A question for scientists: Primary and Secondary qualities

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Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Ian said:
Are you suggesting by this question that there is some metaphysic that requires no axioms?

~~ Paul

What else do I assume other than *I* (sorry about that ;) ) think -- or more correctly (to keep Uppie happy) 'something' thinks -- and that you do also?

Do you feel that "you think" is not a tautology?


Ian: is that in line with your ideas also?
 
Interesting Ian said:
BTW, when you say the alleged physical world is an axiom, does that mean that materialism is a faith since no attempt is made to justify this axiom?
I'd say it's less of an axiom and more of a working assumption. As of this point in time, those of us who hold said assumption don't see any strong evidence to reject said assumption.
 
Titus,

Well, I spent a little while last night thinking of a few possible replies, and I now discover you've left the field of play! I'll offer my final thoughts to you anyways, just in case you pop by...

In particular, I wanted to address this comment of yours in more detail :
I first try to work within a rational framework, i.e. an ontology. Which rules out materialism and epiphenomenalism, as these aren't rational options. It is only within a rational framework of non-materialism that I start to look for what seems likely, in the form of falsifiable hypothesis.
There are two points here - that materialism is "irrational" (and therefore unacceptable as a starting point for investigation into any particular phenomenon); and that non-materialist investigation can lead to "what seems likely".

As far as the first point goes, I won't say much - it's all been said before, I think. Your starting assumptions make it almost inevitable that you reach the conclusions about materialism that you do, yet your support for your initial assumptions seems weak to me. Your insistance on using an ontological approach forces your hand - I think that if you could loosen the grip that ontology has on your thinking, you might find the alternatives far less "irrational". But you probably already know that (and reject it), so I'll leave it be.

I'm more interested in what you mean by "what seems likely". There is/was an infrequent poster here called Eric Bowen. He has an ironclad, completely logical worldview that is based on the assumption that God and the Devil are using the universe as a battleground ("Good Versus Evil III" - pay per view only), using "alternate timelines" to explore and battle. If you grant his assumptions, *everything* else "has an answer". His worldview is built upon strong personal experience - he has encountered and conversed with one of God's Angels, and has (personal)evidence that his own past has been "edited".

If I was to repeat your "Jenny Cockell" and "Jagdish Chandra" stories to Eric, I'm confident he would declare them as fully supporting his worldview. And his world view denies reincarnation.

So I'm left with theory A, which proclaims reincarnation, and claims support from anecdote X and anecdote Y. And I also have theory B, which denies reincarnation, and claims support from anecdote X and anecdote Y. Starting to get an idea why I'm not particularly swayed by the argument that your worldview "seems likely" to you?

It's simple really, Titus. I start from the assumption that the universe is "what it seems". You start from the assumption that the universe is "what it seems", and then you add another layer - the "experient realm". Eric Bowne adds his "God and the Devil" layer. Franko adds his "Goddess and the Omniverse" layer. Ian (and Berkeley) add the "Mind of God" layer. UnderCoverElephant added his "Higher self/Omnimind" layer. In what way does your layer seem likely, compared to the (endless) alternatives?

Your argument is "look, materialism has a hole - we need something more to explain consciousness. I propose *this* as that something more". My reply is twofold :
1. Materialism might have a hole, or perhaps consciousness is simply poorly understood/defined. Perhaps it's too soon to make that call. You think the jury verdict is in, I'm still waiting to see.
2. Before I can move to a point of accepting a particular layer, I need to see (a) that data is *impossible* to explain under the good old "single layer" model, and (b) show me that the data clearly supports the layer in question rather than alternatives.

The point where we (repeatedly) disagree in regard to the evidence you bring forward is that you don't see the point in trying to dismiss materialist explanations - they are already dismissed for you right from the start since you consider the position irrational.


Finally, just wanted to comment on this exchange:
(dynamic wrote) : Yet, like Ian, you don't appear to have been as successful as you think you have at abandoning fundamental materialist axioms.

(Titus wrote) : Please clarify. I'm not aware of ever having endorsed any materialist axiom, let alone of continuing to do so. So in this sense, I haven't abondaned any of them, but then again neither was it my intention to do so. Or are you referring to something else?
This is a point I've made in the past in other threads - since you are currently a physical incarnation of an experient, you are bound by the basic laws of physics - space, time, cause and effect, etc. So everything you refer to is "colored" by these concepts. Explain "timelessness". Describe "beyond space". Explain "uncaused, but not random". Describe "infinity". You can't. They're all incomprehensible. It seems to me that the reality of the idealist/experient/dualist is permanently placed beyond the comprehension of any human (ie, physically incarnate) consciousness, since it must by definition refer to concepts that are indescribable within the terms we are given by the physical world. This doesn't mean your theories are wrong, Titus - just that they can have no meaning while we're physically here!
 
hammegk,

(I suspect you're just stirring the pot a little, but)
Conversely, pretend ontological questions are "meaningless"
If you're up to the task, I'm interested in how you resusitate ontology by starting from your "*I* think". If you can't, then in what sense is ontology "meaningful" to you?
 
Ian asked:
What axioms does my metaphysic require?
That pure consciousness exists (as Mercutio said). And once you explain how everyone's fabricated reality is the same, I'm sure you'll have to make some assumptions about that mechanism, too.

Hammy said:
What else do I assume other than *I* (sorry about that ) think -- or more correctly (to keep Uppie happy) 'something' thinks -- and that you do also?
That sounds like a good list of assumptions. You'll have a problem similar to Ian's, too.

~~ Paul
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
That pure consciousness exists (as Mercutio said). And once you explain how everyone's fabricated reality is the same, I'm sure you'll have to make some assumptions about that mechanism, too.
First you'll have to explain why it could possibly be different? Mind is the mechanism; whether 1, 2, or an infinite number of mind(s) exist. Atman/Brahman is one way to put it.


That sounds like a good list of assumptions.

~~ Paul
Obviously not a tautology for you; why is that? You don't think you (or something dreaming you(& me) ) "thinks"?
:wink8:

Loki said:

If you're up to the task, I'm interested in how you resusitate ontology by starting from your "*I* think".
I hadn't heard of its' demise.


If you can't, then in what sense is ontology "meaningful" to you?
Only logically of course; mind, matter, dualism -- whatever best floats your boat I'd say. :D
 
hammegk said:

First you'll have to explain why it could possibly be different? Mind is the mechanism; whether 1, 2, or an infinite number of mind(s) exist. Atman/Brahman is one way to put it.
So mind is axiomatic for you. Funny...I see absolutely no need for it. Different assumptions. Which, I believe, was the point.

As for an explanation--been there, done that, on this thread.
 
Thanks anyway

I'd just like to thank all of you for sharing your views with me. If it means something to you, the skeptics among you have changed my idea of skepticism. I used to think that it was incompatible with basic politeness and courtesy and now I've found out that you can even be quite generous and friendly ;). Thanks for your compliments by the way.

Maybe I'll show up on some other thread in this forum some day. Let's just say I don't regret my posts and hope that (along with the rest of the forum of course) they will be conserved for some time.

Best wishes to all of you,

Titus
 
Hammegk said:
First you'll have to explain why it could possibly be different? Mind is the mechanism; whether 1, 2, or an infinite number of mind(s) exist. Atman/Brahman is one way to put it.
Well, since mind isn't restricted to physical laws, why do all of them conjure up similar realities? Or, perhaps there are some mental laws that the mind has to adhere to. Either way, axioms.

~~ Paul
 
Mercutio said:
So mind is axiomatic for you.
Er, no. Tautological. *I* think.


Funny...I see absolutely no need for it. Different assumptions. Which, I believe, was the point.

Of course; in your case "Mercutio's objective physical body exists". I'd say that's an axiom. Works quite well too as an "explanation" of what-is. Only real problems are the life / non-life boundary, and HPC. Your own logic will make the choice you accept, Mind, Matter, or Both.

Paul said:

Well, since mind isn't restricted to physical laws, why do all of them conjure up similar realities?
The world we perceive is restricted to the TWTA, TLOP being the current math describing "interactions".


Or, perhaps there are some mental laws that the mind has to adhere to. Either way, axioms.
In the world of *me* -- perception -- science maps the "laws", although I'm positive that the math of QM and the math of GR are incompatible; basically the divisability problem. IMO, Math is an interesting topic in this regard though; 'what is "real"?'.

Many have mentioned your prime axiom ad nauseum. :D

But are there "mental laws"? The Magic 8 Ball says, "probably", and free-will again disappears into its' own grin.
 
hammegk said:

Er, no. Tautological. *I* think.


Of course; in your case "Mercutio's objective physical body exists". I'd say that's an axiom. Works quite well too as an "explanation" of what-is. Only real problems are the life / non-life boundary, and HPC. Your own logic will make the choice you accept, Mind, Matter, or Both.
Dernit, I hate philosophical terms. Axioms, tautologies...bleargh. I think that, assuming I understand what you are saying her, I agree with you.

If I accept as a starting point that mental entities exist, I really like Interesting Ian's world-view. If I start by assuming that mentalistic notions are the ficticious inference made from my physical body's private behaviors, I end up where I have argued on this thread.

I can fully understand starting with either assumption. The fact that my view is right and Ian's is wrong should not enter into it.:D
 
So far there seem to be some camps that have sorted out of the recent discussions.

Camp 1: The physical world is illogical and un-needed.

Camp 2: The mind is illogical and un-needed.

Camp 3: The physical world exists.

Camp 4: The physical world only appears to exist.

Camp 5: There is a need for a metaphysical thingy-ma-doober to have an experience.

Camp 6: The physical body is all required for an experience.

Camp 7: Questions of ontology are relevant.

Camp 8: Questions of ontology are ridiculous.

Camp 9: This bizzare misrepresentation of materialism makes it bogus.

Camp 10: This bizzare misrepresentation of idealism makes it bogus.


Common axioms:
Awareness exists.

I think that we should continue from Paul A's common point, it is irrelevant to the discussion if the universe is mind or matter. What are the common points of agreement?
 
Well I guess this time this thread really is about to die.

(Edited to add: emmmm . .mind you there's been a few replies since I started this post!)

But I'd just like to make one last comment about Titus' thoughts on reincarnation. Basically I am in absolute agreement with everything he says apart from one point. In this paper he says the following:

In contrast to all kinds of doctrines stating that amnesia regarding past lives is a positive, functional process, I hold that its consequences have always been rather nasty. Of course, there might be some positive effects of forgetting a previous life. For example, it might help a reincarnated soul to adapt to its present existence. However, the sum total is clearly very negative. First of all, if people do not remember that they have lived before, they lack the security and consolation that such memories offer in the sense that we are all immortal and cannot be destroyed by physical death. Especially in Western culture, this lack has had, and still has, disastrous consequences. Moreover, to forget the whole of one's autobiographical history before birth means a tremendous range of alienation. If we would know more who and what we have been in the past, we would know more who and what we really are now, and where we stand. It might also enhance our interest in life, our passion for it in the positive sense of this word. Our love for ourselves, our dignity, and our love and respect for all of our fellow-beings. Therefore, I strongly hold the opinion that it would be good if we could at will remember our previous lives.

Now to be quite clear I certainly do not deny that remembering ones previous lives has many benefits as Titus has adumbrated. I have no reservations in conceding that on the whole one might well be a great deal happier. I will however argue that under these particular circumstances this is not necessarily a desirable state of affairs.

In order to illustrate this I should first of all point out that I have a major disagreement with him where he says "we would know more who and what we really are now, and where we stand". Allow me to explain.

In our day-to-day existence we define ourselves to a large degree as to our actions in the past. Psychologically we think of ourselves as being a certain type of person, and, in our day-by-day existence, act in a way consistent with that. And it extends to habits also. We tend to wear the same clothes, always sit in the same place in our once a week evening class, adapt the same mannerisms etc. If we could remember our previous lives we would maybe think to ourselves "well I am this sort of person and will act accordingly". In other words you start your new life where you left off your previous life. Perhaps you could meet up with the people you knew in your previous life. Perhaps you had made plans in your previous life to ensure your financial security in this life etc.

How different it all is if we cannot remember our previous lives. Even in this life, if one suddenly suffered total amnesia, how similar would our personality be post-amnesia to our personality prior to losing our memories? And the situation is vastly exacerbated in the case of reincarnation because not only can we not remember any of our previous lives, or indeed not even any part of any of our previous lives, but our selves are operating through a completely different brain! We can imagine then that our apparent personalities from life to life might be quite different.

One might therefore initially suppose that Titus' statement "we would know more who and what we really are now, and where we stand" is indeed true since in a future life my personality might well be quite different, where as if I could remember this life my personality in my future life would be somewhat more similar.

But this misses a crucial point. It is not the case that my true self is somehow more accurately represented by my actions in this life than any other unremembered past life or future life. Our beliefs, actions, and therefore personality in any life, will be influenced by the intrinsic self, our essence, or, if you like, our soul. But our beliefs, actions and therefore personality will be influenced to a far greater extent by both our brains in any given life and also to our psychological adaptation to the circumstances in any particular life, in particularly acting and defining our being in such a way so as to basically "fit in" to the social reality we find ourselves in (incidentally, as an aside I believe that more enlightened souls will be less influenced by this last factor and will show greater consistency in successive incarnations than less enlightened souls).

Thus if we could remember our previous lives then we will define our selves to a large degree upon previous ways we have defined ourselves, which were defined under particular circumstances. If however we forget our previous lives then the one consistent influence over successive incarnations will be the intrinsic self or soul. Over many many lives this is the one factor which will shine through, and even though ostensibly ones personality may vary radically from one life to the next, there will be a common essence from life to life. This might be discerned in more enlightened souls. For example, if a person in any particular life is a kind and loving person, and this is not a false front so that you are acting the role so that other people will think and treat you in a certain way, but rather is an expression of your intrinsic essence, then one might expect this kind and loving nature to be evident in successive incarnations.

Yes, in any given life we would be more happy if we could remember our previous lives. But the purpose of our lives is to aspire towards our ultimate teleological destinies, so to speak, not just to aspire towards being as happy as possible. In my opinion such a teleological destiny can be approached by a process of "soul-making" whereby one aspires to ultimate understanding of all things and all other people (beings); ultimate empathy with all things and all other people, and finally, and especially, ultimately love for all things and other people. Forgetting our previous lives, in my opinion, is the most profitable for aspiring towards and reaching that goal.
 
Allowing myself another non-skeptical message on this thread

Ian said:

Thus if we could remember our previous lives then we will define our selves to a large degree upon previous ways we have defined ourselves, which were defined under particular circumstances. If however we forget our previous lives then the one consistent influence over successive incarnations will be the intrinsic self or soul. Over many many lives this is the one factor which will shine through, and even though ostensibly ones personality may vary radically from one life to the next, there will be a common essence from life to life. This might be discerned in more enlightened souls. For example, if a person in any particular life is a kind and loving person, and this is not a false front so that you are acting the role so that other people will think and treat you in a certain way, but rather is an expression of your intrinsic essence, then one might expect this kind and loving nature to be evident in successive incarnations.
I disagree, as you already thought I would. In my ontology, one soul is not say essentially more loving than another. The structural differences come about as a result of the history of a personal soul. They are developed or acquired traits rather than ultimate ones. This is precisely one of the reasons why historical knowledge of one's own previous life is so important. We've become what we are because of our history. Not only in a passive way of what happened to us in the past, but also through our past decisions. In my system, the present brain and body are much less important for where we stand today than this what I sometimes call multivital heritage, i.e. heritage of many personal lives.

Forgetting our previous lives, in my opinion, is the most profitable for aspiring towards and reaching that goal.
I don't see how. The more conscious knowledge we have of what it is like to be in a certain situation etc., the easier it will be to empathise and sympathise with another person in that situation.

For me amnesia is like useless pain: it's the result of a larger, meaningful system, but it isn't meaningful itself and it should be undone if possible. For me frying to find a deeper reason for it, is like finding a deeper reason for feeling excruciating pain at the dentist's practice. I'd rather use some "anaesthesia".

Best wishes,

Titus
 
Thanks for responding Titus. :)

:wow2: an apparently profound disagreement between the 2 of us! I won't be responding tonight though cos going to be drinking soon and playing Max Payne 2. Should help me towards fulfilling my teleological destiny ;)

How do you others feel? Do you think that I or Titus is correct about this?
 
I see no reason why remembering past lives would be anything but horrific. Good memories: can't have the situation back. Bad memories: who wants 'em?

Titus seems to have us in a situation where our behavior is dictated by past lives, yet we can't usually remember those lives. Feh! Who needs free will when your entire life is a psychological nightmare? No wonder psychological counseling doesn't work.

~~ Paul
 
Multiple factors, including conscious decisions

Paul,
Titus seems to have us in a situation where our behavior is dictated by past lives, yet we can't usually remember those lives.

I never said that our behaviour was dictated by the past, just that our personality make-up is the result of the sum total of all our lives, including this one. So that isn't very different from the common "univital" (limited to one life) psychological picture, except that the usual emphasis on genetics is replaced by a model in which both genetics, the present environment, our conscious decisions + last but not least our personality molded in previous lives determine what we are here and now.

Horriffic? Certainly less horrific than the (let's not repeat the i-word ;)) idea that our personal (subjective) life will be obliterated by physical death.

Best wishes,

Titus
 

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