A flaw with the belief in reincarnation?

[Iamme]

To be reincarnated means that you would have had to come form some past life. Were you also reincarnated in that past life? And so on and so on?

There comes a point where somewheres down the road, there had to have been original life. And out of that original life came reincarnated life (if you so believe this)

That being said; if life comes into existance somehow, originally, in it's pure nonreincarnated state...then why believe that future life becomes recycled (reincarnated)? Why not JUST believe in all life as being original? Why believe that there is both?

 

[CFLarsen]

Try to compute how many souls are needed up until now.

Then try to look at the population growth for the next 40-50 years.

If you believe in reincarnation, you got a big problem.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Try to compute how many souls are needed up until now.

Then try to look at the population growth for the next 40-50 years.

If you believe in reincarnation, you got a big problem.

You only get a problem if you assume that humans are always reincarnated from other humans.

 

[CFLarsen]

You only get a problem if you assume that humans are always reincarnated from other humans.

True. Reincarnation is tied with the wheel of karma, so you are responsible for what you do here, and will be rewarded - or punished - in your next life.

However, modern-day proponents of reincarnation often don't like that, so we are reborn as humans, no matter what we do.

Sylvia Browne, e.g. claims that we are reborn as ourselves.

 

[Scott Wheeler]

Ever notice that people who think they have been lived past lives often think they were someone like George Washington or Cleopatra? (I really heard both of those claims)

 

[Darat]

To be reincarnated means that you would have had to come form some past life. Were you also reincarnated in that past life? And so on and so on?

There comes a point where somewheres down the road, there had to have been original life. And out of that original life came reincarnated life (if you so believe this)

That being said; if life comes into existance somehow, originally, in it's pure nonreincarnated state...then why believe that future life becomes recycled (reincarnated)? Why not JUST believe in all life as being original? Why believe that there is both?

Your conclusions do not logically follow from your premises.

Can you explain how and why if reincarnation is true it necessarily follows that life had an origin?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

The biggest flaw in reincarnation are the memories. Where did they come from? It is impossible that you are born with them. Your memories are in your brain. You start out as an egg and sperm without a brain. Your memories are matter, in your brain. You cannot have any memories from past lives.

When you die you no longer have a memory. Your memories die with you completely.

Therefore sylvia cannot talk to dead people or whatever it is she claims she does. The dead will not have a clue who their relatives are, in fact the dead no longer think at all or communicate. They are dead.
Now I do know people think somehow our memories are magical non-matter things, and they somehow stay with our 'spirit' after death. This is not the case. It is just like saying water has a memory. It is impossible.

Unless you can trap a spirit and show me it has memories, then remembering past lives is not possible. Having a past life is ridiculous since you start out as an egg and sperm...

Now, the only possibility of saying you have any claim on past lives is in your dna. Every egg and every sperm has dna. You make new eggs and sperm and dna when you are developing individually, but that dna is an age old pattern interwoven with past patterns from your ancestors.

Where is that dna from the original sperm and egg? Well, I can say it really won't end up in your eggs or sperm..so your kids aren't going to have any age old dna, but the patterns are age old.

That is what I find fascinating. I have patterns of dna that go back to who knows how long!

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

The biggest flaw in reincarnation are the memories. Where did they come from? It is impossible that you are born with them. Your memories are in your brain. You start out as an egg and sperm without a brain. Your memories are matter, in your brain. You cannot have any memories from past lives.

Some song and dance about the "soul" infusing itself into the fetal brain at some stage of development.

Either that or "Akashik records".

They really do have an "answer" for all the obvious objections.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Ever notice that people who think they have been lived past lives often think they were someone like George Washington or Cleopatra? (I really heard both of those claims)

Well there was "Bridey Murphy", but usually you are right.

And nobody remembers being a cockroach in a past life.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

True. Reincarnation is tied with the wheel of karma, so you are responsible for what you do here, and will be rewarded - or punished - in your next life.

However, modern-day proponents of reincarnation often don't like that, so we are reborn as humans, no matter what we do.

Sylvia Browne, e.g. claims that we are reborn as ourselves.

If so, think of souls as a limited resource like any other that might be a problem due to overpopulation.

It doesn't prove that reincarnation is untrue, only that there will be a problem.

Suddenly reincarnation becomes a testable hypothesis.

 

[John Bentley]

The biggest flaw in reincarnation are the memories. Where did they come from? It is impossible that you are born with them.

Not exactly true. Certain animals are born with their parent's memories.
For instance, salmon spawn at sea but are able to return and mate in the exact river and headwaters in which their parents mated.
Many forms of insects are hatched in isolation without the parents being present, but can display complex behaviors without being taught, and can return unerringly to sites where their parents mated, etc.
I believe it is generally assumed that they have a sort of genetic memory that structures their neural pathways to give them "ready made" memories when they are born.
Just playing devil's advocate.

 

[Dancing David]

Not exactly true. Certain animals are born with their parent's memories.
For instance, salmon spawn at sea but are able to return and mate in the exact river and headwaters in which their parents mated.
Many forms of insects are hatched in isolation without the parents being present, but can display complex behaviors without being taught, and can return unerringly to sites where their parents mated, etc.
[/B]

Interesting but the first has an easier explanation:

The eggs are laid in the upstream areas and then hatch, the fry develpe into fingerlings in the headwaters and then migrate to sea, so they develop in the rivers that they retwun to.

For the second: stereo typic behaviors are considered to have an almost 100% biological derivation.

What gets more interesting is the migration of butterflies and sea turtles.

 

[Bjorn]

For instance, salmon spawn at sea but are able to return and mate in the exact river and headwaters in which their parents mated. [/B]

I would like to know the difference between 'spawn' and 'mate' when it comes to salmon.

As far as I know, they have always spawned in freshwater.

 

[LucyR]

I would like to know the difference between 'spawn' and 'mate' when it comes to salmon.

As far as I know, they have always spawned in freshwater.

Spawn, the noun, is the egg mass, isn't it? The verb means to lay the egg mass. I suppose that in this context "mate" means coming together for the pupose of reproduction.

 

[Iamme]

Re: Re: A flaw with the belief in reincarnation?

Your conclusions do not logically follow from your premises.

Can you explain how and why if reincarnation is true it necessarily follows that life had an origin?

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I'm not exactly sure where I am flawed. You were the first to point this out. But regardless, I will try to answer your question.

First of all..I am presuming it is >NOT< true. But let's say it is, for argument sake. I have given thought to an endless revolving universe where there really is no beginning. But supposedly, scientists believe all parts of the universe had a beginning, and likewise predict it will come to an end (as we know the universe to be). Also likewise, scientists have said that life had a beginning on earth: That it just wasn't always. Life began about 4-4.5 billion years ago. "Man" began as ape-man just several million? years ago.

So where am I flawed in believing in this original life? Or, are you approaching this from the angle of the spirit or soul. That perhaps there never was a beginning for the soul of man? If this is what you are looking to get into, then first of all, we wold have to agree that the sould of man would have to predate man himself, obviously. That would mean that man came from the soul, rather than vice-versa.

That being said...what is the purpose for reincarnated souls, ...as opposed to original souls being 'born'?

 

[Bjorn]

Spawn, the noun, is the egg mass, isn't it? The verb means to lay the egg mass. I suppose that in this context "mate" means coming together for the pupose of reproduction.

What I quoted was:

Originally posted by John Bentley
For instance, salmon spawn at sea but are able to return and mate in the exact river and headwaters in which their parents mated.

My point was that they don't spawn at sea, they do it in the river. In other words, there is nothing to stop them from 'remembering' where they were 'born' and go back to the same river to spawn themselves. They don't need to be born with the parents' memories, as JB claimed.

Moving hatched eggs to another river will usually make the salmon return to the 'new' river, not the one they were hatched in - a piece of evidence that the parents' memories are not what creates the tracking abilities.

As for doing the mating/flirting out in the ocean, I don't think so - at least I'm quite sure they are not coming in to the rivers in couples. But maybe they have agreed on a date to meet?

 

[LucyR]

Hadn't read the thread - just took your question at face value. Sorry.

 

[Bjorn]

If so, think of souls as a limited resource like any other that might be a problem due to overpopulation.

It doesn't prove that reincarnation is untrue, only that there will be a problem.

Wasn't the problem a lot bigger a hundred thousands years ago, when there were far too many souls compared to the number of people?

If we are 6 billion people on Earth, we should have at least 6 billion available and fully occupied souls - assuming we all have one (sometimes one wonders). What did all these souls occupy their time with when we had only, say, 1 million people on Earth?

"Someone is making new ones as we go" is not a good answer, as it would imply incarnation rather than re-incarnation.

 

[John Bentley]

My point was that they don't spawn at sea, they do it in the river. In other words, there is nothing to stop them from 'remembering' where they were 'born' and go back to the same river to spawn themselves. They don't need to be born with the parents' memories, as JB claimed.

Well darn,
I hate to be just plain wrong. Oh well, that should teach me to spout off before I look it up.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Well darn,
I hate to be just plain wrong. Oh well, that should teach me to spout off before I look it up.

I think a good many of us have done that at least once. We do have to mind what we think compared to what is actual fact. Good lesson to learn anytime.

Admirably,

Eos