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A Thermite/Thermate Question

Gypsum is formed in volcanic activity ,the gypsum is heated to higher temperatures than 850degrees where is the sulpur release?

In volcanic districts gypsum is produced by the action of sulphuric acid, resulting from the oxidation of sulphurous vapours, on lime-bearing minerals, like labradorite and augite, in the volcanic rocks: hence gypsum is common around solfataras.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Gypsum

If you understand anything about chemical reaction kinetics, it should be clear that gypsum forms at high temperatures only when there is an excess of sulphur oxides from other sources. The direction of chemical reactions that reach a dynamic equilibrium depends on the concentrations of the reagents present. In the rubble fires at the WTC, there was no external source of sulphur oxides to bias the equlilibrium in favour of gypsum formation, so the sulphur oxides escaped from the region around the gypsum. Hence the sulphur concentration was low enough for the reaction to proceed in the direction of decomposition, rather than formation, of gypsum.

Dave
 
he also points to the Manganese and Potassium claiming that it came from Potassium Permanganate a pretty common reducting agent. This ignores that Manganese is added to structural steel to make it stronger by acting as a sulphur reducing agent however.


A reliable source (my mother, who has a PhD in Organic Chemistry) had this to say about this.

Mom said:
[Jones] referred to potassium permanganate as a reducing agent. Manganese in permanganate is already in its highest oxidation state, so it cannot get further oxidized by acting as a reducing agent. Potassium permaganate is a common OXIDIZING agent.


Heh, my Mom reads the CT sub-forum. I wonder if Dad knows...
 
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Gypsum

If you understand anything about chemical reaction kinetics, it should be clear that gypsum forms at high temperatures only when there is an excess of sulphur oxides from other sources. The direction of chemical reactions that reach a dynamic equilibrium depends on the concentrations of the reagents present. In the rubble fires at the WTC, there was no external source of sulphur oxides to bias the equlilibrium in favour of gypsum formation, so the sulphur oxides escaped from the region around the gypsum. Hence the sulphur concentration was low enough for the reaction to proceed in the direction of decomposition, rather than formation, of gypsum.

Dave

Gypsum is reduce by carbon in a reducing atmosphere, into Calcium carbonate, and sulfide, sulfide reacts with iron to form pyrites enlarged Iron sulfide crystals.

Hot oxidizing volcanic sulfides, from calcium carbonate by breaking down the carbon dioxide calcium bond by the heat, however that does not happen with carbon in a reducing atmosphere because the only oxygen the carbon can bond to is the Oxygen that bonds the sulfate to the calcium which reduces the sulfate into a sulfide.

IT is similar to the process of refining iron ore in a reducing environment, Fe 304, into Fe using carbon to absorb the Oxygen of the Fe 304 giving off carbon dioxide in the process.

Nothing Dr. Jones has shown is indicative of thermite or thermates and to this date he is just a joke on himself his work is meaningless, He can not even test a device that will accomplish what he proposes was achieved on 9/11/2001.

All Dr. Jones has done is lead people on a wild thermite goose chase.
 
Gypsum is reduce by carbon in a reducing atmosphere, into Calcium carbonate, and sulfide, sulfide reacts with iron to form pyrites enlarged Iron sulfide crystals.

Hot oxidizing volcanic sulfides, from calcium carbonate by breaking down the carbon dioxide calcium bond by the heat, however that does not happen with carbon in a reducing atmosphere because the only oxygen the carbon can bond to is the Oxygen that bonds the sulfate to the calcium which reduces the sulfate into a sulfide.

IT is similar to the process of refining iron ore in a reducing environment, Fe 304, into Fe using carbon to absorb the Oxygen of the Fe 304 giving off carbon dioxide in the process.

Nothing Dr. Jones has shown is indicative of thermite or thermates and to this date he is just a joke on himself his work is meaningless, He can not even test a device that will accomplish what he proposes was achieved on 9/11/2001.

All Dr. Jones has done is lead people on a wild thermite goose chase.


well yea my previous posts dispute that and show that thermite is a valid claim,sulpur itself is not indicitave of thermate.But sulphidization of steel is indicitiave of high temperatures.
The iron sphericles are indicitive of thermite
 
well yea my previous posts dispute that and show that thermite is a valid claim,sulpur itself is not indicitave of thermate.But sulphidization of steel is indicitiave of high temperatures.
The iron sphericles are indicitive of thermite

Are you trying to make me laugh, Iron, Aluminum, and silicon dioxide spheres, from Aluminum oxide abrasive bonded with silicon dioxide glue to form steel cutting disks, Such spheres, literally litter the ground in urban areas.

PS. sulphidization also can occur when steel oxidizes, or reacts with certain chemical compounds sulphidization is just another expected phenomena in the collapses.

Chloride from PVC can be a catalyzing agent, in sulphidisation of steel, also.

Sulphidization, is only evidence for the presence of sulfur such as the sulfur in lead acid batteries, High sulfur diesel fuel, human bodies, do you wish me to go on naming sources, how about hydrogen sulfide from sewer water entering broken pipes in the basements?

Sulfur is generally used in thermate as an ingredient to enhance burn rate by utilizing the oxygen in the crude Iron ore a blend of Fe 304, and Silicon dioxide,- sandstone.
The sulfur burns into a sulfate using the silicon dioxide as the oxygen source, producing SO2 gas.

Sulfur can also be added to thermite for a fluxing effect, however the effect is only temporary as the sulfur reacts with oxygen in air, to form SO2.

Sulphidization is most often the result of a sulfide not a sulfate, however under certain circumstances a sulfate can interact with iron, however that interaction can occur without high temperature, if a catalyzing agent is present, such a chlorate, chloride, or fluoride.

IT is more complicated than just saying I found Sulphidization-sulfur, so thermite was used.
 
The effect of sulfur was noted only on a small portion of steel taken from WTC 7, as I recall (someone correct me if it was more widespread than that) and the fact that the effect was limited throws any assertion that thermite was used into severe doubt.

Also: That piece of steel was examined only after it had spent much time in the rubble pile. The erosion noted could have easily occurred well after Building 7 fell. That fact also throws the use of such erosion to support thermite hypotheses in doubt.

But even in the absence of the first two arguments, the thesis that the sulfur effects prove thermite use still fails. The eutectic effects that form the basis of this claim would simply not be present if thermite were indeed used. The sulfur-based erosion does indeed indicate fairly high temperatures, but it is not valid to say that it demonstrates temperatures associated with thermite use. It does not; it actually demonstrates that such temperatures could not have been reached. The presence of an iron-oxide/iron-sulfide eutectic - the "sulfurization effect" under discussion here - could not survive above 1000 degrees C. You'd simply end up with actual molten iron, not an iron-oxide/iron-sulfide mix. The claim that thermite was used simply cannot be supported and in fact is contradicted by the observation of erosion and the presence of an iron-sulfide eutectic. It is ironic to make that argument because thermite use would have obliterated the very piece of evidence used to support the claim.

-----

I've already discussed the microparticles ("sphericles"). Simply claiming they're indicative of thermite does not make it so, and it certainly doesn't address the rebuttal given before.
 
I personally took a core sample from the wreckage the day of. My research clearly indicates that within the debris exist the same atomic components that also exist in...Cheeseburgers. Therefore I can say without fail that WTC was brought down by a secretly planted particularly voliatile quarter pounder.

Huh? Simply claiming it doesn't make it so? How frightfully novel!

There seems to be a logical explanation for every substance found within the wreckage of WTC. I don't expect the government to waste thousands of man-hours and millions of dollars investigating a ridiculous dead-end.
 
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well yea my previous posts dispute that and show that thermite is a valid claim,sulpur itself is not indicitave of thermate.But sulphidization of steel is indicitiave of high temperatures.
The iron sphericles are indicitive of thermite
Simple research shows Jones made up the thermite scenario without a single piece of evidence (Septembers 2005; look up his first letter on the subject). Thermite would leave large piles of products of the thermite reaction. No evidence of thermite was found at the WTC.

Jones made up his story four years after 9/11. You have been fooled and you have no evidence to support Jones ideas. 7 years of no evidence; You can not back in evidence now, it is too late.
 
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The effect of sulfur was noted only on a small portion of steel taken from WTC 7, as I recall (someone correct me if it was more widespread than that) and the fact that the effect was limited throws any assertion that thermite was used into severe doubt.

Also: That piece of steel was examined only after it had spent much time in the rubble pile. The erosion noted could have easily occurred well after Building 7 fell. That fact also throws the use of such erosion to support thermite hypotheses in doubt.

But even in the absence of the first two arguments, the thesis that the sulfur effects prove thermite use still fails. The eutectic effects that form the basis of this claim would simply not be present if thermite were indeed used. The sulfur-based erosion does indeed indicate fairly high temperatures, but it is not valid to say that it demonstrates temperatures associated with thermite use. It does not; it actually demonstrates that such temperatures could not have been reached. The presence of an iron-oxide/iron-sulfide eutectic - the "sulfurization effect" under discussion here - could not survive above 1000 degrees C. You'd simply end up with actual molten iron, not an iron-oxide/iron-sulfide mix. The claim that thermite was used simply cannot be supported and in fact is contradicted by the observation of erosion and the presence of an iron-sulfide eutectic. It is ironic to make that argument because thermite use would have obliterated the very piece of evidence used to support the claim.

-----

I've already discussed the microparticles ("sphericles"). Simply claiming they're indicative of thermite does not make it so, and it certainly doesn't address the rebuttal given before.

Well the molten iron did melt away like you said ,thats why the steel had swiss cheese like holes through it.The iron oxide sulfide is the eutectic mixture which residue was left on the surface after the majority of the thermate had already reacted.

Most of the steel was shipped away ,fema did not conduct an extensive search for deformed steel ,a few volunteers managed to find these two peice of sulphidized steel one from 7 the other from 1,2.
Fema also says that the sulphidization came from highly concentrated sulpur ,this is unlike Acid Rain and your other exuses.

As for the Iron spheres ...
Multiple tests of the dust show 5-6% iron sphericles.This is far more than the .04% iron sphericles in normal office buildings.Normal office buildings have steel ,and we can assume they had steel welders too.They also have printers.
They also have fly ash from distant coal plants and in concrete too.Another source is micrometeriotes which are constantly hitting the ground.
5-6% of the wtc dust equates to Tonnes of Molten iron . I dont beleive that Tonnes of molten iron sphericles came from the steel cutting operations + the Lack of Oxygen in the XEDS in rj lee report show that it cant be from Oxycatelene torches.

The tests also showed molten molybdenum which requires 2623degrees.
Also seen was vapourised alumino silicates which require 2760 degrees.

To form FE-O -S =1000 degrees
To form molten iron =1538 dg
to vapourise lead = 1740 dg
to melt molbdenum= 2623
to vapourise aluminosilicates=2760 degress

>The maximum temperatures of WTC fires 1000 degrees...

When Nist was asked Did you test the Steel for Thermite Arson ? the answer was no.
 
Well the molten iron did melt away like you said ,thats why the steel had swiss cheese like holes through it.The iron oxide sulfide is the eutectic mixture which residue was left on the surface after the majority of the thermate had already reacted.

That's pure speculation, unfounded and unphysical. There's no justification for thermite having melted holes through the beam, rather than melting the entire beam. Why would the action of thermate, which is purely thermal in this context, be so highly localised, and (most importantly) how could melting result in thinning of the edges, when a melted edge is normally beaded due to surface tension?

Fema also says that the sulphidization came from highly concentrated sulpur ,this is unlike Acid Rain and your other exuses.

FEMA actually stated, didn't they, that drywall was the probable source of the sulphur? You're quoting a report which concludes that the sulphidisation was a result of decomposition of drywall to support the claim that it wasn't. Do I need to point out the problem with that line of argument?

Dave
 
overt signs like the sulphidization of steel.Where is the steel to look at it was all shipped away.

BS. It was examined at Fresh Kills and no sign of thermite cutting was found. The only sulphidated steel was the Swiss cheese steel from WTC 7 and that was in no way damaged by thermite. Thermite would not thin steel or leave copper and pyrites in the grain of the metal. Sulphuric acid from the fires and storage batteries would. Pay attention to what others post in repsonse to your comments.

Oh yea one more point the sideway thermite cutter being 'invented' after 911,well its well known that the research in these products is done by military then its invented 20-30 years later by a Private firm connected to the military ,how convenient

I made a kind of thermite cutter 40 years ago, while on active duty. It worked sort of like the commercial device. I have not seen the first picture anywhere, in all of those that have been released of the rubble pile, which in any way resembles a record of the action of such a device. Not ONE!

As for that piece that Jones showed us that was big enough to pick up in his hand, it was taken from a piece of steel being transported to a site for a memorial. It was not a full-sized beam, which means it had been cut to size.

(Probably with a thermal lance.)

Jones wouldn't know evidence if it bit him on the hand.
 
Let's see here...24 tons of that steel you're looking for was recycled into the bow section of LPD-21 USS New York. Sorry to inconvenience you, but someone thought it would be a good idea to make it into a symbol of our nation's strength and determination. I'm sure if you go ahead and send a request to Northrop Grumman Ship Systems they'd be more than happy to test it for thermite residue.
 
Well the molten iron did melt away like you said ,thats why the steel had swiss cheese like holes through it.The iron oxide sulfide is the eutectic mixture which residue was left on the surface after the majority of the thermate had already reacted.

Most of the steel was shipped away ,fema did not conduct an extensive search for deformed steel ,a few volunteers managed to find these two peice of sulphidized steel one from 7 the other from 1,2.
Fema also says that the sulphidization came from highly concentrated sulpur ,this is unlike Acid Rain and your other exuses.

As for the Iron spheres ...
Multiple tests of the dust show 5-6% iron sphericles.This is far more than the .04% iron sphericles in normal office buildings.Normal office buildings have steel ,and we can assume they had steel welders too.They also have printers.
They also have fly ash from distant coal plants and in concrete too.Another source is micrometeriotes which are constantly hitting the ground.
5-6% of the wtc dust equates to Tonnes of Molten iron . I dont beleive that Tonnes of molten iron sphericles came from the steel cutting operations + the Lack of Oxygen in the XEDS in rj lee report show that it cant be from Oxycatelene torches.

The tests also showed molten molybdenum which requires 2623degrees.
Also seen was vapourised alumino silicates which require 2760 degrees.

To form FE-O -S =1000 degrees
To form molten iron =1538 dg
to vapourise lead = 1740 dg
to melt molbdenum= 2623
to vapourise aluminosilicates=2760 degress

>The maximum temperatures of WTC fires 1000 degrees...

When Nist was asked Did you test the Steel for Thermite Arson ? the answer was no.

First of all, you need to understand what a eutectic is, because it's obvious that your fallacy is based on the thought that it demonstrates melting. R.Mackey gives a good explanation here, and I suggest you read it to disabuse yourself of the notion that the steel actually melted. In sum, the "swiss cheese" appearance did not come from any steel melting, but from the eutectic reaction, which does not require the steel to melt in order to get the erosion noted by Astaneh-Asl, Sisson, Biederman, and others.

The sources for sulfur in the towers is myriad, and listing them is useless. As I've said many times in the past, any attempt to prove thermite use through chemical analysis is useless, as many of these items already exist and are expected to be found in the towers wreckage. The thesis fails on the lack of gross physical evidence. And no, erosion in isolated pieces of steel does not rise to that level, unless you posit that a single section out of tower 7, and those two pieces from the main towers were the only ones affected by thermite, since no other pieces that I'm aware of displayed the chemical erosion. At that point, you'd need to explain how the main towers collapsed through the thermite cutting of only two pieces. But that's starting to get into speculation here; the fact is that the eroded examples are not indicative of the state of all the recovered steel. Those were isolated cases.

And that still doesn't rebut the issue that any of the steel recovered was sitting in the rubble pile and experiencing the thermo- and chemical stew that was occuring in the rubble fires. The erosion could have happened post collapse, and nothing the conspiracy peddlers have presented proves that it didn't.

Regarding the microspheres: You cannot blithely take the ratio of microspheres in the dust and compare them against buildings of unspecified construction or percentages of material. On top of that, you're obviously relying on the RJ Lee report, page 24, for your figures; that's where they set out the amount of iron spheres found in the dust post collapse vs. background. Read that again: The amount of iron spheres found in the dust post collapse (i.e. liberated from a collapsed building) vs. background (i.e. just normal dust recovered from standing buildings, without fires or structural collapse involved). You're comparing an event which liberated much material into the air with the background figure, in which no building is even on fire, let alone destroyed. Of course the WTC analysis would show more spherules! As well as a host of other materials! A more valid figure to have used would have been a comparison of WTC dust with other buildings that have combusted and/or collapsed. But even then a researcher would have to account for the differences in relative amounts of steel used, and it's a moot point anyway because you're not even getting to that point.

The molybdenum and aluminosilicates did not necessarily mean that the WTC fires burned hotter, because you cannot isolate their origin to the fires or September 11th. Jones, being the only one who's tried to use that angle, has not presented any evidence that pegs the genesis of the particles he cites to have been on that date. Anything he presents could have been the result of construction processes, or the result of manufacture of the materials used. Or, post collapse, of the chemical reactions occuring in the rubble pile fires. But he tries to peg them to the tower fires without any evidence, and that's just sloppy reasoning.

No, NIST did not test for thermite. As has been noted countless times in the past, testing for thermite components would be useless, because the main constituents of thermite - aluminum, and other metal oxides - would be fully expected regardless of the presence of thermite, because aluminum in the form of the facade, and metal oxides in the form of rust is just naturally present. When no consideration is taken of the lack of indicative physical characteristics - molten end points, where the steel beams would have been separated by these proposed thermite "cutting charges" - then any chemical analysis is moot.

The thermite hypothesis is a dead, lifeless one, with no new findings around to reanimate it. Just let it rest in peace.
 
Well the molten iron did melt away like you said ,thats why the steel had swiss cheese like holes through it.The iron oxide sulfide is the eutectic mixture which residue was left on the surface after the majority of the thermate had already reacted.

Most of the steel was shipped away ,fema did not conduct an extensive search for deformed steel ,a few volunteers managed to find these two peice of sulphidized steel one from 7 the other from 1,2.
Fema also says that the sulphidization came from highly concentrated sulpur ,this is unlike Acid Rain and your other exuses.

As for the Iron spheres ...
Multiple tests of the dust show 5-6% iron sphericles.This is far more than the .04% iron sphericles in normal office buildings.Normal office buildings have steel ,and we can assume they had steel welders too.They also have printers.
They also have fly ash from distant coal plants and in concrete too.Another source is micrometeriotes which are constantly hitting the ground.
5-6% of the wtc dust equates to Tonnes of Molten iron . I dont beleive that Tonnes of molten iron sphericles came from the steel cutting operations + the Lack of Oxygen in the XEDS in rj lee report show that it cant be from Oxycatelene torches.

The tests also showed molten molybdenum which requires 2623degrees.
Also seen was vapourised alumino silicates which require 2760 degrees.

To form FE-O -S =1000 degrees
To form molten iron =1538 dg
to vapourise lead = 1740 dg
to melt molbdenum= 2623
to vapourise aluminosilicates=2760 degress

>The maximum temperatures of WTC fires 1000 degrees...

When Nist was asked Did you test the Steel for Thermite Arson ? the answer was no.


Fly ash spheres of Fe 304 form at 540c, steel can be oxidized at as little as 600c, and Oxidizing steel produces heat enough heat to form microspheres.

The device proposed by Jones is a thermite initiated steel oxidation device, where is the evidence such devices were used, where is the physical visual, unmistakable evidence?

Why has Dr. Jones never tested the device he describes as being used?

IS it because he knows that the moment he test such a device, it will make his statements and pseudo Science, the stupidest thing said by anyone on the INTERNET?

When energy acts upon a mass the mass physically records that interaction on its very structure the more energy the more likely the energy changes the mass.
With high energy effects like explosives or high temperature materials like thermite Oxidizing devices, you do not need to test you can see the evidence with your own eyes.

So where is the evidence, the visible easily seen evidence that would have been left behind and unmistakable?
 
This is just some of the police gear recovered from the WTC after 9/11. It belonged to some of the 23 officers that died that day. Funny that this sort of stuff survived and was able to be located during the recovery, but not one therm*te cutter was found....
 
I would like to see the evidence too , most of it was shipped away .I have seen some photos of wtc debris some of the Steel looks like its been burned through.
Although alot of the steel has clean cuts.Some doesnt,
Does anyone have a good link for photos of wtc debris .

Any evidence would be dismissed as from oxycetlene cutting torches or thermites lances ,or suphidization from battery acid .So how can you win?

Nano thermite residue would be interesting to study and compare too .Because i dont think they would be stupid enough to use thermite variables which left visible evidence.

heres the link to the Thermite gun, which shoots thermite.Once again this will come from the military who will use a much more advanced version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-MCCZ3O1M

""a comparison of WTC dust with other buildings that have combusted and/or collapsed""
Yes this comparison would be lovely if you have any sources.
Because RJ lee who have experience in such activities claimed that the vapourised molydmenum was caused by high temperatures.The Fact that it and the alumino silicates are spherical indicate it was once molten, and i dont know if they are used in construction but a slab/brick of alumino silicates would need to melt in order to form a sphere ,Unless in its original building purpose it is spherical .

The fires after the collapse didnt have a magical fuel source which raised temperatures higher than the collapse temperatures, this is a moot point.

Al-O-Fe is indicitive of thermite because you have aluminium ,iron ,and metal oxide together .Not seperate as we would expect from various samples of spheres in the dust etc.For example We would expect aluminium spheres from the aluminium cladding, some oxygen perhaps as al203 .But not iron.
Steel for example doesnt gain aluminium in the collapse.

Again i wont be convinced untill i have seen a Comparison between a normal office fire and the analysis of wtc.
 
heres the link to the Thermite gun, which shoots thermite.Once again this will come from the military who will use a much more advanced version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-MCCZ3O1M

What?!?!?! This doesn't look like much of a "gun" to me. The video says it's a "Linear Cutting Charge."

The military does not have a much more advanced version of a "GUN" that "shoots thermite." For one thing - It would most certainly kill the operator. Are you seriously alleging that the military uses technology to project thermite at a distance?
 

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