A universe with God.

[exarch]

Originally posted by Iacchus

Exactly. That's what the rest of us believe: there are no consequences except those we impose on ourselves or others.

Hey if you want to stand out in the freezing cold buck naked that's entirely up to you, but don't tell me you won't be suffering the consequences.

How do you equate the moral consequences of our actions or choices (i.e. guilt) with the physical effects of entirely different actions?

I kill a man, God sends me to burn in hell forever.
I kill a man, I feel remorse, guilt, and have nightmares years from now.

Perhaps even:
I kill a man, I go to jail for two decades (not a moral consequence, but one we've imposed on others).

But:
I kill a man, I freeze my w*nker off?

I turn left at the traffic lights and go to hell? Had I turned right I'd still be OK?

Does anyone need to explain the difference to you between moral actions and choices and physical ones? That might explain why you are not making much sense in the first place though.

 

[CWL]

And yet there's a lesson to be learned in everything.

Hey if you want to stand out in the freezing cold buck naked that's entirely up to you, but don't tell me you won't be suffering the consequences.

Assiduous as I am, I feel compelled to ask the same question again:

How can earthquakes and HIV be a consequence of free will ?!?

It feels like the zillionth time this has been asked in this thread. Pray tell why do the believers in an omnipotent and benevolent supreme being appear to feel the need to ignore this very simple question?

 

[Tricky]

Please provide a link to the supposed thread where Tricky is arguing there is such a thing as karma, so I can verify for myself whether he's merely being ironic or sarcastic or somehow joking, or is in fact dead-serious.

I think lacchus is trying to refer to this post, but I am afraid he has totally misinterpreted my meaning. My point was that there are indeed social and legal consequences of your acts, but not supernatural ones. I only agreed that punishment is a factor in controlling people. This is a fact that religion siezed upon very quickly and tried to make up for the fact that it did not have the ability to actually enforce "proper" behavior, by substituting imagined punishment.

No, I have no belief in karma. It is just another attempt to feel better about being powerless in this life by imagining retribution in another life.

Or what was it one poster said?
"My fate keeps interfering with my destiny. I guess that's just my karma."

 

[Iacchus]

Assiduous as I am, I feel compelled to ask the same question again:

How can earthquakes and HIV be a consequence of free will ?!?

It feels like the zillionth time this has been asked in this thread. Pray tell why do the believers in an omnipotent and benevolent supreme being appear to feel the need to ignore this very simple question?

What difference does it make? When your number is up your number is up. And, upon death if the material world is all there is your suffering will cease or, if there is an afterlife, things will get sorted out at that point. What else is there to say?

 

[Iacchus]

How do you equate the moral consequences of our actions or choices (i.e. guilt) with the physical effects of entirely different actions?

I kill a man, God sends me to burn in hell forever.
I kill a man, I feel remorse, guilt, and have nightmares years from now.

Perhaps even:
I kill a man, I go to jail for two decades (not a moral consequence, but one we've imposed on others).

But:
I kill a man, I freeze my w*nker off?

I turn left at the traffic lights and go to hell? Had I turned right I'd still be OK?

Or, what if you kill a man and it pisses off his brother and his brother comes back to kill you? That kind of sounds like karma and/or justice to me.

Does anyone need to explain the difference to you between moral actions and choices and physical ones? That might explain why you are not making much sense in the first place though.

I think what I said in the beginning (or meant to say) was that God allows us to learn from our mistakes. However, that isn't to say I don't believe in karma either.

 

[Tricky]

Assiduous as I am, I feel compelled to ask the same question again:

How can earthquakes and HIV be a consequence of free will ?!?

It feels like the zillionth time this has been asked in this thread. Pray tell why do the believers in an omnipotent and benevolent supreme being appear to feel the need to ignore this very simple question?

Yes, CWL, your assiduousness is legendary.

But allow me to answer for the believers (or at least some of them, based on my discussions with them.) Natural disasters, diseases and such are brought on by man as punisment for them using their free will to do evil. Oh, it's not limited to punishing the evil-doer, but that's what caused it. Recall tlhe story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Wicked wicked wicked. They didn't have to be wicked, but by God they (and their innocent children) suffered retribution for using their free will to do so. Then of course, there is the whole "Noah" thing.

Some years back, when AIDS was just starting to become news, a lot of bible-thumpers suggested that this was God punishing gays and drug-users for their sin. There hasn't been much of this talk since it was found that female homosexuals have a much lower incidence of AIDS than in the general populace. They couldn't seem to abide the same logic that would suggest that God thinks lesbians are less sinful than heterosexuals.

 

[Tricky]

Or, what if you kill a man and it pisses off his brother and his brother comes back to kill you? That kind of sounds like karma and/or justice to me.

But it is not karma, which is much different from justice. Karma specifically applys to your soul, not your body. I think that what you are talking about here is simple revenge, a very earthly concept, requiring no supernatural intervention.

I think what I said in the beginning (or meant to say) was that God allows us to learn from our mistakes. However, that isn't to say I don't believe in karma either.

Do you not think that we could not learn from our mistakes by using our brains alone? Why do we need God's permission?

 

[Pahansiri]

What difference does it make? When your number is up your number is up. And, upon death if the material world is all there is your suffering will cease or, if there is an afterlife, things will get sorted out at that point. What else is there to say?

You could answer what is asked, for once.

 

[Iacchus]

I think lacchus is trying to refer to this post, but I am afraid he has totally misinterpreted my meaning. My point was that there are indeed social and legal consequences of your acts, but not supernatural ones. I only agreed that punishment is a factor in controlling people. This is a fact that religion siezed upon very quickly and tried to make up for the fact that it did not have the ability to actually enforce "proper" behavior, by substituting imagined punishment.

And yet were talking about suffering the consequences of our actions now weren't we?

This is what scares me about spiritual people. It is obvious that the only thing restraining them from being homocidal maniacs is their fear of repurcussions. Atheists, on the other hand, behave morally because of empathy for their fellow human beings. Which one of these would you trust more?

On the contrary, I think Atheists are just as much afraid of the repurcussions as anyone else, for instance like going to jail?

Or, perhaps you're making the assumption that all Atheits think like you?

 

[Iacchus]

You could answer what is asked, for once.

And what is it about my answer that you have a problem with?

 

[Tricky]

And yet were talking about suffering the consequences of our actions now weren't we?

Yes, and I agree that people respond to the threat of punisment. If you have not the enforcement ability to actually punish people, you can always invent some deity or karmic concept to do so. It doesn't make those deities exist, but it makes you feel better.

I tell you what. I will gladly accept all of your supernatural consequences of your bad actions if you will accept all the real-world consequences of mine. Starting with this parking ticket...

 

[Iacchus]

But it is not karma, which is much different from justice. Karma specifically applys to your soul, not your body. I think that what you are talking about here is simple revenge, a very earthly concept, requiring no supernatural intervention.

"Judge not lest ye be judged." So, isn't karma just another word for justice?

Do you not think that we could not learn from our mistakes by using our brains alone? Why do we need God's permission?

No, because we don't get a sense of value from what we think, but rather what we feel.

 

[Pahansiri]

But it is not karma, which is much different from justice. Karma specifically applys to your soul, not your body.

Greetings my friend Tricky.

Your statement would be partially right if you are speaking about Hindu and some others beliefs view of karma but not Buddhism’s.

There are different beliefs as to how karma works.

Buddhism does not believe in a soul or self. We do believe in a true nature of mind that has no individual personality/self etc.

Buddhist or Buddha’s belief in the working of Karma is it is simply cause and effect, action and more so intentional action. And while we believe it attaches to the mind from rebirth to rebirth until the mind realizes it’s true nature/full awakening it does not always arise.

Example in some beliefs it is believed that if you say hit someone with an ax, you will be hit with an ax. That is not our belief. We simply believe in cause and effect, an action that is harmful will bring about suffering an action helpful, non harming brings about happiness.

A negative action will only arise if the causes and conditions arise to allow it.


Karma can apply to the “body” in that things could occur as to the body causing suffering of course the suffering is in reality mind.

As to is it justice, well I guess one could say in a way it is but we do not see it as “personal” or that someone is dealing it out anyone but ourselves. Karma is simply cause and effect to us.


Just what I believe.


Be well I hope all is well in the lone star state.

 

[Pahansiri]

And what is it about my answer that you have a problem with?

It was not an answer it was a dance

around directly answering as is so often the case with you.


It is a simple question how is it free will if I am killed by an earthquake or someone who wishes to kill me even thought I do not desire to be killed. Does only negative free will matter to your god?

 

[Pahansiri]

 

[Iacchus]

Yes, and I agree that people respond to the threat of punisment. If you have not the enforcement ability to actually punish people, you can always invent some deity or karmic concept to do so. It doesn't make those deities exist, but it makes you feel better.

I tell you what. I will gladly accept all of your supernatural consequences of your bad actions if you will accept all the real-world consequences of mine. Starting with this parking ticket...

And as much as I despise them, I usually pay them, except for this one time ...

Parking Ticket Fiasco

I will not abide by this crap!
This is a victimless crime.
I did not do this willfully.
It was late at night -- after 9 p.m.
The signs at the entrance were not lit up.
There was no gate there.
The parking lot was not lit up.
There was no attendant there.
The office was closed.
Both myself and my passenger concluded it was okay to park.
The other cars in the lot only added to the deception.
Do the meters on the street work this late?
I could have just as easily parked there. I usually do.
What kind of racket is this!
Why should I be punished for something that was unintentional?
It was the first time I parked there -- and it will no doubt be the last!
I've gotten other parking tickets before, and I've paid them, but this takes the cake.
And what about people who are from out of town, or those who don't come to town very often?
How many other unwitting victims have you suckered into this trap?
The $14.50 is more than what I paid for Dinner!
What are you trying to discourage local businesses from operating?
This is taxation without representation, and it's extortion.
So who's the real criminal?
Damn you! Scheming and scamming hypocrites! Bloodsuckers!
Damn your bureaucratic ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊!
Perhaps somebody should file a lawsuit against you, and you should be held accountable for your actions!
Les Miserables! To one and all!

P.S. At the very least I will send a copy to The Oregonian (local newspaper). And thanks for nothing!

Well obviously I was pissed off and I didn't pay it. And, in spite of all their threats and warnings, they eventually dropped it.

 

[Iacchus]

As to is it justice, well I guess one could say in a way it is but we do not see it as “personal” or that someone is dealing it out anyone but ourselves. Karma is simply cause and effect to us.

Except in the case where the victim wants vindication and is more than happy to return the favor.

 

[Pahansiri]

Except in the case where the victim wants vindication and is more than happy to return the favor.

My friend you must read what is written and seek to understand what is said not what you wish it to say.

I was speaking about the law of cause and effect not a person and what they may choose to do.


Now how about an answer to
It is a simple question how is it free will if I am killed by an earthquake or someone who wishes to kill me even thought I do not desire to be killed. Does only negative free will matter to your god?

 

[Iacchus]

My friend you must read what is written and seek to understand what is said not what you wish it to say.

I was speaking about the law of cause and effect not a person and what they may choose to do.

Yes, but the effect could be that you make somebody very unhappy which, could be the cause that they come back and kick the crap out of you!

Now how about an answer to
It is a simple question how is it free will if I am killed by an earthquake or someone who wishes to kill me even thought I do not desire to be killed. Does only negative free will matter to your god?

As I already said, what difference does it make? Are you implying that I should feel something differently?

 

[metacristi]

If one has the power to create everything, why even create such a concept as "evil"? I want a refund.

The usual theist answer is that the 'moral evil' is our creation and the existence of the so called 'metaphysical evils' (earthquakes and so on) is deceptive they making part from God's plan,not understood by us for we do not have the overall picture,necessary for the creation of a higher 'good' (metaphysical evil being warnings of God given to humans to cease being evil without interfering with their free will).The usual objection here is that when innocent childrens die in accidents or are killed the necessity to preserve free will and the necessity to punish humans for their moral evils is not an excuse for an all good Being.Why doesn't God save those kids,or at least some of them?One reply is that those childrens will go to Heaven anyway.Another one is that maybe God has saved many of them only that we do not have sufficient reasons to attribute those cases to him (indeed there are many who say,on good reason,that the fact that they survived some critical events is a 'miracle').

As a conclusion God's ways might be incomprehensible for us but this does not make him less all good.One has to prove first that our world is not the best world possible in the actual conditions if they want 'the argument of evil' to be sound.Finally this argument is as unsound logically as those which try to prove the necessary existence of a personal God...I'm afraid logic alone is never enough to settle the problem of God's existence/non existence...