A Suggestion about "A Unique Person"...

[Tricky]

Tricky, I disagree on one point. AUP has flamed me before, although he did not start a thread on it. Furthermore, on my Conversation thread- the one in which I specifically requested no personal attacks he attacked DrBenway in quite a personal manner- the first flame on the thread. After my request, he deleted the flames. However, a few days after he resumed.

So AUP is not quite an innocent in flame wars, you see.

I realize that you cannot make links to the posts he deleted, but could you link the "resumed" flames?. I know AUP is a bit impetuous, but he does back off (as his post shows). I don't read every thread, so if I am wrong in defending him, I would like to know where.

[humor]If he has actually flamed you, Renata, then he is an idiot of the first water, and does not deserve to show his face in public.[/humor]

 

[Baker]

I thought the Renata post quoted by Baker offered some reasonable criticism that might have some validity. However in her first statement that AUP underestimated the consequences of the holocaust or perhaps was unsympathetic to the people who had endured the holocaust. I don't believe it for a second. AUP strikes me as a bleeding heart liberal who is at least as sympathetic to the plight of the suffering as any conservative. I believe that the discussion that led to this statement was comparing the WWII holocaust with other mass murders in history and the point AUP was making was that there are other mass murders that have resulted in the deaths of more people. Never once did I think he was saying that the holocaust didn't happen or that it wasn't a terrible thing.

I have to disagree I got the same impression that renata got that he thinks Holocaust was overdone look at the comments he made in this thread.
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15464

http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/revie...view.holocaust/


Sharp. Savage. Ruthless.

That and more describes Norman G. Finkelstein’s attack on the ideological movement he terms "The Holocaust Industry," a term he uses for his book’s title. It’s a small book, but it’s causing a lot of problems for a lot of entrenched interests, and it’s sure to create many more in the future, difficulties Finkelstein, a leftist professor at City University of New York and relentless critic of Israel, may have not even imagined.



http://www.houstonreview.com/articl...gHolocaust.html

reviews that do not totally endorse the book, yet achknowledge that the holocaust industry is not beyond criticism.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/01/02/books-goldin.php

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=378168#post378168

you have to wonder how much trouble is being caused by a few woo woos who insist on 'settling' a country that is not theirs. Most of those evil, horrible, big nosed, blood eating jews don't even think they should be there. There is a new conservative party formed in Israel for conservative Jews to be able to vote to stop forming co-alitions with these morons.
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=382502#post382502

As I have said already, drop the ad hominems. You note the irony in that if these guys are praising the book, it also starts on the assumption that there was a holocaust, which is one of the main points they wish to dispute. one of the reasons I find this book interesting is that it does mention that there were other/i] victims of Hitler. The Jews do not 'own' the holocaust. they share the tragedy.
It is not whether or not there was a holocaust. It is what has happened to the legacy of the holocaust. Has it been immorally hijacked for other purposes.

If I was a real racist, I would have the attitude that others appear to have that Jews are beyond criticism. I certainly don't have that attitude about my country, my race, or anthing else.
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=382511#post382511

 

[renata]

I realize that you cannot make links to the posts he deleted, but could you link the "resumed" flames?. I know AUP is a bit impetuous, but he does back off (as his post shows). I don't read every thread, so if I am wrong in defending him, I would like to know where.

[humor]If he has actually flamed you, Renata, then he is an idiot of the first water, and does not deserve to show his face in public.[/humor]

Love you too, Tricky ( that avatar! *swoon*)

The flame at me was not in that thread, it was elsewhere, and I am not sure I can find it now. The flames in general in the Conversation thread are located on pages ( is now a bad time to confess I can't link directly to posts in a thread?)

My request to delete his original flames was posted 4/30. Then some aggressive posts from AUP on 5/1, 5/6, 5/7, 5/8, 5/10

Not all of them are outright "flame" posts, like the one he deleted- some are attacks on Israel. However, all violated the spirit of the thread, which was supposed to be low on propagande and vitriol, and high on calm exchange of ideas. What a fool I was, eh? All sides violated the original idea in one way or another.

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18464

 

[Baker]

"Facts" are an extremely elusive quality here. Each person presents their links, evidence and viewpoints. What any of us accept as "facts" depends largely on what we accept as reliable sources. However, AUP has defended his position without much rancor towards any other posters. The same cannot be said of Skeptic (the originator of this thread intended to flame AUP). Sarcasm, I regard as a legitimate tool of debate, especially if done well. Character assasination is not. While I don't agree with Unique on some issues, I have to say he has not strayed from addressing those issues in order to point out how so-and-so has been a constant whiner.

I challenge you to find a thread started by AUP to complain about another poster. Who then is the aggrieved party?

Facts" are an extremely elusive quality here??
Tricky you are supposed to be a skeptic that would mean your debates with Edge is just a matter of opinion.
AUP’s ability to make same accusations over and over even after others have refuted them proves he is an out right liar that is the problem most of us have with him.

 

[davefoc]

Baker said:

I have to disagree I got the same impression that renata got that he thinks Holocaust was overdone look at the comments he made in this thread.

I stand corrected. I was confused about the thread that the statement at issue was posted.

AUP said:

I will buy a book I was reading in the bookshop the other day, written by a jew, about how the holocaust has become an industry. I am not saying it never happened. I am saying it has been overdone. because of the holocaust, you can't criticise Israel. etc. And if you read my threads, you will also find I am accused of being anti-american. now, there are many fine, upstanding WASPS in the US as well

Baker, for better or worse, I do not find anything that AUP has said as anti-Jew or anti-semitic. The notion that the holocaust has been overdone in some ways is shared by a great many people. This doesn't mean that they don't sympathize enormously with the people that experienced it and it doesn't mean that they don't think it happened.

I have read through your other AUP quotes and the links.

I will tell you that I have come to like and respect a great many of the posters that are engaged in this conversation and I feel in some ways isolated from them on this issue because I just don't see where they are coming from. Perhaps it is because I share some of AUP's views on these issues and the resulting biases are closing my eyes to the truth. But if there is a more sincere, less racist person on this forum than AUP I haven't seen him.

I agree with Renata and others that he on occasion has engaged in some sarcasm and attacks that seemed counterproductive. OTOH it seems like people have made some pretty unjustified attacks against him at times. Anyway, I'm not going to think about this for awhile. Maybe with a clearer head I will understand your points better tomorrow.

Also, I'm waiting for that pro-Israel thread AUP, I know there's one in you just dieing to get out.

 

[Tricky]

Facts" are an extremely elusive quality here??
Tricky you are supposed to be a skeptic that would mean your debates with Edge is just a matter of opinion.
AUP’s ability to make same accusations over and over even after others have refuted them proves he is an out right liar that is the problem most of us have with him.

AUP has provided credible support for his points, as have you. Edge has never done any such thing. To compare AUP with Edge reduces your own credibility, Baker. Please reconsider.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have to disagree I got the same impression that renata got that he thinks Holocaust was overdone look at the comments he made in this thread.
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15464

The reference to big nosed jews was a sarcastic reference to my 'anti-semitism', pointing out that although I don't feel too tolerant to the extremist Jews, the moderate majority, who seem to get routinely hijacked by the extremists, were trying to get out of the endless blackmail they are subject to. Conservative Jews formed a political party, that let them hold conservative views, while totally rejecting any deals with the extremists to get into power. A notion the other major parties would do well to consider.

I think I have already stated about 5 times that the word overdone was not appropriate. Hijacked, used immorally, yes. The holocaust stands as one of the great tragedies of history. The point I was arguing was, how is it being treated today?

As for myself, I think that I have already stated that the US is the most powerful country in the world. No matter what country that is, it is going to be in the spotlight. The USSR used to have equal billing, I think, now it's adventurism is pretty well confined to interests close to home, and it's days as a superpower are well and truly over.

I suppose I also hope for something better from the US. For a country that has so much going for it, that has given so much to the world, I can't see that it needs to indulge in the grubby politics that are regularly tarnishing it's image.

 

[a_unique_person]

AUP has provided credible support for his points, as have you. Edge has never done any such thing. To compare AUP with Edge reduces your own credibility, Baker. Please reconsider.

I can play guitar much better than him, too.

 

[shuize]

AUP is harmless for the most part. But after participating in a discussion with him about North Korea, I also came to the conclusion that he is forever anti-American. That discussion concerned North Korea's announcement that it had never kept its bargain with the US to stop producing nuclear weapons in exchange for fuel and a planned reactor to be built later. True to form, AUP managed to argue that the current nuclear crisis was of course America's fault for not building the reactor before the North Koreans broke their agreement.

 

[Malachi151]

AUP is harmless for the most part. But after participating in a discussion with him about North Korea, I also came to the conclusion that he is forever anti-American. That discussion concerned North Korea's announcement that it had never kept its bargain with the US to stop producing nuclear weapons in exchange for fuel and a planned reactor to be built later. True to form, AUP managed to argue that the current nuclear crisis was of course America's fault for not building the reactor before the North Koreans broke their agreement.

What is funny is that Donald Rumsfeld was on the board of directors of one of the companies that sold the Nuclear Reactor to North Korea while Clinton was in office. Doh!

 

[Cleopatra]

I realize that you cannot make links to the posts he deleted, but could you link the "resumed" flames?. I know AUP is a bit impetuous, but he does back off (as his post shows). I don't read every thread, so if I am wrong in defending him, I would like to know where.

[humor]If he has actually flamed you, Renata, then he is an idiot of the first water, and does not deserve to show his face in public.[/humor]

Tricky.

Now you don't play fair yourself In fact you tend to AUP

Let's face it and admit it. Unique's comments hurt people very often. This doesn't make him bad or evil of course at least not as evil as the evil Israelis he describes... but it creates strong feelings....

So listen to what I have decided to do. Every time AUP hits below the belt I will kick him on the face.

Fair enough don't you think?

 

[Baker]

AUP has provided credible support for his points, as have you. Edge has never done any such thing. To compare AUP with Edge reduces your own credibility, Baker. Please reconsider.

If AUP has provided credible support for his points is quite questionable.
I was referring to your comment “Facts" are an extremely elusive quality here. Each person presents their links, evidence and viewpoints. What any of us accept as "facts" depends largely on what we accept as reliable sources.”
You appear to be saying what we us accept as facts and evidence depends on or own personal view you could say the same about what Edge considers evidence.

 

[a_unique_person]

If AUP has provided credible support for his points is quite questionable.
I was referring to your comment “Facts" are an extremely elusive quality here. Each person presents their links, evidence and viewpoints. What any of us accept as "facts" depends largely on what we accept as reliable sources.”
You appear to be saying what we us accept as facts and evidence depends on or own personal view you could say the same about what Edge considers evidence.

I think the important word in this case is 'here', that is, in the realm of politics. We can get all kinds of scientific facts that can be reproduced and proven independently all around the world. Proving that Arafat is a terrorist or a freedom fighter is always going to be impossible.

 

[jj]

Re: Re: A Suggestion about "A Unique Person"...

[de-lurk]

No, I am annoyed at neo-Americans like yourself who don't recognize that dissenting voices are essential, and who won't be satisfied until you've run EVERYONE off who disagrees with you.

[lurk]

Well, speaking as an American who's been told to STFU (no, I can't explain that on the board ) far too many times lately when pointing out that some statements, actions, and laws passed by my government are completely traitorous according to the US constitution, I tend to agree with you, they'd like to run us all off.

I would say 'where is jedi twit when you need an example' but I also know the idea 'be careful what you wish for'.

 

[BillyTK]

I'd say it would be a false premise. But, the thread starter made no such claim. What you've created here is a straw-man.

It's not a strawman, as I'm not suggesting that Skeptic did make such a claim. I'm making a general observation about the way anti-amercanism is often construed as simple envy, both from Skeptic's accusation that envy is the basis of AUP's position, and from other comments made in this forum; for instance, here. If I am guilty of a logical fallacy it's of the hasty generalisation variety, as I don't really have the inclination comb through the forum to find every single instance which supports my case

 

[Baker]

I think the important word in this case is 'here', that is, in the realm of politics. We can get all kinds of scientific facts that can be reproduced and proven independently all around the world. Proving that Arafat is a terrorist or a freedom fighter is always going to be impossible.

What you should be saying is there are scientific facts and there is propaganda you obviously wish for they’re to be no proof of right or wrong to counter any criticism against your claims.
There or clear facts and evidence behind every issue.
I notice most anti-Israel advocates try’s to use the notion that there are no right or wrong just opinions to blind us of the obvious facts.

 

[Baker]

Re: Re: A Suggestion about "A Unique Person"...

No, I am annoyed at neo-Americans like yourself who don't recognize that dissenting voices are essential, and who won't be satisfied until you've run EVERYONE off who disagrees with you.

So what you are saying is any criticism of your views means we are running you off?