A world without marriage

[Orphia Nay]

I've just nominated Wolfman for TLA, for his posts, and for the Mosuo Language Project. I may need to bribe Tricky to get the nomination accepted amongst the finalists. All support gladly accepted.

Time for a wild card entry.

Since Wolfman has been nominated three times already this month, and since this is The Language Award, I'd like to nominate Wolfman for:

A) His own use of language in this forum; and,

B) For his outstanding work creating a written language for the Mosuo people of South West China.

http://www.mosuoproject.org/language.htm

More about the Mosuo Language Project can be read in Wolfman's excellently written thread, "A world without marriage".

 

[JJM 777]

A world without marriage?

Sounds a bit like a world without personal property.

The winner takes it all, no rules apply.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Exactly. Thankyou Wolfman.

Roswell-Perseis, I'm very sorry I got my back up about your post, and did not digest your questions appropriately. It was a misunderstanding but also a failure to comprehend your questions on my behalf.

I didn't realise the insulting posts had been deleted, so when Wolfman told me a nutter had just posted in this thread, I was seeing red and looking for an argument. Again, I apologise.

In my very weak defence, which I abandon and apologise for, I did tell Wolfman I didn't think your post (or 'the nutter's post' as I thought) was as bad as he described. D'uh.

Rabid she wolf of the JREF, protector of her pack, and obviously Wolfman's paid shill. (I keed)

You go, girl!

DR

 

[Wolfman]

A world without marriage?

Sounds a bit like a world without personal property.

The winner takes it all, no rules apply.

I'm rather doubting that you've actually read most of what's written here, but I think that your comments encapsulate much of what is wrong with perceptions of marriage in most cultures. I am not saying that marriage in and of itself is wrong; only the way that it is perceived or abused.

First, the comment about "a world without personal property"...so you are equating "being married" with "owning property", and "not being married" with "not owning property"? That, in my opinion, is one of the biggest dangers in relationships...the perception of one's partner (whether married or not) as one's "property".

And "winner takes it all" also reflects a combative, adversarial attitude towards relationships...its not about equality or sharing, it is about power and "winning". Ironically, for all that you try to protest here, it is the traditional marriage system that has "winner takes all" rules...when people get divorced, there are frequently bitter battles over ownership of property, custody of children, etc. Children in particular seem to suffer as parents put their child in the middle, trying to get the child to support one of them, and reject the other.

In the Mosuo culture, at least in regards to relationships and parenthood, there is no "winner takes all" attitude. No fighting over division of property. No battles over custody of children. I'm not saying that this is a system that could work everywhere, and it certainly has its problems, as well...but I fail to see how your particular objection has anything at all to do with the issues being discussed. Perhaps if you could bother to read what has been written by myself and others, and to respond with reasoned arguments?

 

[Wolfman]

Rabid she wolf of the JREF, protector of her pack, and obviously Wolfman's paid shill. (I keed)

You go, girl!

DR

LOL -- Orph and I have a looooong history, and have teamed up more than a few times against trolls, particularly in forums somewhat less civilized than this one. Amazingly, I don't have to pay her a cent...just the occasional 'private performance' from a Chippendale's dancer, where she can explore the possibilities of a "walking marriage" for herself. In truth, I greatly admire and respect her for her willingness to explore alternate cultural paradigms.

 

[Roswell-Perseis]

Exactly. Thankyou Wolfman.

Roswell-Perseis, I'm very sorry I got my back up about your post, and did not digest your questions appropriately. It was a misunderstanding but also a failure to comprehend your questions on my behalf.

I didn't realise the insulting posts had been deleted, so when Wolfman told me a nutter had just posted in this thread, I was seeing red and looking for an argument. Again, I apologise.

In my very weak defence, which I abandon and apologise for, I did tell Wolfman I didn't think your post (or 'the nutter's post' as I thought) was as bad as he described. D'uh.

I appreciate your apology and I agree with Wolfman that we should just get back to the discussion at hand.

. . .Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if given the opportunity, many Mosuo will learn and adapt quite rapidly, and will be able to take back control over the changes that are taking place in their communities/culture, and control their own futures. I don't really see this as "poverty alleviation"...I see it more as empowerment.[/qoute]

I am glad that the efforts are to help the Mosuo take control of their affairs and try cope with the future. Poverty alleviation is a nice effort, but many times it seems to lack real long term planning.

I gather from your posts that the Han Chinese have been (hmmm how to put this) very ignorant of the Mosuo and in some (many?) cases quite cruel. Do the Mosuo have other neighbors or allies that can help them transition and cope with the changes they are making? Also, I believe you had mentioned there were laws banning Mosuo religious practices. Have the Mosuo made any progress in gaining rights or protections, or are efforts still focused on rescinding the restrictions?

I hope all is well for you and the Mosuo and that you are all succesful in perserving as much of their culture and history as is possible.

 

[JJM 777]

I'm rather doubting that you've actually read most of what's written here

I confess being guilty of this sin. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak -- and my time is limited.

...so you are equating "being married" with "owning property", and "not being married" with "not owning property"?

The allegory is that when the working day ends at 16 o'clock, many people think it's nice to have a place to go -- "home" -- full of your personal property, memories and photos, and all that silly stuff from the past, which belong to you and no one else.

Many people also think that it is nice that the home where you go after work is furnished with a spouse -- in the optimal case, a person whom you met in high school, and who represents to you even more memories than all the property that you own.

To make it even merrier, there might be some children in this home -- not just any brats, but indeed your own children, on behalf of whom you have made innumerable economical and other sacrifices since their infancy, childhood, teenage...

Property would be a misleading word. I would speak of "rights to your own life history". This is what makes you most happy or potentially hurts you most.

And "winner takes it all" also reflects a combative, adversarial attitude towards relationships... its not about equality or sharing, it is about power and "winning".

I would describe the life of modern unmarried singles as continuous unlimited competition -- in economical terms, like hard capitalism.

The traditional cultures where the parents choose a spouse for their kids, I would describe like socialism (in economical terms), the entire community cooperating in order to arrange enough for anyone, and not more than enough for anyone.

 

[Wolfman]

. . .Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if given the opportunity, many Mosuo will learn and adapt quite rapidly, and will be able to take back control over the changes that are taking place in their communities/culture, and control their own futures. I don't really see this as "poverty alleviation"...I see it more as empowerment.

I am glad that the efforts are to help the Mosuo take control of their affairs and try cope with the future. Poverty alleviation is a nice effort, but many times it seems to lack real long term planning.

I gather from your posts that the Han Chinese have been (hmmm how to put this) very ignorant of the Mosuo and in some (many?) cases quite cruel. Do the Mosuo have other neighbors or allies that can help them transition and cope with the changes they are making? Also, I believe you had mentioned there were laws banning Mosuo religious practices. Have the Mosuo made any progress in gaining rights or protections, or are efforts still focused on rescinding the restrictions?

I hope all is well for you and the Mosuo and that you are all succesful in perserving as much of their culture and history as is possible.

This is a hard question to deal with, because it is politically sensitive, but I'll do my best to answer. To begin with, Communist doctrine teaches that society has different stages in evolution, Communism being the highest/best stage. Thus, all other stages are inferior, primitive, etc. So all education about minority groups in China tends to be very condescending, using terms such as "backwards", "primitive", "superstitious", etc. (Its useful to note that there are quite a few people in the West, both past and present, who tend to use the same labels). And the stated goal of the government was, until very recently, to get rid of those "primitive" cultures, and bring them all the benefits of Communism.

In the past, this led to significant abuses. The system of walking marriages was made illegal, and anyone caught in such a relationship could be imprisoned. Daba priests were outlawed from passing on their knowledge to younger people. Education was done exclusively in the Chinese language, and focused on hammering into them the idea that their culture was primitive and backwards.

The good news is that, today, this has really changed a lot. Walking marriages are now completely legal. Daba priests are allowed to train younger priests. And minority schools are actively encouraged to incorporate teaching about the local language and culture into their curriculum. In the latter case, this has proved to be a particular benefit to many minority groups in China, as children in younger minorities are no longer raised and educated to be ashamed of their own heritage. But for the Mosuo, since they have no written language, it is extremely difficult to develop any curriculum to teach that language...which is one of our main reasons for making the development of a written language so high a priority.

I can see a big shift in attitudes in China towards minorities. Among people who are over 35, and from a particular minority, there tends to be a sense of embarrassment or shame when they tell others they're from a particular minority; but among younger minority members, there is getting to be more and more of a sense of pride in their ethnic background. Responses from Han Chinese are changing, also. If I talk to Chinese who are over 35 about the Mosuo, their attitude is something like, "Well, that's nice, but they're backwards/primitive, they need to change"; whereas among younger Chinese, I'm finding great interest in learning more about the Mosuo, and of embracing their culture as fascinating and valuable.

Given past abuses, its not surprising that the Mosuo still tend to bear some grudges towards Han Chinese in general (and this is not helped by swarms of Chinese tourists who come and treat them like zoo exhibits, or who come just to have a "walking marriage" with a local girl). But they are also a very pragmatic people, and tend to take each person as an individual. In my own work with the Mosuo, I've brought both foreigners and Han Chinese to work with and help them on various projects; initially, certainly, the Mosuo tended to be more cautious or skeptical about the Chinese, than they did about the Westerners...but once those Chinese had demonstrated that they respected the Mosuo culture, and treated them as equals, there were no problems.

One further note...I believe I mentioned this earlier, but don't want to look back over everything to find the exact post! The Chinese gov't has a list of 56 "official" minorities in China. If you check that list, you will find that the Mosuo are not listed on it. They are, instead, lumped in with the Naxi, who are a completely different minority (different language, different religion, different culture); this is due to historic misunderstandings, and just plain lack of knowledge, when this list of minorities was first made. However, this is a critical issue, as the Chinese government does allocate money to each minority to help support their local development. But since the Mosuo are not an official minority, they do not receive such support...or they receive a much smaller portion, after most of it has been spent on the Naxi.

There have been some efforts to get the gov't to recognize the Mosuo as a separate minority, but thus far it has not happened...and is not likely to happen soon, either. The Mosuo are not the only group in China in this situation, there are a number of other groups that are also lobbying for recognition as a separate minority. From the gov't's point of view, the moment they recognize one such group, they're gonna' open a giant can of worms and have tons of similar claims. This (again, from their point of view) could cause "social instability", and a bureaucratic nightmare. So, the easiest way to deal with it is just say no to everybody.

 

[Wolfman]

The allegory is that when the working day ends at 16 o'clock, many people think it's nice to have a place to go -- "home" -- full of your personal property, memories and photos, and all that silly stuff from the past, which belong to you and no one else.

Many people also think that it is nice that the home where you go after work is furnished with a spouse -- in the optimal case, a person whom you met in high school, and who represents to you even more memories than all the property that you own.

To make it even merrier, there might be some children in this home -- not just any brats, but indeed your own children, on behalf of whom you have made innumerable economical and other sacrifices since their infancy, childhood, teenage...

Property would be a misleading word. I would speak of "rights to your own life history". This is what makes you most happy or potentially hurts you most.

I think that you are guilty of ethnocentrism here...of assuming that what you consider to be 'proper' or 'normal' is standard for everyone else. I in no way intend to state or imply that your own feelings on the subject are wrong. If you lived in the Mosuo culture, you would obviously not be fulfilled.

However, most of the Mosuo feel exactly the same way about your culture. Ask a Mosuo woman if she prefers walking marriages or 'real' marriages, and almost every one of them will say they prefer walking marriages. Why? Because if they get married, they have to deal with a whole new family that they don't know, and have no previous relationship with. Because they lose stability -- if the marriage doesn't work out, they could lose half their belongings, they could lose their child, etc. In their own culture, these things are non-issues.

I'd really encourage you to read more of what's been written here, first...much of what you're asking has already been addressed, and some of your questions seem to be based on misunderstandings that are entirely unnecessary.

In short -- if you're not going to take the time to read what's been written, and understand it, why should I take the time to answer questions that have already been addressed? I don't intend to take on too adversarial a tone here...but I can't take your inquiries as being terribly serious or sincere, if you can't take the time to understand what it is you are discussing.

 

[Hokulele]

Are all Daba priests male and how are they selected? I know you had mentioned earlier that Daba was penalized under the Communist system, but are the remaining priests allowed to selected and train potential new priests now?

 

[Wolfman]

Are all Daba priests male and how are they selected? I know you had mentioned earlier that Daba was penalized under the Communist system, but are the remaining priests allowed to selected and train potential new priests now?

Yes, Daba priests are exclusively male, and their teachings are usually passed on only to direct male descendants. As I've mentioned elsewhere in passing, the Daba priests are the only visible remainder of the patriarchal aspect of Mosuo culture. When the Mosuo had noble and peasant classes, the Daba priests were part of the nobility.

Thus, Daba priests do not practice walking marriages; they get married, and the woman they marry will come and live with them, and raise their children in the Daba's home. The reason for this is simple -- it is considered improper/unacceptable to train anyone outside of your own family in being a Daba priest, but in a walking marriage, his biological children would not actually be part of his family.

Because of the past gov't policies towards Daba priests, there is a major generation gap; almost all the existing priests are old men. They were not allowed to train their sons. And because the sons were not Daba priests, most of them just went along with the walking marriage tradition, and have no sons of their own living in their family. And even where there are grandchildren who could be taught, most of them simply aren't interested.

Consider how much work it takes. With no written language, a Mosuo priest must use rote memorization to remember everything...but if written down, there would be thousands upon thousands of pages of information. Not just chants and ceremonies, but family geneologies, oral traditions, historical (or mythical) stories, etc. Virtually the entire Mosuo history/culture/heritage is stored inside the Daba priests' heads.

There are currently efforts under way to convince some of the Daba priests to "liberalize" their beliefs, and offer training to non-family members. There's even been discussion of women being trained as Daba priests (again, those seeking to present this as an idealized culture with no discrimination and problems tend to overlook the fact that Mosuo women are denied the right to be Daba priests).

For me, its an area I've got really mixed feelings on. I myself am an atheist, and feel that certain aspects of the Daba faith really do damage and hold back the Mosuo (such as the aforementioned preference for Daba rituals over medical treatment for disease). On the other hand, the Daba priests are the keystone to the entire Mosuo culture. If we lose their knowledge, we lose the vast majority of Mosuo history and culture. And, again, I don't believe it should be up to outsiders to make decisions about religion, as well as any other area of Mosuo life.

At present, the biggest barrier to training new Daba priests is the priests themselves, and their unwillingness to break traditions that stretch back literally hundreds of years. There is a brilliant documentary that was done on this by a Chinese woman, called "Daba Sings", that covers these issues, and looks at one particular Daba priest over a period of about 10 years as he tries to train his sons (but is unsuccessful). The Daba religion focuses on ancestor worship, so honoring your ancestors is of extreme importance. As he says in the documentary, "I am the 14th generation of Daba priests in our family, passed from father to son for hundreds of years. If I fail to train my sons, then our family's tradition will die with me. But if I train someone outside of our family, I will shame my ancestors." From our perspective, it may seem irrational or closed-minded; but from their perspective, it is a very personal and difficult issue.

At present, a number of Mosuo are themselves seeking to at least make audio recordings of the Daba priests, and some of the priests have agreed to do this, so that if they do die without passing it on, at least some of their knowledge will be preserved. Developing a written language is, again, another crucial step in this regard.

 

[Caius Textor]

For me, its an area I've got really mixed feelings on. I myself am an atheist, and feel that certain aspects of the Daba faith really do damage and hold back the Mosuo (such as the aforementioned preference for Daba rituals over medical treatment for disease). On the other hand, the Daba priests are the keystone to the entire Mosuo culture. If we lose their knowledge, we lose the vast majority of Mosuo history and culture. And, again, I don't believe it should be up to outsiders to make decisions about religion, as well as any other area of Mosuo life.

Your understanding of this is not shared by most atheists or agnostics.

Some people become atheists out of anger towards christianity in particular. Something like "The church promoted the Crusades and the Inquisition, therefore all religion is crooked and should be banned".

I do agree that religion carries more harm than good. But I can´t blind myself and take the easy road of dismissing everything spawning from a religious source.

Priests of all kinds have a very important social role to play. The Mosuo case is emblematic, but the very same thing happened to us in Western Europe. We have a series of misconceptions that can be easily dismissed with so much as reading a decent history book.
The Middle Ages, unlike popular belief, wasn´t a terrible "dark age" where all human progress came to a halt. Granted, the Overlordship of the Church over all social life caused major damages. But it´s due to the efforts of Monks and Priests locked away in studies that a vast amount of knowledge survived those dark times. If it weren´t for the Monks we wouldn´t have any clue of Ancient philosophy, history, literature, science and so forth. Not only Greek and Roman. The Catholic priests also brought the knowledge of Arabs to Europe, discussing it and copying their works (including those concerning Greek knowledge that was lost in Europe for centuries due to wars).

Removing the priests from their cultural sorroundings is throwing away the baby along with the bath-water (damned local expression!)

 

[Piscivore]

Your understanding of this is not shared by most atheists or agnostics.

Some people become atheists out of anger towards christianity in particular. Something like "The church promoted the Crusades and the Inquisition, therefore all religion is crooked and should be banned".

I do agree that religion carries more harm than good. But I can´t blind myself and take the easy road of dismissing everything spawning from a religious source.

Priests of all kinds have a very important social role to play. The Mosuo case is emblematic, but the very same thing happened to us in Western Europe. We have a series of misconceptions that can be easily dismissed with so much as reading a decent history book.
The Middle Ages, unlike popular belief, wasn´t a terrible "dark age" where all human progress came to a halt. Granted, the Overlordship of the Church over all social life caused major damages. But it´s due to the efforts of Monks and Priests locked away in studies that a vast amount of knowledge survived those dark times. If it weren´t for the Monks we wouldn´t have any clue of Ancient philosophy, history, literature, science and so forth. Not only Greek and Roman. The Catholic priests also brought the knowledge of Arabs to Europe, discussing it and copying their works (including those concerning Greek knowledge that was lost in Europe for centuries due to wars).

Removing the priests from their cultural sorroundings is throwing away the baby along with the bath-water (damned local expression!)

Excellent posts, both of you.

 

[JJM 777]

Having glanced through the entire thread now, I would be inclined to believe that this form of life would not stand open competition against the more common ideal of one man and one woman taking care of their children.

Increasing exposure to the outer world will most probably take its toll soon, and an ever growing portion of the next generations will prefer the monogamous dream family to a walking one. As has been the case with nudism and many other similar ideologies and practices.

The western culture is a best-selling product, and I expect it to sell good to these people too in the near future. And I don't think I will have any regrets about that. Museums are for history, it is not necessary or practical to save everything.

 

[Hokulele]

Wolfman, before you waste too much time responding to JJM, read his posting history.

 

[Wolfman]

Wolfman, before you waste too much time responding to JJM, read his posting history.

lol -- he's already reached his conclusions, anyway...see no need for further response, thanks

 

[Wolfman]

Well, some very good news! A Swiss tourism company, Hidden China, has partnered with us to offer "culturally responsible" tours to visit the Mosuo. Instead of the 'normal' tour that people will take, which involves tour guides who understand little about the culture, and living in a tourist trap that has almost nothing to do with traditional Mosuo culture, we will provide tour guides from our own organization, and take people to live in real Mosuo villages, staying in local family homes (instead of in a hotel). We've already had two "trial" groups, and it went amazingly well!

There are also plans to organize mountain biking tours through the local mountains, to visit different villages; and horse treks through the mountains, perhaps even a horse trek from Lugu Lake to Tibet (it would be about a 10 day horse-back ride through the mountains).

Not only does this give tourists a more realistic understanding of the Mosuo and their culture, but a portion of the profits from each trip are donated to our organization. In addition to that, every group that we've had come so far has, after seeing what we are doing, and meeting the Mosuo themselves, offered to donate money to help us out.

Yet another small, but important step in our development

 

[Hokulele]

I took a look at their brochure. Very impressive! If only I had the time . . .

 

[Wolfman]

Hey...wow...this thread is now featured in the Forum Spotlight! Truly, my thanks to everyone who's contributed to this topic!

 

[JamesM]

You mentioned that dogs are revered, Wolfman, and that most households have a large number. Are there many different breeds? What sort of role do they play - are they used for pets and for hunting?