, where all training is done outside of the classroom. Mosuo infants will be taught in the basics of reading/writing their own language before they begin to attend primary school, and after they begin school, we'll have classes once or twice a week, outside of the regular school hours, to reinforce that.

It is our hope that this becomes the de facto standard, so that later the gov't does recognize it, and we can include it as a part of the regular education curriculum.

 

[Wolfman]

Creating an entire symbolic system, rather than just adapting an existing one, is a unique challenge.

I agree. One of the most important aspects of this to me is that the Mosuo themselves really take ownership of this project, and of the written language. The involvement of outsiders is necessary, we don't have Mosuo who have the necessary knowledge and skills to do this themselves. But there is a danger when doing it this way that some Mosuo end up perceiving it as something being pushed on them by outsiders.

Involving the Mosuo in every step of the process, and particularly letting them choose what the final characters look like, and which sounds they represent, is very important in giving them a sense that this is a language they created...we were just there to assist them.

And there is also the sense, the first time the Mosuo see this written form, that their reaction isn't "that looks like English" or "that looks foreign". Their first reaction is, "Hey, that looks like Daba symbols". It is immediately recognizable as coming directly from their own culture and history.

And yes, out of all the projects we are doing, this is the one that is closest to my heart. We're doing a lot of things that are of significant benefit to the Mosuo, some of them quite arguably of more immediate concern. But 50 or 100 years later, most of the contributions we've made will be 'invisible'...but the written language will be an enduring legacy, something that myself and others will always be able to point at and say, "We helped to do that."

 

[Chris Haynes]

Okay, Wolfman... you are one cool dude!

If I am incoherent, please forgive me... I should have gone to bed two hours ago (after picking up a teenager from school ski trip), but I had to click on your intro, and then come here.

I have a few thoughts... The first being my introduction into reading science fiction was through the genre known as "speculative fiction", especially the writings of Ursula K. Le Guin. As it turns out her father was an anthropologist... and even though I used to think she was too, I feel that much of her writing is influence by a "what if this culture did this!" (by the way, I did not enjoy her book The Telling at all, even though I loved The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness). The idea of a "no-marriage" culture just excites my mind on to several of the themes her books bring up.

Then there is the language. I live in the Far West... I don't know which part of Canada you are from, but you may know of the program by both the USA and Canada to "civilize" the native tribes. One way to do that was to take the children away from their families and educate them in a sort of boarding school (something similar happened in Australia with children of aborigines fathered by white men that was the genesis of the movie The Rabbit Proof Fence). The native kids were punished for using their native language and taught to be "white"... or just generally abused:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/soulwound.html

What has happened in the last few decades where we live... and just north where my husband is from (British Columbia) there has been a scrambling to keep native languages alive. From http://www.ydli.org/fnlgsbc.htm in Canada to http://www.lushootseed.net/ where we live... to the Tlingit a way up north (by the way, some of tribes from the north tended to come down to gather slaves from other areas, so no culture is perfectly innocent).

Anyway... the is the only reason I ventured into the mine field known as "Politics" was by clicking on this link from your intro thread. It was certainly worth it. Thanks.

 

[Wolfman]

HC,

Actually, my father is an Anglican minister, and when I was growing up (in southern Ontario) one of his churches was on a reservation; so I grew up intimately familiar with the issues facing Canada's native peoples. While I lived in Canada, I was active in promoting awareness of native issues. I was quite young, and didn't really accomplish much, but to this day I consider our treatment of our native peoples one of the greatest black marks on our nation's history (but certainly not the only one). On the bright side, Canada's gov't is starting to take very positive steps to redress some of these issues, but there's still a long way to go.

There are actually several native tribes in Canada that used to have cultures somewhat similar to that of the Mosuo. They had matriarchal cultures, and although they had some practice of marriage, it was much looser than in many other groups. I've had anthropologists who study Canada's native peoples contact me to discuss some of these similarities.

Fortunately, these days, there does seem to be greater awareness and interest in not letting cultures like these die off. Unfortunately, in too many instances, "interest" does not translate into "financial support". And its hard to accomplish much without money.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Regarding the inadvertent result of 'luring' you into the Politics section, I was somewhat uncertain where to place this, as there are no sections specifically relating to culture. I was stuck between putting it in the Science section (from the aspect of anthropology) or lump it in with "Social Issues" here. I went with the latter because of the more subjective nature of the material, and also because from what I could see, more people participate in this forum (and I'm something of a sucker for attention ). I guess some of the subject matter would also fit in the Religion & Philosophy section also, come to think of it!

 

[Morrigan]

This thread is very interesting. I learned many things. I had never heard of those people before, and their culture and way of living are fascinating.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Wolfman]

I just received this email, from a woman who viewed my website.

Dear Mr. Lombard,

Once again the forces of patriarchal persecution rise up to take whatever power they can from women. Your website is a load of rubbish, just trying to deny the reality of the superiority of a female-run society.

The Mosuo culture dates back thousands of years, tracing back to connections with the Mayan and Egyptian civilizations, who also revered women until men took them over. In those cultures, there was no war, no rape, no murder. Not until men took power.

Your website and your organization are just another example of the inability of men to accept women who are more powerful than them. You'd prefer to see the world torn apart by violence, than accept that women can be leaders, too.

I am going to write to the Chinese government and request that your organization be shut down. You have let me know your name, and how to find you, so I will do everything I can to prevent you from perverting this pure culture.

Don't write back, I am wise to your lies and methods.

Now, this is by far the wackiest email I've ever received; the only thing I could do was laugh at it. At least the woman appears reasonably literate, but beyond that I have problems crediting her with any serious intelligence.

1) Everything on my website has been vetted and approved by the Mosuo, and by anthropologists studying the Mosuo (every one of whom, by the way, are female)

2) I have no idea where this thing about links to the Mayan and Egyptian civilizations comes from, I've never even heard a claim like this before. And there's absolutely nothing to support such a claim, or even make us suspect such a connection.

The rest...well, its just very obviously patent nonsense. But a good example of what I mentioned earlier regarding some of the more 'fringe' elements that tend to be attracted to study of the Mosuo. I rather suspect that if I bothered to engage her in further dialogue (which I won't), she'd start telling me a spirit guides and mystical revelations that have led her to her knowledge.

Anyway, this isn't intended to try to justify myself in the work I'm doing; just as a rather humorous interlude which, given the nature of this forum, I think a lot of people will appreciate.

 

[luchog]

And there is also the sense, the first time the Mosuo see this written form, that their reaction isn't "that looks like English" or "that looks foreign". Their first reaction is, "Hey, that looks like Daba symbols". It is immediately recognizable as coming directly from their own culture and history.

That sounds to me like the logically ideal way to go, both with the creation of the script, as well as education in the written language. Again, this is a truly remarkable project, and I find it absolutely fascinating.

 

[Smart_Cookie]

Wow, Wolfman - another fascinating thread.

I was intrigued reading about the Mosuo's language, and the steps being taken to preserve it.

I was heartened to read that most Mosuo are bilingual, and that their language is still being taught, and that there are still so many speakers of it.

In the other thread, I mentioned that I'm a status Indian here in Manitoba. Our local dialects are in a much more precarious position. My grandparents spoke michif, a pastiche of French and Cree. But in our extended family, it has not really survived. My grandmother spoke nothing but her language. While my mother spoke michif to my grandmother, she never taught it to my sister or myself, and she never spoke it at home. That's pretty common, I find - the language is not being passed down to most of the younger generations.

Thanks for sharing your info with us, Wolfman.

p.s. on the attached link, it tickles me to know that the woman trying to preserve our language is my second cousin. And Joseph Fagnan and Catherine Chartrand are also my great-grandparents.