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Split Thread A second impeachment

Aridas said:
As long as Trump and his enablers don't actually receive notable punishment, "stupid" isn't exactly the right term, at last check. The Republican Party is in a dangerous state, right now, to say the least. At last check, more Republicans favor identifying themselves as Trump supporters rather than Republicans, for example. That's even after the attack on the Capitol. Perhaps that shouldn't be too surprising, though, given that Trump (and Cruz, really, who was the runner up in 2016) was so attractive to the "Burn the Republican Party Establishment Down!" voters that he won the 2016 primaries. Either way, the Republicans are facing the very real prospect of significant pro-Trump activists actively working to harm any "traitors" to Trump, dispensing death threats en masse, and potentially even a split in the Party that will cost them their long and hard work to gerrymandered and cheat to hold onto minority rule for their donors.
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It's a frickin' cult.
 
Aridas said:
As long as Trump and his enablers don't actually receive notable punishment, "stupid" isn't exactly the right term, at last check. The Republican Party is in a dangerous state, right now, to say the least. At last check, more Republicans favor identifying themselves as Trump supporters rather than Republicans, for example. That's even after the attack on the Capitol. Perhaps that shouldn't be too surprising, though, given that Trump (and Cruz, really, who was the runner up in 2016) was so attractive to the "Burn the Republican Party Establishment Down!" voters that he won the 2016 primaries. Either way, the Republicans are facing the very real prospect of significant pro-Trump activists actively working to harm any "traitors" to Trump, dispensing death threats en masse, and potentially even a split in the Party that will cost them their long and hard work to gerrymandered and cheat to hold onto minority rule for their donors.
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That's what The Turtle fears. He will lose all his influence and thus money-raking opportunities.

But let's look at this differently. What if such a split actually happened? The GOP would become a pair of constantly-face-slapping siblings, one with tattoos and an attitude, the other prone to cheating at every opportunity to get ahead. In short, neither would be able to hold absolute power in government unless there was a coalition, and that would never happen.

Which means the Dems simply need to present as the sane, stable alternatives to them both, and score more votes than the bigger of the other two parties. This is far less difficult than facing a conservative bloc as has been the case to date. They become the de facto government, perhaps at a lot of levels.

While the Dems are far from perfect, is that a bad thing?
 
Elagabalus said:
He had a DUI that was "suspiciously handled" ... eh ... apparently. Maybe there's more they have on him? I doubt it, but it's fun to think about.
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But he's soooo enthusiastic. You just don't see that with someone who's forced to support someone.
 
I don't buy this "fear of being harmed by Trumpers" as a legitimate reason. I think it's a convenient excuse they're telling their Dem colleagues because they're just chicken **** cowards too afraid to stand up to the Trump faction of the GOP .
 
The video of Goodman warning Romney of the onrushing crowd with less than a minute to spare should make every Senator vote to convict, just out of loyalty to Senate itself.
They all know that, should the mob have gotten hold of Romney, at best he would have been in the hospital.
at best.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
The video of Goodman warning Romney of the onrushing crowd with less than a minute to spare should make every Senator vote to convict, just out of loyalty to Senate itself.
They all know that, should the mob have gotten hold of Romney, at best he would have been in the hospital.
at best.
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Of course, which is why the GOP Senate members are basing their decision to acquit on their argument that impeachment hearings cannot be carried out against ex-presidents (thus giving all future Presidents a one month get out of jail free card at the end of their term) and/or tying themselves in knots in an attempt to make the argument that, despite what the rioters themselves say, President Trump did absolutely nothing to encourage and/or incite the mob. :mad:

At this stage there is literally no evidence that could be presented that would cause them to convict. Even if there was film of President Trump personally ferrying the leaders of the mob from his rally to the Capitol in a golf cart, Senate Republicans would congratulate him for saving their shoe-leather and insist that he spent the time educating them on the benefits of, and most effective methods of, non-violent protest. :rolleyes:
 
Norman Alexander said:
While the Dems are far from perfect, is that a bad thing?
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It's not, of course, at least in the short term. With that said, though, convincing the people that would be losing their status and power as a result that it's something they should embrace might be a harder sell.

Stacyhs said:
I don't buy this "fear of being harmed by Trumpers" as a legitimate reason. I think it's a convenient excuse they're telling their Dem colleagues because they're just chicken **** cowards too afraid to stand up to the Trump faction of the GOP .
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I'm reminded of the politician that was convinced to yell the N-word, drop his pants, and much more on camera when his fears were exploited. I don't have a problem believing that "conservatives" let themselves get coerced with threats of harm to themselves and those they love, either way. But then, the more typical "conservative" stance of the very limited group of people that they actually know and care about >>> everyone else plays into that, too.
 
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Blue Mountain said:
Code: 
[blue_mountain@linux ~]$ URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/10/trump-impeachment-live-updates/"
[blue_mountain@linux ~]$ elinks -dump "$URL" | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]+(Link:|AD[[:space:]]*$)' | sed '/Show More/,$d' | less

Sorry, that's the Linux geek in me coming out. elinks is a console-based HTTP client (aka "browser") that doesn't process JavaScript. The Washington Post's paywall is implemented using JavaScript, so without JavaScript the content is available.
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I use the "Disable Javascript" addon for Firefox. If I strike a site that keeps popping up JavaScript nag windows, a quick flick of the "JS" switch disables that functionality, then I can navigate the site with no issues.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
If nothing else, there have been reports that they fear for their safety and their families' safety if they don't say and do the right things in public.
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The Dem senators do not seem to have that same fear. Maybe it has some connection to the party those fearful senators belong to. They should consider a switch so they can make decisions based on correctness.
 
Stacyhs said:
I don't buy this "fear of being harmed by Trumpers" as a legitimate reason. I think it's a convenient excuse they're telling their Dem colleagues because they're just chicken **** cowards too afraid to stand up to the Trump faction of the GOP .
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Nah. Taey got what little they actually wanted out of him - tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy, judges that'll empower corporations (without concern for the rights of others), and a bunch of fanatic bigots that will be placated by harm to anyone "intellectual", dark-skinned, and/or "feminine".

Or, and the immigrants too. Dark-skinned foreigners especially scare their base into line - which is why the Tucker Carlson White Power Hour is focusing on them in between the conspiracy theories.

Plus, they retain their power in the short term, even though they want to do just about nothing with it as we've seen.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Which is contrary to how the house voted right at the start of the proceedings. The trial IS constitutional. They cannot just hand-wave that away and declare it not so.

Their only public justification left to acquit is "I don't think Trump did enough wrong to convict". And that plank is getting more and more precarious the more evidence is produced by the impeachment managers.

What they loathe to say is that they are too goddam scared to get out from under Trump's thumb now.
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But it's not a courtroom trial. The senate can vote based on whatever they feel like. If the majority says is is constitutional, and get 2/3 votes and convict, the 1/3 can STILL say they voted not to convict on the basis that THEY feel it is unconstitutional. There is no judge to throw out such "jurors."
 
Stacyhs said:
I don't buy this "fear of being harmed by Trumpers" as a legitimate reason. I think it's a convenient excuse they're telling their Dem colleagues because they're just chicken **** cowards too afraid to stand up to the Trump faction of the GOP .
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You are quite incorrect.

There are plenty of Democrats who have stood up to that POS Trump. That is why Trump has gotten himself impeached twice, why Trump lost the popular vote twice, and so on.

However, just about all Republicans are "chicken **** cowards too afraid to stand up to the Trump faction of the GOP".
 
The Don said:
Of course, which is why the GOP Senate members are basing their decision to acquit on their argument that impeachment hearings cannot be carried out against ex-presidents (thus giving all future Presidents a one month get out of jail free card at the end of their term) . . .
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Is it just one month, though? Once the precedent is established that the conviction vote can be cancelled if it can be delayed past the president's term, what's to prevent a Senate majority leader from going all Garland on it and saying, for example, "Given that we are in the midst of the presidential election process, we believe that the American people should seize the opportunity to weigh in on whom they trust" if the impeachment occurs in the last year of a president's term?
 
Watching the video of VP Pence exiting the chambers yesterday, I wondered if the guy a couple steps behind him was his body double? Or was it just someone who happened to look a lot like him?
 
So far, the prosecution’s presentation has been well done.

Thinking back to the O.J. trial, jurors can get overwhelmed and numbed when hit with too much information at the same time. I like the way the prosecutors haven’t even used all their time.

In the end, I hope their closing argument is brief and to the point. Something like...

“You have seen the timeline. You have seen and heard the President’s words and actions before, during and after the insurrection. You have seen the consequences of those words and actions. Can anyone here actually believe that this riotous insurrection would have occurred but for the President’s words and actions? In your heart of hearts, putting politics aside, can you in good conscience vote to acquit and in so doing, say the President is without any guilt in what transpired? Has no blame for the deaths, injuries and mayhem which ensued? Remember, history will not look kindly on those who on this day choose to selfishly put Party over Country. I only ask you for you to do what you know is right, and that is to vote to convict Donald J. Trump for the articles before you.”

It’s not likely to sway enough Republicans to make a difference, but at least we may have a “Patrick Henry before the Virgina Convention”-type speech for the history books!
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I think his best hope is to get covid under control so mask laws can be relaxed and, in the mean time, keep giving out stimulus cheques and other financial help. Even Trump supporters were complaining that they didn't get the money they were promised. If their lives are suddenly better under Biden, some of them might find themselves starting to have to grudgingly concede that he's not the Antichrist after all.
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Some will, but for the majority . . . I know conservatives who sincerely believe that the country had descended far into socialist hell under Obama and was pulled back by Trump. This despite the fact that it runs completely counter to their own personal experience during Obama's presidency.
 
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