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A world without marriage

James,

For the most part, a real hodge-podge of breeds, mostly mutts, but all medium to large-sized. I've never seen them used for hunting, but this is not an area that I've really examined much; however, based on my own perceptions, I'd say that dogs serve primarily as pets, and convenient pest-control.
 
JJM 777 said:
Many people also think that it is nice that the home where you go after work is furnished with a spouse --
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all i can think is 'EW'. FURNISHED with a spouse????



in the optimal case, a person whom you met in high school,
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why is this optimal?



this thread was awesome outside of this guys posts.
 
Wolfman-

I wanted to say thanks for your excellent answers. Alot of people (myself included) are hopeful that the new generation of Chinese citizens will bring about a more democratic nation. Although I know there would be no ideal or quick path to equality, I think there are reasons to hope that things will progress and get better for everyone in China (and you are a part of that, how awesome!).

Also, would it be possible for the Mosuo and Noxi to have a more equitable distribution of any support provided by the government?
 
Roswell-Perseis said:
Also, would it be possible for the Mosuo and Noxi to have a more equitable distribution of any support provided by the government?
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So long as the Naxi have 'control' over how the money is spent, not really.

I should expand on this a little...when I was talking about gov't support, I was referring to the national gov't. However, the provincial gov'ts in both Yunnan and Sichuan provinces (where the Mosuo live) have been significantly more proactive in providing support for the Mosuo. Not necessarily motivated by any altruistic sentiments, but rather than by the fact that minorities such as the Mosuo are one of the top tourist draws for the region.

Also, the region in which the Mosuo (and many of these other minorities) live is designated as an "autonomous region". This would be somewhat similar to reservations for native peoples in North America, but covering a much larger area, and encompassing many different minority groups. Within this autonomous region, local minorities do have more control over local laws, administration, etc., and operate semi-autonomously from the provincial governments. They don't have complete autonomy, but the level of autonomy is increasing steadily, with very positive impact on local minority cultures.

My attitude, and the attitude of the Mosuo I work with, is to avoid the all-too-common problem in such cases of developing an economic dependence on the government, or other outside agencies. Thus, we have specifically shied away from government involvement, and do by far the majority of our projects on our own, with no government assistance, even if such assistance is available.

Besides the danger of over-dependence, there's another reason for avoiding gov't involvement -- corruption. Local gov't officials in this region have a terrible reputation for corruption. If any donations go through their hands, you can be almost certain at least 50% of it will disappear into various peoples' pockets. If they are involved in a project, they will inevitably try to put their own people in charge, and again pocket as much of the money as possible.

As an example of this, about 5 years ago, a delegation of officials from the national Chinese gov't did a tour of the region, and made a donation of RMB 80,000 (about US$10,000) to one of the more outstanding local primary schools, to help them expand. However, this money was given to local gov't officials, who were then supposed to "administer" those funds, as appropriate, to the school. Five years later, the school has seen about RMB 5,000 of those funds...the rest have just disappeared. But they don't dare to report this to the national gov't, because it would just mean that local gov't officials would find numerous ways to punish them.

This is, sadly, a reality of life here in China; and rather than banging heads trying to combat such corruption, we decided to adopt a strategy of bypassing it altogether. The fact that we have significant support from the provincial gov't (who are not as corrupt, and with whom we have good connections), and that I have good connections with the national gov't in Beijing (including being the past speech trainer for the Mayor of Beijing during the bid for the 2008 Olympic Games, who has now been promoted to General Secretary of the Communist Party) means that, so long as we avoid direct involvement of local officials, we should be able to avoid most of these problems.
 
Wolfman-

Avoidance of corruption would certainly make the most sense. I am glad that the provincial governments have a slightly better track record.
 
Interesting - the Chewas (tribe in Malawi) still have very similar customs (though now somewhat confused by missionary influence). The mother's brother is the most important man in the child's life, the biological father has essentially no child rearing obligations and often does not live with the mother (and often has many children with different women). I dont know if they traditionally had marriage ceremonies (pre missionaries) but even today they are very loose marriages. This has not helped with HIV of course.

The other three main tribes in Malawi have what we would consider traditional unions.

Madonna adopted a Chewa "orphan" - everyone wondered how the biological father could be alive and he be an orphan. It was his mother and uncles that are dead....
 
Yes, there are, historically, different cultural groups that have had similar practices; but the Mosuo are the only one that I'm familiar with in which this is still a common cultural practice. Missionaries (as you pointed out) have been a major cause of the loss of such cultures, as has simple cultural imperialism. Or just the plain, anonymous forces of contact with other cultures over time. When Westerners first arrived in Fiji, they found a culture in which women were expected not only to have sex, but to bear a child, before they could get married (thus proving that they were capable of bearing children). Within their own culture, this worked well; but with outside contact, not only did visiting sailors treat them as little better than whores, but also were the cause of the rapid spread of STDs that decimated the local population. Women were also much more powerful. Today, little of that original culture remains.

I've had inquiries from Polynesian territories, from Fiji, from North American natives...all talking about how their cultures used to be similar to this, but today are not (or perhaps only have a few people still practicing it). This is one of the reasons this project is so important to me...at best, to prevent this culture from being destroyed the way so many others have; at worst, to at least be able to study and preserve it for future generations.

Consider, there are Native American cultures that had practices similar to this...but today, for those Native Americans who want to learn more about their history, heritage, etc., there is the incredible frustration of finding that most of it is lost forever, beyond reclamation, because no accurate records were made (or preserved).

I'm fully aware -- and so are the Mosuo in our committee -- that we may not succeed in actually "saving" the Mosuo culture; in fact, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it is pretty much inevitable that the culture is going to change to at least some degree. If we can save it, that's wonderful; if not, we can at least do whatever we can to record it for posterity. This isn't just the heritage of the Mosuo people...it is part of our human heritage, a piece of the puzzle about who we are, and how we behave. It pushes us to challenge our own cultural assumptions about what is "normal".

I would love it if I could find people who are from cultures that have (or have had) similar customs would get involved with us; they might be able to provide more insights from the perspectives of people to whom such behavior doesn't seem so 'strange' or 'different'.
 
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Thank you for the interesting discussion of your work-- you describe it so well that it was almost like watching a movie. I am intensely interested now in this group of extraordinary people.

I am new to posting here, so I know, I KNOW I should probably just shut up for a while until I get the lay of the land better, but I am dying with curiosity--- please tell me if my question is rude, or too inappropriately personal and I will absolutely not mind at all... All right, here goes:

How have the women responded to you personally being in the community? Have any of them extended a 'walking marriage' to you? Since you were given a family name, would it be acceptable for the women to have a relationship with you? (Not that I think it would be something you would do in light of the STD discussion earlier...) But I am very curious about YOUR effect on the women there.

Again, feel free to ask me to shut up.

Thank you for your fantastic information and I wish you the best in the future.
 
Its a valid question, and in fact I'm surprised only that it hasn't been asked earlier. However, the answer is rather complicated, so bear with me!

First, a quick answer -- yes, there have certainly been a number of (sometimes very aggressive) expressions of interest in me from Mosuo women. In fact, it rather intimidated me at first, I had no idea how to react; I'm used to the "typical" Chinese woman who will be quite passive and quiet, and suddenly I had women who were very actively pursuing me.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Lugu Lake has become popular as a "sex tourist" destination, with lots of outsiders (both Chinese and foreigners) going there simply with the intention of having sex with a Mosuo woman. This is something that most of the Mosuo themselves resent very deeply, and I wanted to be very cautious that I not be perceived as being like that. Therefore, for my first year, I very deliberately stayed away from any sexual relationships with local women. This helped cement my reputation as someone who was there with a sincere desire to help the Mosuo -- not just as an excuse to bed the local women.

However, things eventually reached a point that I had not anticipated; there were several Mosuo women with whom I really was quite close, and who had all expressed interest in me. I had consistently said no. But suddenly, the Mosuo leaders in my organization started asking me why this was...didn't I like Mosuo women? Did I think they were dirty? Unattractive? To them, it was incomprehensible that I would be A) available, B) attracted to a woman, and C) have that woman attracted to me...but do nothing about it. The only reason that they could see was that I didn't really like the Mosuo. Rather ironically, a decision that I had made in order to demonstrate a sincere respect for their culture ended up being interpreted as a dislike of them!

I've developed a very close and open relationship with a few of the key Mosuo leaders, so sat down and had a long talk with them about this. I explained my motivations, and my reasons. And I asked them how it would affect my reputation and image in the area if I did begin having 'walking marriages' with the local women.

The response from every person I talked with was the same...that I had done the right thing by abstaining when I first came. They said everyone had been watching me, and if I'd started having sex with local women right away, it could have damaged my reputation. But now, it was an established fact in everyone's minds that I was there out of a desire to help them, that I wasn't just some kind of sex tourist.

But while I had embraced Mosuo culture in many different ways -- getting a Mosuo name, beginning to learn the language, participating in major festivals, etc. -- the fact that I had apparently rejected so many Mosuo women remained something of a barrier; and if I wanted to really be accepted by the Mosuo, I needed to be seen as participating in all aspects of the Mosuo culture.

Now, when I explain this, it seems almost ludicrous...a single, heterosexual male, with numerous attractive women actively chasing him, who has to be pushed into actually agreeing to do so. However, the answer is that yes, I have begun a "walking marriage" relationship with one Mosuo woman. It seems really bizarre from an outside perspective...when I went to visit my "Mosuo family", I would stay in their home. But when night came, I would "sneak" out the door, go to my partner's home, and climb in her window, to spend the night with her. The first time I did this, I had no idea what to do, and was afraid of embarrassing myself and everyone else; but one of my 'brothers' appeared at just the right time, congratulated me on finally becoming a "real Mosuo", and then showed me how to get out of the house, and how to get into the other house. (By the way, the woman in question has since moved to the main Lugu Lake tourist area, and has her own small apartment, so I no longer need to sneak over at night; I can just live with her when I'm there).

The first time, I was still afraid that there would be something of a negative perception of my actions, but this proved not to be the case. As my friends had told me, this basically cemented my position within the community, I was now "one of them".

I mentioned earlier that the Mosuo engage in "serial monogamy"; in my relationship with this Mosuo woman, neither of us will have other lovers (even though we really don't see each other very often). So long as we're happy with the relationship, it continues. If one (or both) of us decides it is no longer working, for any reason, we will end it. There are no expectations beyond that.

In truth, I've found this a wonderful relationship. She is a very intelligent and active person, a delight to be with. And whereas most of the time in China I have to worry that a woman who shows interest in me may just be after my money, in this case that isn't a worry at all -- since in the Mosuo culture, our property would always be kept separate, and she would never have any claim on it.

The big problem I have in this regard is not with the Mosuo, but with outsiders, when I explain this. In particular, it is almost inevitable that some women will start accusing me of simply "living a man's ultimate dream", sex without any responsibility, and of taking advantage of local women's naivety just to fulfill my own physical needs/drives. Or men who, upon hearing this, declare that they want to go there and get a Mosuo girlfriend too (without making any real investment in time or energy in the Mosuo community first).

The Mosuo perspective on relationships is radically different from that of most other cultures; whatever I do, it is inevitable that it will be viewed negatively by one side or the other. If I try to maintain a Western judeo-Christian form of morality, the Mosuo will see me as rejecting their culture. If I embrace the Mosuo culture, with all its practices, then I am perceived by many outsiders as exploiting them, of taking advantage of local women.

So, to clarify my own position -- I have engaged in only one "walking marriage", which now is a little over one year old. My partner is far from 'naive', in fact she's a very intelligent woman, who actively hunted me for more than a year (and if I'd resisted much longer, she may well have abducted me). We have a great relationship with each other, which is recognized and respected by the rest of the Mosuo community, including her family. I waited more than a year before getting into such a relationship, and did so only at the urging of close Mosuo friends.

Whatever judgments others may have, I am confident that I've done the right thing.
 
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Oh, one more quick comment...on how other 'foreigners' would be viewed by the Mosuo. If you go to the main tourist area at Lugu Lake, you will in fact find quite a number of young girls who will chase after you. However, quite a few of these will turn out to expect financial "compensation" for such a rendezvous; others will be girls from very poor families who are simply looking for a rich husband to take them away (and, in this case, are most definitely looking for marriage, not for a walking marriage relationship).

"Walking marriages" should not be interpreted as "one night stands". While that does happen, most walking marriages will last longer than that, and are based on a real mutual attraction. If you're just there as a tourist for a few days, such a relationship is out of the question -- you'll be gone, and they'll never see you again. So a "traditional" Mosuo woman would not engage in such a relationship with you.

Historically, the Mosuo had fairly strong taboos against relationships with outsiders; discovery of such a relationship could lead to severe punishments. These days, such proscriptions have pretty much disappeared. And there is definitely a fascination for foreigners, particularly those with blond hair. Not so much for the foreigners themselves, but rather the desire of many Mosuo women to have a blond-haired baby (despite the fact that I've heard numerous Mosuo women express this particular fantasy, I have yet to see even one actual example).

There are, in fact, stronger biases towards having Chinese lovers than having foreign lovers. The Mosuo experience has been the foreigners treat them and their culture with fascination and respect; whereas too many Chinese treat them as backward/primitive, and view them more as animals in a zoo than as equals.

Of course, thus far I've been talking primarily about Mosuo women and foreign men; what about Mosuo men? Within Mosuo communities, it is fairly rare for them to have relationships with non-Mosuo women (although it does happen); but if they leave to work in larger cities, it is very common for them to marry non-Mosuo women. More often than not, this is done for 'citizenship' purposes; in China, you are not allowed to live anywhere you want, you have a card (called a "hukou") that designates the region you live in, and you are only allowed to live/work there. You can travel freely...but if you want to live in another city, or get work there, you have to get a "hu kou" for that city. And the easiest way to do that is to marry someone who already lives there.
 
Thank you Wolf, for being so open and honest. I see the decision you made as one that was carefully considered and fairly done, taking into account all of the parties involved. It says a lot about you as a person that you were accepted so completely into this group of interesting people.

Thank you for sharing so much of yourself, not just about this specific issue (which is exceedingly personal) but also so much of your passion and dedication to this cause.

Thank you again, and all the best.
 
Wolf - I have no questions, just wanted to thank you for sharing all this. I really find it interesting how the Mosuo have made their system work. It would be a quite a shame for them to suffer as a result of increased contact with outsiders - either due to pressure to adopt a more conventional marriage system, STDs, or exploitation. Good of you for helping them out.
 
I too have no questions and would also like to thank you for sharing your experiences and find it all quite interesting.
 
:D Please ignore this message. I'm testing that I can post, as I had a problem earlier and that Darat's watching.
 
Wolfman said:
Historically, the Mosuo had fairly strong taboos against relationships with outsiders; discovery of such a relationship could lead to severe punishments. These days, such proscriptions have pretty much disappeared.
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You've mentioned several different areas for this culture. Forgive my ignorance of geography, but are these close together? Is there much interaction between different "villages" of this culture, or are they close enough that trying to describe them in terms of different towns or villages isn't practical?

Are relationships with outsiders accepted, or would such and "outsider" have to go through some of the same rituals you did (ie, getting your name)?
 
ShowMe said:
You've mentioned several different areas for this culture. Forgive my ignorance of geography, but are these close together? Is there much interaction between different "villages" of this culture, or are they close enough that trying to describe them in terms of different towns or villages isn't practical?
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Its not easy to describe; the Mosuo mostly live in small villages scattered throughout the mountains. This area spans two different provinces (Sichuan and Yunnan), and has at least five other minorities living within the same geographical area. So actually, there's a fair deal of variation between different Mosuo communities. For example, Mosuo on the Yunnan side of the border will generally identify themselves with Tibetans (who conquered them many hundreds of years ago), whereas Mosuo on the Sichuan side will generally identify themselves with Mongolians (who conquered them at some other point in history). There are different dialects of the language, depending on where you live. Daba priests in different areas have developed different ceremonies and rituals. In some cases, they may also have adopted some of the practices of other minority groups (and other minorities may adopt some of the Mosuo practices).

Trying to define what is "real Mosuo" is pretty much impossible; you focus instead on those traits that seem to be held in common by the majority of Mosuo.

Although villages are relatively "close" together geographically (ie within a few kilometers of each other), you are talking about the Himalayas here...most of the more remote villages have no electricity, no roads, etc. Traveling to the closest village means trekking up and down mountainsides, a trip of at least several hours both ways. There are many people in these more remote villages who've never traveled more than 10 or 20 km from their home.
Are relationships with outsiders accepted, or would such and "outsider" have to go through some of the same rituals you did (ie, getting your name)?
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In the past, that would have been more true; these days, no. The only real 'requirement' would be the potential for a relationship that lasts more than one night. While one-night stands are not considered 'wrong' in Mosuo culture, and certainly do happen, most Mosuo would be looking for more 'serious' relationships. So, if you are living there (or will be traveling there often, as is my case), or if they are living in another city and meet someone there, then there would really not be much to stop them from forming a relationship. Again, for the Mosuo, the rule is fairly simple -- if you like each other, why not be together? Efforts to learn their language and culture, or to get a Mosuo name, would certainly be appreciated, but far from a 'requirement'.

P.S. -- I welcome any and all questions, but please, no more "this may be a stupid question" or "this may sound ignorant" or things like that. The simple fact of your interest in this topic, and in the Mosuo, is more than enough. I ask only that you take the time to read what's already been written (as most of you have done). The only way that I was able to learn about the Mosuo was to ask endless questions, many of which I thought may sound stupid or naive, but without which I could not have learned. The purpose of this thread is to help people know more about the Mosuo, and better understand them. So...please feel free to ask any questions whatsoever, and do not feel embarrassed or apologetic about it. As the question about my relationships with Mosuo women should demonstrate, I'll do my best to answer any questions, regardless of how personal or embarrassing they may be for me ;)
 
Sorry...I can't really answer that question. Haven't really heard any Mosuo jokes that I can recall.

Will have to add that to my list for future visits...ask them about comedy, jokes, etc.
 
Wolfman said:
Yet Mosuo men are very 'masculine'...kinda' like the cowboys of the Himalayas. When I first when there, I asked some of them how they felt about women being in charge of the house, money, decisions, etc. Most men replied that they had no problem with it...that men had muscles, so men's work was that work which required strength and endurance. Women had brains, so women's work was that work which required thinking and calculation.
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I have a question. In learning about sociology, I discovered that in many societies (most of which are patriarchal), when they have such divisions of labor like men's work and women's work, the men "look down" on the women's work, regardless of what it is. (Basically, I'm thinking of how men in the US in the '50s thought of housework.) Meaning, in one culture, if looking after livestock is women's work, it will be looked down on in that culture, whereas in another culture, if that happens to be men's work, it will be seen as important and masculine.

So, I'm curious, in Mosuo culture, does either gender look down on the other's work?
 
Do they have any type of exports? If the average eyars income is about $100, how do they earn the money?
 
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