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A Thermite/Thermate Question

diff types of thermite thermite are used for different purposes ,sulpur for example speeds up the reaction.If you wanted to take out the core columns quickly use sulpur .
 
GodisEnergy said:
yea but how do you release Sulphur from Gypsum to sulfidize steel ,also how does sulphur in the gypsum free itself of calcium and form onto the iron microspheres?
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I explained this in the "10 story hole in WTC7" thread with references to sources that verify the chemistry of the reactions involved. Gypsum degrades at temperatures above about 850ºC to release sulphur dioxide and trioxide. These combine with water vapour to form sulphuric acid, which is a vapour at this temperature and can therefore attack and corrode steel. The temperatures for this to happen were known to be present in the fires, where air temperatures up to 1000ºC are common.

As for the microspheres, as R. Mackey points out, we have no way of knowing when they were formed; in particular, they may even pre-date the airplane impacts, or even have been left in the WTC structure from welding during construction.

Dave
 
GodisEnergy said:
yea i havent yet seen iron spheres i can literally hold with my fingers in a painters studio .
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Her boyfriend was using welding gear to make steel sculptures. Welding gear can create the iron spheres Jones is talking about. The possibility of contamination of the dust samples with dust from his clothing hasn't been ruled out, or even addressed.

GodisEnergy said:
diff types of thermite thermite are used for different purposes ,sulpur for example speeds up the reaction.If you wanted to take out the core columns quickly use sulpur .
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Since we know there was free sulphur present, your argument doesn't prove anything. It's far from clear, anyway, that you want a faster reaction to take out the core columns; you might want a slower reaction to spread the heat more evenly. This is the problem with not having a hypothesis; since there's no known way thermite or thermate could have been used to cut the core columns, you simply have no idea which piece of evidence to emphasise and which to cover up to try and prove your story.

Dave
 
GodisEnergy said:
diff types of thermite thermite are used for different purposes ,sulpur for example speeds up the reaction.If you wanted to take out the core columns quickly use sulpur .
Click to expand...

As pointed out by Shyam Sunder during the NIST building seven briefing, Once thermite begins to erode the steel in a vertical column. There is no more physical contact between the thermite and the steel to continue the reaction to cut the column. Its like throwing sand against a wall and expecting it to stick. Your thermite fantasy cannot happen in this physical universe until you get gravity to work sideways.
 
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The chemical analysis does not matter. As I've said in other threads, finding particulate or chemical "evidence" of thermite/thermate is like finding hydrogen and oxygen in the ocean. The materials in the towers will lend themselves to finding such material even without thermite use.

What matters is that gross physical evidence of thermite use is missing. Which is what Mackey pointed out up above. There are no leftover molten iron "pigs", nor is there any evidence of melting at the separation points of the steel beams. That is what conspiracy fantasists continue to miss, and that is where the thermite thesis fails.
 
The only thermite i ever made that contained sulphur also contains a great deal of calcium and no copper. There was copper in the Swiss cheese steel. That was not put there by thermite. There is no mechanical process by which the copper could have been put there by thermite. There is a very common means by which the copper could have gotten there, called electrolysis. It involves copper wires and pipes, water and sulphuric acid or copper sulfate in contact with iron. There was, further, no report anywhere of an iron worker or fire fighter finding thermite-cut steel anywhere in the pile. As for using different kinds of thermite in the demolition of a building, only one form of it would work to cut sideways and that would leave a non-warter-soluable crust and big gobs of slag all over the metal it cuts.

(BTW, whatever was done to the building was not done to the cores. The cores failed last. Do your homework.)

Fail.
 
The therm*te crowd reminds me of the UFO crowd, they define their Therm*te to have whatever properties it requires to do what they claim without any evidence at all that it really has those properties.
 
Yes thermite or thermate can be used sideways heres an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-MCCZ3O1M

Gypsum is formed in volcanic activity ,the gypsum is heated to higher temperatures than 850degrees where is the sulpur release?

Provenance of dust samples analyzed in original work reported here.
Sample 1 was collected from inside the Potter Building located at 38 Park Row in New York City. It was
collected by a Ph.D. scientist on 9/14/2001, just three days after the 9/11/2001 and before any major steelcutting
operations had begun at ground zero. Rescue operations were on-going at the time of sample collection.
Furthermore, the building is located about four blocks from ground zero and the sample was collected from dust
that had worked its way inside the building, landing on an interior window sill. Thus, contamination from steelcutting
operations at ground zero (which can produce molten steel spheres) can be ruled out with a very high
degree of confidence. The iron-rich spheres collected in sample 1 are evidence of high-temperature melting and
violent fragmentation during the WTC destruction and dust formation.
Sample 2 was collected by Jeannette MacKinlay about a week after 9/11/2001, from inside her apartment at
113 Cedar St./110 Liberty St., New York City. WTC dust entered her apartment through two windows which
broke as the South Tower collapsed. The holes in the windows were approximately 0.5 m X 0.8 m, and the
apartment was on the fourth floor.
In both samples, elements besides iron are often present in the spheres which yield chemical signatures
distinct from that of structural steel (such as Al, Si, Cu, K, S; see Figs. 3 and 4). These chemical signatures
provide additional evidence that the spheres did not result from steel-cutting operations during clean-up. We
have recently obtained a WTC dust sample acquired within twenty minutes of the collapse of the North Tower,
near the Brooklyn Bridge, which also shows spherules like those shown in Figs. 1-5. These spheres cannot
have originated from the later clean-up operations. Further results from our on-going investigation will be
presented in future papers. Probing alternative chemical reactions which could have produced these spherules is
beyond the scope of this paper; but further analyses of these contaminants may provide important clues
regarding the processes which generated the observed iron-rich spheres and concomitant high temperatures.
 
What is ironic is that Jones has been pushing this sulfur thing for years, and then he has been pushing the super-secret thermite demolition devices for years. A while ago he quietly admitted that with the demo devices, you wouldn't add sulfur.

Doh!
 
[derail]

God is NOT energy.

The bible states that man is created in Gods image. I (a man) am not energy, ergo, God is not energy either.

[/derail]
 
GodisEnergy said:
Yes thermite or thermate can be used sideways heres an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-MCCZ3O1M
Click to expand...



a prototype that isn't even on the market (and this mechanism was actually made AFTER 9/11/2001).

Jones has been unable provide proof that such a mechanism:
1) existed prior to 9/11/2001
2) was big enough to cut through the VERY thick steel columns
3) calculated exactly how much therm*te would have been needed.
4) why there is no evidence of such devices
 
The falsification of steel cutting activities as a source of microspheres is a red herring. Those other potential sources are not falsified by either Steven Jones's spectroscopic work, nor by details of the dust collection. Steel arc welding during construction can be another possibilty; we considered that in this thread. Furthermore, such particles would indeed match the oxygenation levels that Jones uses to dismiss steel cutting as a source.

On the other hand, considering the amount of spheres in the dust, welding is probably a very minor source compared to microspheres from fly ash. And as a note for those who haven't followed or are unfamiliar with this argument: Fly ash is a component of concrete. Given that concrete is present in the towers in large amounts (big understatement!), it is reasonable to presume that a component of concrete could indeed contribute a large percentage of microspheres to the dust Jones found.

Also: The fact that high temperature events were what formed the spheres does not mean the spheres were formed on 9/11. The fires that day were not the only high temperature events that could have generated those particles. As said above, welding during construction could be a source. So could the formation of concrete. Nothing Jones has produced so far can definitively pinpoint those spheres as having been created on September 11, 2001.

-------

But these are all academic arguments. I've said it before: Chemical analysis in the absence of any gross physical characteristics is irrelevant Finding chemical evidence of thermite in a building with much aluminum and metal oxides present is like finding dirt in a field. It's expected. If thermite were truly used, very macroscopic evidence would exist, namely molten and re-solidified iron pools (iron "pigs"), and very obvious evidence on the steel members themselves; there would be molten ends where the beams separated. These effects were not observed. In short, there is simply no real signs of thermite use in the towers, and the chemical analyses are simply insufficient to overcome that problem.
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
[derail]

God is NOT energy.

The bible states that man is created in Gods image. I (a man) am not energy, ergo, God is not energy either.

[/derail]
Click to expand...

Man is made of energy at a quantum level, and because god made man in gods image,therefore god is man and god is energy
 
while it is true that in normal office buildings its expected to find .05% iron microshperes from fly ash from a distant coal plant etc .
There is also micrometeriotes which are constantly around us which are iron sphericles.

But to find 5% iron sphericles some big enough to hold with fingers is not expected.

""It was
collected by a Ph.D. scientist on 9/14/2001, just three days after the 9/11/2001 and before any major steelcutting
operations had begun at ground zero""
Thereby ruling out contanimation from Steelcutting torches.
 
GodisEnergy said:
while it is true that in normal office buildings its expected to find .05% iron microshperes from fly ash from a distant coal plant etc .
There is also micrometeriotes which are constantly around us which are iron sphericles.

But to find 5% iron sphericles some big enough to hold with fingers is not expected.

""It was
collected by a Ph.D. scientist on 9/14/2001, just three days after the 9/11/2001 and before any major steelcutting
operations had begun at ground zero""
Thereby ruling out contanimation from Steelcutting torches.
Click to expand...

Steel cutting and steel welding are not the same thing. Arguments against steel cutting fail to address the possibilty of steel welding. And as my post above points out, fly ash is another source, and likely the majority one.

I also think I need to remind people that, despite his refusal to dismiss it, Jones's own evidence points away from his thermite hypothesis. As Dr. Greening pointed out, the EDX spectra he produced during his investigation "are a perfect match for FLY ASH!".

The fact of the matter is, Jones cannot narrow down the generation of those spheres as being on 9/11. He simply does not have the evidence. And none of what GodisEnergy has said addresses the lack of overt signs of thermite use, which would be impossible to miss had thermite truly been used.

This is old, overly trodden ground. If anyone cares to read or continue with the microspheres and thermite arguments, they can use the search feature and take it up in existing threads. But I recommend people see what's been said before. None of this is new, and nothing presented here breathes any new life into it.
 
overt signs like the sulphidization of steel.Where is the steel to look at it was all shipped away.Like i say the iron spheres are around 5% which is more than normal office buildings which also have Steel welding joints etc

Oh yea one more point the sideway thermite cutter being 'invented' after 911,well its well known that the research in these products is done by military then its invented 20-30 years later by a Private firm connected to the military ,how convenient
 
Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the sifters at Fresh Kills found several dozen stainless steel case lids embossed with "ACME Thermite" in the wreckage. That is to assume that these materials were indeed in the building.

What can we surmise from this based on what we know so far? What could be the source of these artifacts? Is there any other evidence or plausible scenario that could implicate thermite as the cause for the collapse.

Forget the question about the evidence. Assume it was there and ask the next question. Is it plausible? This is the Mythbusters method.
 
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