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A Question on Abiogenesis

Another interesting point that just occurred to me: an "RNA world" style of autocatalytic network might well have less steps than a "protein world." I think it would be interesting to see how many members the average randomly-derived autocatalytic networks would be for each style of biochemistry; I think there might be enough computer power around to run a mathematical test of it. I'm sure someone will think of that before long.
 
Another interesting point that just occurred to me: an "RNA world" style of autocatalytic network might well have less steps than a "protein world." I think it would be interesting to see how many members the average randomly-derived autocatalytic networks would be for each style of biochemistry; I think there might be enough computer power around to run a mathematical test of it. I'm sure someone will think of that before long.
It's been 54 years since the Urey-Miller experiment. So why, considering the vast technological advances since then, can't someone produce life from non-life in a laboratory?
 
It's been 54 years since the Urey-Miller experiment. So why, considering the vast technological advances since then, can't someone produce life from non-life in a laboratory?
Because life came from non-life in a billion years more or less, in a laboratory the size of the whole Earth. Just that simple.
 
Because life came from non-life in a billion years more or less, in a laboratory the size of the whole Earth. Just that simple.
But, according to the conventional scientific wisdom, that happened randomly. Don't you think there is a rather major difference between something happening randomly and the best scientific minds using the best equipment replicating that random event? If you say no, why was it so easy for the Urey-Miller experiment to create amino acids? And, are you aware that, following that experiment, there was great optimism in the scientific community that the creation of life in a laboratory was just around the corner? Can you specify a rough timeframe for when this will actually happen?
 
But, according to the conventional scientific wisdom, that happened randomly. Don't you think there is a rather major difference between something happening randomly and the best scientific minds using the best equipment replicating that random event?
Actually, there should be not any major difference, unless the scientific experiments somehow can increase the odds of the random event happening.

If you say no, why was it so easy for the Urey-Miller experiment to create amino acids?
Because amino acids are much more likely to be produced than life.

And, are you aware that, following that experiment, there was great optimism in the scientific community that the creation of life in a laboratory was just around the corner?
So? Optimism is one thing. Understanding the odds is something completely different!
 
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But, according to the conventional scientific wisdom, that happened randomly. Don't you think there is a rather major difference between something happening randomly and the best scientific minds using the best equipment replicating that random event?

Yes, quite a difference. The random happening had a planet-sized "laboratory" and a billion (or so) years to work with, and the conditions were ... well what they were. Scientists have single-stringed expriments, limited time, and have to partly quess at what conditions they have ot emulate.

Also remember that not all functions are scaleable. There are planet-scale conditions that cannot be replicated in a lab.

If you say no, why was it so easy for the Urey-Miller experiment to create amino acids?

Because amino acids are much simpler to create than actual life? Remember, we don't even know for sure what the next step was.

And, are you aware that, following that experiment, there was great optimism in the scientific community that the creation of life in a laboratory was just around the corner?

And?

Can you specify a rough timeframe for when this will actually happen?

I think it will happen in this century, but not by replicating a random process. It will be done by using proteine synthesis tools. In other words, such life will be created, it will not be abiogenesis. And people like you will claim (falsely) that this is "proof" that abiogenesis cannot happen.

Hans
 
But, according to the conventional scientific wisdom, that happened randomly. Don't you think there is a rather major difference between something happening randomly and the best scientific minds using the best equipment replicating that random event?

The answer would depend on what you are asking. If you are saying can scientists deliberately create a self-reproducing molecule from a soup of prebiotic chemicals. Pretty much. If you are asking can scientists make a self-reproducing molecule appear by chance in the same soup. Probably not. It is no more likely a single event in a lab than in the 'wild', tweaking pressures and temperatures and concentrations might increase the number of opportunities by a factor or two of ten, but add up all the flasks in all the labs in all the world that are doing such studies and the total number of opportunities is most likely insignificantly small compared with the number on the prebiotic Earth.

If you say no, why was it so easy for the Urey-Miller experiment to create amino acids? And, are you aware that, following that experiment, there was great optimism in the scientific community that the creation of life in a laboratory was just around the corner? Can you specify a rough timeframe for when this will actually happen?

Because the Urey-Miller experiment shows that 'biological' molecules are not difficult to synthesise in a reducing environment. Hence we may reasonably assume an abundance of them in our models of abiogenesis.

And can you give me a reference where the scientific community voiced this optimism? I would like to see their timescales and justifications before commenting.
 
I think it will happen in this century, but not by replicating a random process. It will be done by using proteine synthesis tools. In other words, such life will be created, it will not be abiogenesis. And people like you will claim (falsely) that this is "proof" that abiogenesis cannot happen.

Well Manfred Eigen stuck nucleic acids and replicase enzyme in a testtube and (fairly consistently) got RNAs that spontaneously promoted their own replication. And that is so last century!
 
And can you give me a reference where the scientific community voiced this optimism? I would like to see their timescales and justifications before commenting.

I second this request. While the results of experiments showing that the basic building blocks of life are easily produced within our best model for the primordial Earth are certainly encouraging, it seems unlikely to me that many scientists would declare that the synthesis of self replicating molecules was just around the corner. It's just too much like saying "we've just discovered how to carve sandstone so we'll be building pyramids in no time".
 
(Try again)
It's just too much like saying "we've just discovered how to carve sandstone so we'll be building pyramids in no time".

I think it's closer to saying, "We've a good idea where sandstone comes from, we'll be building our own planets in next to no time!".

And 'props' to Schneibster for the nice summary, by the way.
 
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I second this request. While the results of experiments showing that the basic building blocks of life are easily produced within our best model for the primordial Earth are certainly encouraging, it seems unlikely to me that many scientists would declare that the synthesis of self replicating molecules was just around the corner. It's just too much like saying "we've just discovered how to carve sandstone so we'll be building pyramids in no time".
I remember researching what the New York Times had to say about the Urey-Miller experiment and it was very optimistic, although I don't have a quote handy at the moment. However, according to John Horgan, in his 1996 book "The End of Science" at p. 138:

"Miller’s results seem to provide stunning evidence that life could arise from what the British chemist J.B.S. Haldane had called the 'primordial soup.' Pundits speculated that scientists, like Mary Shelley’s Dr. Frankenstein, would shortly conjure up living organisms in their laboratories and thereby demonstrate in detail how genesis unfolded. It hasn’t worked out that way. In fact, almost 40 years after his original experiment, Miller told me that solving the riddle of the origin of life had turned out to be more difficult than he or anyone else had envisioned."
 
IPundits speculated that scientists, like Mary Shelley’s Dr. Frankenstein, would shortly conjure up living organisms in their laboratories and thereby demonstrate in detail how genesis unfolded.

I'm not surprised. Pundits are almost always ill-informed about the details of scientific advances, and almost always predict wrongly.

But to criticize a scientific theory in 2007 based on what pundits said about it in the 1950s is somewhat ill-advised.
 
Pundits speculated that scientists..."

So 'pundits', not scientists, made these speculations.

So far, I see no support for your claim that
Following that experiment, there was great optimism in the scientific community that the creation of life in a laboratory was just around the corner.
 
But, according to the conventional scientific wisdom, that happened randomly.
I think your problem here is a misunderstanding of the nature of probability. If a particular event has a very low probability, but the conditions under which that event might be observed are repeated a very large number of times, then the event becomes highly probable. For example, the chance that you will throw snake eyes with two dice is only one in thirty-six; but if you throw the dice a hundred times, the probability that one throw will be snake eyes approaches one. In fact, it is extremely improbable that, throwing the dice a hundred times, you will not throw snake eyes once. Likewise, just because the chance that the particular chemicals in a flask will form an autocatalytic set in a short period of time, and in this case, "short" could mean a hundred years, is low, does not mean that the chance that one, or even many, autocatalytic sets will form in a billion years in all the world's oceans is low; in fact, because of the enormous volume involved, and the enormous amount of time, it is all but certain given what we know now that many such autocatalytic sets will form; perhaps even many billions of such sets. And, in case you missed it, an autocatalytic set is capable of reproducing itself from the surrounding material; this is the most important characteristic of that which we call "life."

Don't you think there is a rather major difference between something happening randomly and the best scientific minds using the best equipment replicating that random event?
That depends on the design of the experiment. If they were using complex chemicals, or unusual procedures, then I might agree; but they were using very simple chemicals, specifically, water, ammonia, methane, and carbon dioxide, and doing nothing but heating them and subjecting them to ultraviolet light and sparks to simulate lightning. These are a pretty good duplication of the conditions that obtained on the early Earth, and there is little room for any sort of "engineering" or manipulation; anything that happens in such an environment, particularly if it is small and only allowed to run for a short time, must surely have been duplicated a trillion trillion times in the enormous volume of all the world's oceans over the enormous time of a billion years.

And you're still stuck on the whole probability thing. You need to think about what "random" means in this context very much more carefully. For example, it is a random chance (and a very small one) that any given uranium atom will decay in any given second; the half-life of uranium is about four billion years, which means that in four billion years, there is only a 50/50 chance that a particular atom will decay; how many seconds is that? And what, then, is the chance of the atom decaying in any given second? Yet, in a relatively small volume, a few cubic centimeters, enough of them decay in a second that it makes the uranium radioactive, and strongly enough so that it will injure you if you are exposed to it for long. And even in that small a volume it is incredibly unlikely that a second will pass in which not a single atom of uranium decays, despite the incredible unlikelihood of any single atom doing so.

If you say no, why was it so easy for the Urey-Miller experiment to create amino acids?
Because the nature of the atoms in the four ices (water, ammonia, carbon dioxide, and methane) is such that they will combine in this manner and form these compounds under the conditions that obtained in the Urey-Miller experiment, and on the early Earth; their bonding strengths and angles, and the probability with which they will bond, and how those strengths and angles change when they are already bonded and encounter another already-bonded molecule, dictate how they will combine and what compounds they will form when they do so. And these characteristics, in turn, depend upon the characteristics of the electrons, protons, and neutrons that make up the atoms, the forces that bind them, and the nature of spacetime. And to top it all off, some physicists hypothesize that the characteristics of these particles and forces are also matters of the geometry of spacetime; and they have some pretty strong evidence to support this view, which is referred to as "string theory." And it is even possible that it is impossible to form that which we call a "universe" without it having this particular geometry, although that hypothesis is much less supported than the hypothesis of the geometry of spacetime determining the characteristics of the particles and forces.

And, are you aware that, following that experiment, there was great optimism in the scientific community that the creation of life in a laboratory was just around the corner?
I am not aware of any such optimism in the "scientific community," although I am aware of a certain amount of hyperbole in the popular press. I do not think that you can produce anything but speculations on the part of a few scientists, far less definitive and far less optimistic than you or the popular press of the time claim. And in any case, why should it matter? It appears the situation is far more complex (and I mean that word in all senses- an entire new branch of mathematics has had to be created to describe it, and the name of that branch is "complexity theory") than was appreciated in the 1950s. Is this so surprising? For life to be so difficult to quantify and understand, it has to be complex and embody elegant and counter-intuitive principles, just as physics does, and even moreso. Why, then, should I or anyone be surprised that the 1950s understanding of life should prove to have been as far or farther from reality as the 1950s understanding of physics? Is it not both hyperbolic and essentially disingenuous to make such a claim?

Can you specify a rough timeframe for when this will actually happen?
No, can you? How about you specify the rough timeframe for when we will know whether string theory is correct or not. Can you specify that? How about when we will reach Mars with a manned mission? Or when we will cure cancer? No? Well, then, why should I be able to predict when we will understand life to that level? And why should it be proof that we will not if I cannot?
 
I remember researching what the New York Times had to say about the Urey-Miller experiment and it was very optimistic, although I don't have a quote handy at the moment.
I'd give a lot more credence to a historian of science's view decades later than journalism of the time.

However, according to John Horgan, in his 1996 book "The End of Science" at p. 138:
Such as you provide :

"Miller’s results seem to provide stunning evidence that life could arise from what the British chemist J.B.S. Haldane had called the 'primordial soup.' Pundits speculated that scientists, like Mary Shelley’s Dr. Frankenstein, would shortly conjure up living organisms in their laboratories and thereby demonstrate in detail how genesis unfolded. It hasn’t worked out that way. In fact, almost 40 years after his original experiment, Miller told me that solving the riddle of the origin of life had turned out to be more difficult than he or anyone else had envisioned."
It's reported as Miller's view that nobody else realised that there was a lot more to the subject than creating amino acids. The truth, IMO, is that Miller was ignorant of this, not everybody else.

Enthusiasm, optimism and wild speculation is what popular journalism thrives on. It does not represent the view of the scientific world at the relevant time. Amino acids were a given. Miller made them and they sat there, glutinous and inactive, resolutely doing nothing but be. More able scientists - the great majority - left such work to base mechanicals.

The real reacton and attitude of the scientific world of the time is to be found in contemporary scientific journals. None of this NYT hyperbole is evident there at all.
 
So 'pundits', not scientists, made these speculations.

So far, I see no support for your claim that "Following that experiment, there was great optimism in the scientific community that the creation of life in a laboratory was just around the corner."
I guess you missed this sentence:

"In fact, almost 40 years after his original experiment, Miller told me that solving the riddle of the origin of life had turned out to be more difficult than he or anyone else had envisioned."

Now, I presume you will try and play word games with my "just around the corner" phrase. But now another 14 years have passed since Miller told Horgan that solving the riddle had turned out to be more difficult than he or ANYONE ELSE had envisioned. Has any progress been made toward creating life in those 14 years? If so, what, exactly?
 
I guess you missed this sentence:

"In fact, almost 40 years after his original experiment, Miller told me that solving the riddle of the origin of life had turned out to be more difficult than he or anyone else had envisioned."

Now, I presume you will try and play word games with my "just around the corner" phrase. But now another 14 years have passed since Miller told Horgan that solving the riddle had turned out to be more difficult than he or ANYONE ELSE had envisioned. Has any progress been made toward creating life in those 14 years? If so, what, exactly?
That's your evidence? Miller''s claim that nobody else thought he was a simplistic idiot (if they'd even heard about him) before he created amino acids? It was Miller who discovered it was a tad more complicated, not everybody else. And it was all he ever did. He created amino acids, by an unexceptional process that Scheibster has described, which was not remarkable nor something ambitious scientists were spending their time on. And he got in the papers for it, it was a science story, and science was popular at the time. Decades later, he got into a popular history of science, which you've quoted. Whether or not your quote honestly represents John Horgan's opinion of Miller is an open question for me, since I haven't read his book.
 
II am not aware of any such optimism in the "scientific community," although I am aware of a certain amount of hyperbole in the popular press.
The similarity of Rodney's argument here with the classic AGW-denialist "They were all predicting a new ice-age in the 70's" story is quite striking. As is Rodneys insistence on a precise narrative of abiogenesis with AGW-denialist insistence on precise prediction.
 
That's your evidence? Miller''s claim that nobody else thought he was a simplistic idiot (if they'd even heard about him) before he created amino acids? It was Miller who discovered it was a tad more complicated, not everybody else. And it was all he ever did. He created amino acids, by an unexceptional process that Scheibster has described, which was not remarkable nor something ambitious scientists were spending their time on. And he got in the papers for it, it was a science story, and science was popular at the time. Decades later, he got into a popular history of science, which you've quoted. Whether or not your quote honestly represents John Horgan's opinion of Miller is an open question for me, since I haven't read his book.
According to -- http://www.astrobio.net/news/article461.html --

"Although Miller had submitted his paper in mid-December 1952, one reviewer did not believe the results and delayed its publication until May 15th. Later Carl Sagan would do many experiments varying the chemical percentages, but described the Miller-Urey experiments as 'the single most significant step in convincing many scientists that life is likely to be abundant in the cosmos.'"

So I think your perception of the scientific community's reaction to the Miller-Urey experiment is off-base. And I also don't buy the notion that the popular press distorted the views of the scientific community in this regard. No scientist is going to predict in a technical journal article that the creation of life in a lab is just around the corner, but I think scientists other than Miller were voicing that sentiment to science reporters in the 1950s.
 
I think your problem here is a misunderstanding of the nature of probability. If a particular event has a very low probability, but the conditions under which that event might be observed are repeated a very large number of times, then the event becomes highly probable. For example, the chance that you will throw snake eyes with two dice is only one in thirty-six; but if you throw the dice a hundred times, the probability that one throw will be snake eyes approaches one. In fact, it is extremely improbable that, throwing the dice a hundred times, you will not throw snake eyes once. Likewise, just because the chance that the particular chemicals in a flask will form an autocatalytic set in a short period of time, and in this case, "short" could mean a hundred years, is low, does not mean that the chance that one, or even many, autocatalytic sets will form in a billion years in all the world's oceans is low; in fact, because of the enormous volume involved, and the enormous amount of time, it is all but certain given what we know now that many such autocatalytic sets will form; perhaps even many billions of such sets. And, in case you missed it, an autocatalytic set is capable of reproducing itself from the surrounding material; this is the most important characteristic of that which we call "life."
My problem with your analogy is that it's clear that if you throw two dice enough times snake eyes eventually will come up. However, it's not clear that life from non-life will ever come into existence from a random process. So, first you need to show that such an event is possible. Next, if you can show that it is, you need to show that it is plausible in fewer than one billion years.

That depends on the design of the experiment. If they were using complex chemicals, or unusual procedures, then I might agree; but they were using very simple chemicals, specifically, water, ammonia, methane, and carbon dioxide, and doing nothing but heating them and subjecting them to ultraviolet light and sparks to simulate lightning. These are a pretty good duplication of the conditions that obtained on the early Earth, and there is little room for any sort of "engineering" or manipulation; anything that happens in such an environment, particularly if it is small and only allowed to run for a short time, must surely have been duplicated a trillion trillion times in the enormous volume of all the world's oceans over the enormous time of a billion years.
This begs the question, which is: How did life come into existence through a random process?

And you're still stuck on the whole probability thing. You need to think about what "random" means in this context very much more carefully. For example, it is a random chance (and a very small one) that any given uranium atom will decay in any given second; the half-life of uranium is about four billion years, which means that in four billion years, there is only a 50/50 chance that a particular atom will decay; how many seconds is that? And what, then, is the chance of the atom decaying in any given second? Yet, in a relatively small volume, a few cubic centimeters, enough of them decay in a second that it makes the uranium radioactive, and strongly enough so that it will injure you if you are exposed to it for long. And even in that small a volume it is incredibly unlikely that a second will pass in which not a single atom of uranium decays, despite the incredible unlikelihood of any single atom doing so.
You're still begging the question. No one has ever demonstrated that life can form from a random process and so, until someone does, probability arguments are unavailing.

Because the nature of the atoms in the four ices (water, ammonia, carbon dioxide, and methane) is such that they will combine in this manner and form these compounds under the conditions that obtained in the Urey-Miller experiment, and on the early Earth; their bonding strengths and angles, and the probability with which they will bond, and how those strengths and angles change when they are already bonded and encounter another already-bonded molecule, dictate how they will combine and what compounds they will form when they do so. And these characteristics, in turn, depend upon the characteristics of the electrons, protons, and neutrons that make up the atoms, the forces that bind them, and the nature of spacetime. And to top it all off, some physicists hypothesize that the characteristics of these particles and forces are also matters of the geometry of spacetime; and they have some pretty strong evidence to support this view, which is referred to as "string theory." And it is even possible that it is impossible to form that which we call a "universe" without it having this particular geometry, although that hypothesis is much less supported than the hypothesis of the geometry of spacetime determining the characteristics of the particles and forces.
Not to be a broken record, but you're still begging the question.

I am not aware of any such optimism in the "scientific community," although I am aware of a certain amount of hyperbole in the popular press. I do not think that you can produce anything but speculations on the part of a few scientists, far less definitive and far less optimistic than you or the popular press of the time claim. And in any case, why should it matter? It appears the situation is far more complex (and I mean that word in all senses- an entire new branch of mathematics has had to be created to describe it, and the name of that branch is "complexity theory") than was appreciated in the 1950s. Is this so surprising? For life to be so difficult to quantify and understand, it has to be complex and embody elegant and counter-intuitive principles, just as physics does, and even moreso. Why, then, should I or anyone be surprised that the 1950s understanding of life should prove to have been as far or farther from reality as the 1950s understanding of physics? Is it not both hyperbolic and essentially disingenuous to make such a claim?
Why do you say that the 1950s understanding of physics was far from reality? It seems to me that what has happened since that time have been refinements, rather than a revolutionary new approach.

No, can you? How about you specify the rough timeframe for when we will know whether string theory is correct or not. Can you specify that? How about when we will reach Mars with a manned mission? Or when we will cure cancer? No? Well, then, why should I be able to predict when we will understand life to that level? And why should it be proof that we will not if I cannot?
My point is that there was confidence in the scientific community during the 1950s that things were falling into place nicely for the creation of life to occur in a laboratory. And, if the universe were truly random, there is no reason to believe that it would not have. Now, however, after massive technological progress during the past 54 years, we appear to be back to Square One when it comes to creating life. Doesn't that make you wonder just a tad if the creation of life really was a random process?
 
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