A question for evolutionist

Educate him? Don't think that's possible. It's like putting oil into a car that has no sump.

But tolerate his claims without a push for reasonable evidence and a demonstration of how science works? No.

Athon
 
Foster Zygote said:
Sadly, it's just an avatar. 'Boose actually looks like this:
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I've got good authority to disagree. Noblecaboose is far, far more gorgeous than both the bearded wonder there and her avatar combined. Although now that I think of it, combining her avatar with that picture has made me feel a little nauseous.

I shouldn't have thought that. Ugh.

Athon
 
D'rok the Lacone said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you sound like you're about to defend the legitimacy of Dustin's conversion "experience". You should keep in mind that this is a person who claims to have been converted overnight to disbelief in evolution by reading half of Behe's book.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2692024#post2692024

Something smells fishy here.
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You're wrong. I will explain below.

Jeff Corey said:
No. In my experience, it has never worked that way. I know one guy who is 84, started going back to church. I asked him if he had started playing Pascal's wager. He said, "It couldn't hurt."
I think this guy is playing us.
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My own experience with theism and atheism has been that my desire to be a theist has been driven by my desire to belong. Long story short, I have had several "religious experiences" that made me want to become a Christian, but because I never nurtured those impulses (as that would mean changing my daily routine), I always fell back on my default atheism/agnosticism.

The point is that I experienced euphoria when I had those "religious experiences" but as the euphoria wore off and I didn't make an effort to engage in ritualistic behavior to reinforce it, I transitioned back to atheism/agnosticism. Thus, I was wondering if, in the experience of the atheists here, the realization of atheism is a much slower process than the "road to Damascus" epiphany that some people claim to have when they read C. S. Lewis, and if the difference in the swiftness in this "about-face" (whether from atheism to theism or vice versa) is what leads people to trust someone's "conversion" from theism to atheism more that the reverse conversion.
 
mijopaalmc said:
You're wrong. I will explain below.



My own experience with theism and atheism has been that my desire to be a theist has been driven by my desire to belong. Long story short, I have had several "religious experiences" that made me want to become a Christian, but because I never nurtured those impulses (as that would mean changing my daily routine), I always fell back on my default atheism/agnosticism.

The point is that I experienced euphoria when I had those "religious experiences" but as the euphoria wore off and I didn't make an effort to engage in ritualistic behavior to reinforce it, I transitioned back to atheism/agnosticism. Thus, I was wondering if, in the experience of the atheists here, the realization of atheism is a much slower process than the "road to Damascus" epiphany that some people claim to have when they read C. S. Lewis, and if the difference in the swiftness in this "about-face" (whether from atheism to theism or vice versa) is what leads people to trust someone's "conversion" from theism to atheism more that the reverse conversion.
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The euphoria part I just don't get. Other than some great sex, I cannot ever remember experiencing euphoria. Especially reading C.S.Lewis. That was more like boredom. Maybe I'm just one of those materialists.
 
Jeff Corey said:
The euphoria part I just don't get. Other than some great sex, I cannot ever remember experiencing euphoria. Especially reading C.S.Lewis. That was more like boredom. Maybe I'm just one of those materialists.
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Were you ever a teenage outcast?

It is nice to find a group of people who will "accept" you for "who you are".
 
Jeff Corey said:
How about you? Were you the one who knew all the answers on the test and then got beat up at recess?
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Unambiguously yes, and I went to a "school for the gifted" for grade school. I took this as an excuse to be an a**hole of the nth degree in high school an socially awkward in college, and intellectually superior after that. Of course, it's hard not to be a little miffed when you're around people who hold diametrically opposed views as you do and have never had them seriously questioned. The same thing could be said about me and my views.

I have created another thread so as not to hijack this one any further.
 
Lothian said:
Following his recent Rhinehartesc policy of believing the last thing he read; he is now frozen in time staring at a carton of orange juice with concentrate written on the side.
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I don't know if that is original with you, but it got an audible chuckle out of me. Thanks. :)
 
Jeff Corey said:
So he is a doofus and we should try to educate him?
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Athon was probably right in his response. I wouldn't go so far as to say doofus because he does have a form of intelligence that is missing in many people. I am being blunt in not only his limitations but its nature in the hopes that he will at least find coping mechanisms. I certainly have limitations myself.

You don't have to let his statements stand as this is a public forum with more than just one persons ego at stake. Read his "Proof of God" and notice that the "proof" itself depends on implied content rather than factual content. This is the central disconnect in all his debates on this board. Keep this in mind when responding.
 
So here's a question.

The reason pain and suffering exist in the world - according to Christianity - is basically because of man's rebelliousness. God did indeed make the world perfect to begin with, but because Eve listened to that dastardly serpent she bit into the apple, and then Adam bit into the apple, so God punished us with an imperfect world - pain, suffering, ect. But here's what doesn't make sense - if God did indeed make a perfect world to begin with, how could it turn into something imperfect? The presence of a cunning serpent, Eve's credulousness, and God's absence in that event seems like a mistake in itself. So either God is incapable of making a perfect world, or he deliberately created a world that would fall into pain, suffering, ect. Thougths?
 
Foster Zygote said:
Sadly, it's just an avatar. 'Boose actually looks like this:
Click to expand...


Yup.

Big ol' gut, bushy beard, ruler suspenders, and a truck.
But that's only on the weekends when I sneak off to truck stops and troll for skanky waitresses.

The rest of the week I look like this:
 
laxmatt said:
So here's a question.

The reason pain and suffering exist in the world - according to Christianity - is basically because of man's rebelliousness. God did indeed make the world perfect to begin with, but because Eve listened to that dastardly serpent she bit into the apple, and then Adam bit into the apple, so God punished us with an imperfect world - pain, suffering, ect. But here's what doesn't make sense - if God did indeed make a perfect world to begin with, how could it turn into something imperfect? The presence of a cunning serpent, Eve's credulousness, and God's absence in that event seems like a mistake in itself. So either God is incapable of making a perfect world, or he deliberately created a world that would fall into pain, suffering, ect. Thougths?
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What makes you think there is even anything to understand? The old testament is a much later rewrite of earlier Sumerian epics. Not even a very good one at that. Then you have translations that occurred before the new testament that morphed many ideas and added the rough equivalent of hell. Then the Roman Empire chose which books actually got into todays bible and added more stuff. Destroyed books they deemed not fit for it. More translations. Many of the languages used didn't even have past and future tenses. Much of the christian icons were created during the renaissance. Even our image of Jesus is Itallian not Jewish. I've even watched the interpretations have morphed in my own lifetime. So when you want to understand something about the bible you must ask when where and compared to what. Pointless.

Search;
"Sumerian Adam"
"Sumerian Noah"
"Sumerian epic"
 
Wowbagger said:
Remember: Evolution is a gradual process. Anyone whose arguments against evolution define it as anything other than that is not doing something right.
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ISTM that depends what you mean by 'gradual'. I see a lot of arguments that assume 'gradual' means slow and relatively uniform in pace. AIUI the current consensus is that evolution is gradual but not uniform - a very broad range of rates of change - i.e. periods of slow change and periods of more rapid change, driven by changes in selection pressures varying from gentle and steady to severe and rapid.
 
my_wan said:
What makes you think there is even anything to understand? The old testament is a much later rewrite of earlier Sumerian epics. Not even a very good one at that. Then you have translations that occurred before the new testament that morphed many ideas and added the rough equivalent of hell. Then the Roman Empire chose which books actually got into todays bible and added more stuff. Destroyed books they deemed not fit for it. More translations. Many of the languages used didn't even have past and future tenses. Much of the christian icons were created during the renaissance. Even our image of Jesus is Itallian not Jewish. I've even watched the interpretations have morphed in my own lifetime. So when you want to understand something about the bible you must ask when where and compared to what. Pointless.

Search;
"Sumerian Adam"
"Sumerian Noah"
"Sumerian epic"
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Well yea. But I wanted to know how Jesus Freak would explain away the problem.
 
laxmatt, I thought my_wan was being unduly harsh.

Besides that, his post taught me something--I didn't know Genesis came from Sumerian epics.

And when we have jesus_freak seriously claiming that all animals before the flood were vegetarians, we've reached a peak of absurdity. That was a new one for me.

jf, can't you keep your faith in Jesus as a mystical saviour, but throw out all the literalist nonsense?

If not, why not?
 
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calebprime said:
laxmatt, I thought my_wan was being unduly harsh.

Besides that, his post taught me something--I didn't know Genesis came from Sumerian epics.

And when we have jesus_freak seriously claiming that all animals before the flood were vegetarians, we've reached a peak of absurdity. That was a new one for me.

jf, can't you keep your faith in Jesus as a mystical saviour, but throw out all the literalist nonsense?

If not, why not?
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I sometimes get very harsh in my responses. Sometimes too harsh for proper effect in hindsight. In that post I don't even see any harshness. Perhaps it was in the fact that I directed the question at laxmatt when he was being rhetorical. My main objection in his case was engaging in debate over the minutia of a belief when the basis for the debate itself was demonstrably invalid.
 
my_wan said:
I sometimes get very harsh in my responses. Sometimes too harsh for proper effect in hindsight. In that post I don't even see any harshness. Perhaps it was in the fact that I directed the question at laxmatt when he was being rhetorical. My main objection in his case was engaging in debate over the minutia of a belief when the basis for the debate itself was demonstrably invalid.
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I don't see it as minutia. Trying to explain the existence of pain and suffering is at the core of christian belief. And the best answer christians can come up with is basically "it's our fault". Yet by any reasonable judgement, God is at fault for screwing up creation. Seems to me that it strikes quite a blow to the entire christian belief system. What I think is telling, though, is Jesus Freak has yet to answer the question.
 
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