A Fifth Dimension?

[Iacchus]

From this thread

'Nothing' does not exist, Iacchus, it the absense of existance. 'Inside the universe, there is existance.

This is not the question though ... Was there ever time when only nothing existed? Or, what was the something that existed before the Universe began?

If you're saying that the Universe occurred as a result of the Big Bang, meaning the Universe did not exist prior to that and, that this "thing" which the Universe began to expand into which, is the same thing you refer to as "nothing" that currently exists/not-exists outside of it, what is the Universe expanding into? ... if not nothing and/or something? It would seem to me you've just discovered the existence of a fifth dimension.

 

[kmortis]

But we've known about a Fifth Dimesnion for a long time. Here

 

[Iacchus]

From this thread

Two dimensions is not "nothing".

How so? A second dimemsion can only exist if there are two oppossing surfaces, where each surface represents a dimension containing its own volume if you will. Hence you have dimension A, containing its own volume and extending out as far as its surface, pressing against dimension B, it too containing its own volume and extending out as far as its surface as well. So really all you have is dimension A, pressed up against dimension B with, nothing in-between! This "is" the nothing that you folks are looking at!

Yeah, it goes much quicker when you are not constrained by truth.

I hear you there brother!

 

[Iacchus]

From this thread

Well see that's the point. You're still thinking about the 2-dimensional analogy in 3-dimensional sense. the surface of the balloon is supposed to be representative of our 3-dimensions.

Yes, but why is the balloon expanding in the first place? Do you think it could have something to do with the expansion of the volume of air on the inside, versus the displacement of the air on the outside? This tells me that something has changed on both the inside as well as outside of the balloon, regardless of the surface area (of both surfaces of the balloon and the air), which is directly proportional to this expansion/displacement "thingee."

 

[Iacchus]

From this thread

Please understand, that balloon is an analogy, there is no inside or outside, only the surface.

It is just a picture to descripe the expansion of our universe. And as analogies go, it isn't perfect.

Are you saying "something" is not getting displaced in order to allow the balloon to expand? Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, unless it were a hologram or something.

 

[Timble]

Don't know why you're worried about a fifth dimension. Some theories call for as many as 11, but those are by people who have some understanding of maths, physics and what they're talking about.

 

[uruk]

From this thread

Yes, but why is the balloon expanding in the first place? Do you think it could have something to do with the expansion of the volume of air on the inside, versus the displacement of the air on the outside? This tells me that something has changed on both the inside as well as outside of the balloon, regardless of the surface area (of both surfaces of the balloon and the air), which is directly proportional to this expansion/displacement "thingee."

Your still thinking in three dimensions. For the denizens of a 2 dimensional realm a third dimension would be very hard to grasp. They would not know where to point to a third dimension. "Up" would have no meaning to them.
Just like us pointing to "schmalts", which is our fourth spatial dimension, has no meaning to us. Which way do we point to schmalts?
Quantum theory says there may be as much as nine other spatial dimension to our universe. Where are they? We don't know where to point.

Ponder a tessarect or hyper cube. It is a 3d representation of a 4d object. To us it looks like a small cube within a larger cube with thier corners connected each other by a line. in our 3 dimensions the line appear to be 45 degrees. in 4 dimendsion the line are 90 degrees. Impossible in our 3d realm.
See here:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Hypercube.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7997/

 

[Iacchus]

But we've known about a Fifth Dimesnion for a long time. Here

Or, how about here ...

A Newborn Baby

8 I fell back asleep shortly after this while laying on my back. And was only asleep a short while when I re-awoke to this incredible screeching noise—wailing in my ears! And I opened my eyes to the sight of this newborn baby, which completely filled my vision before me! (I lay on my back looking up at the ceiling of the cab.) Again I was wide awake! It was a breathtaking sight to behold, and when this child cried, he cried in such a demanding way (it was a boy and he cried about ten times), letting the whole world know he had just been delivered and required immediate attending to. I soon became uncomfortable, due to the immediacy of the moment, and desired that the child be removed, for fear I would cause it harm. I kind of backed away, as I lay there crouched in the front seat, and the child was removed, and taken up into heaven.

9 I lay there for a moment, as my mind was struck with wonder. And I heard a song, from up above. It was faint and barely audible but still discernable. It was the song, Age of Aquarius, by the popular musical group, The Fifth Dimension. I know they say we're living in the Aquarian Age, but I'm still not sure what that means? And for another moment I lapsed into a state of unconsciousness. When I re-awoke, there was a vision of a cross, held suspended in the middle of the sky and arrayed in a very special way (as portrayed in the next chapter).

It's funny, but I'd always kind of wondered about the connection to the Fifth Dimension here (the musical group). While here it is 18 years later and, now that I've posted the thread, it kind of makes more sense.

 

[kmortis]

Ooo...we just added another book to your reading list, Iacchus. Wrinkle in Time.

 

[Iacchus]

Don't know why you're worried about a fifth dimension. Some theories call for as many as 11, but those are by people who have some understanding of maths, physics and what they're talking about.

Albeit we are speaking of that which stands outside of time and space aren't we?

 

[Iacchus]

Your still thinking in three dimensions. For the denizens of a 2 dimensional realm a third dimension would be very hard to grasp. They would not know where to point to a third dimension. "Up" would have no meaning to them.

Except that there is no thickness to the second dimension whatsover, and without thickness you can't have volume. Which in effect says the second dimension is wholly imaginary ... with respect to the notion of any "beings" living there. This is also the "nothing" I was referring to above by the way.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

From this thread

Are you saying "something" is not getting displaced in order to allow the balloon to expand?

Yes i am. Everyone have been trying to explain you that for a few days.

Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, unless it were a hologram or something.

Makes perfect sence. And hologram doesn't enter into it. Hologram isn't valid.

You might just as well have written "Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, unless it were a CAR or something."

 

[uruk]

Except that there is no thickness to the second dimension whatsover, and without thickness you can't have volume. Which in effect says the second dimension is wholly imaginary ... with respect to the notion of any "beings" living there. This is also the "nothing" I was referring to above by the way.

The 2D denizens version of "volume" would be "area". "Volume" is simply the area occupied within boundry a of 3 dimensions. For them 'volume" is unheard of and nonexistant. "Volume" would be nothing to them. So from thier POV, thier universe is expaning into nothing. Now project that in to our 3 dimensions. What is our universe expanding into?

 

[Robin]

From this thread

This is not the question though ... Was there ever time when only nothing existed? Or, what was the something that existed before the Universe began?

If you're saying that the Universe occurred as a result of the Big Bang, meaning the Universe did not exist prior to that and, that this "thing" which the Universe began to expand into which, is the same thing you refer to as "nothing" that currently exists/not-exists outside of it, what is the Universe expanding into? ... if not nothing and/or something? It would seem to me you've just discovered the existence of a fifth dimension.

As far as I am aware science is up to about 10 or 11 dimensions.

Is your fifth one of those? Or should it be the 12th dimension.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

As far as I am aware science is up to about 10 or 11 dimensions.

Is your fifth one of those? Or should it be the 12th dimension.

Ed Widden got it up to 11 with M-Theory. Before that it was mostly 10, though there have been a few String Theories out there with as much as 26 i think.

But, with the unification into M-Theory, we are at 11.

Sincerely
Tobias.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The 2D denizens version of "volume" would be "area". "Volume" is simply the area occupied within boundry a of 3 dimensions. For them 'volume" is unheard of and nonexistant. "Volume" would be nothing to them. So from thier POV, thier universe is expaning into nothing. Now project that in to our 3 dimensions. What is our universe expanding into?

I read somewhere, and cannot recall where, that a 2D resident would perceive a 3D object passing through the 2D as an event occuring over time and not a single unified object. If the second dimension were a sheet of paper, and you shoved a baseball through it, they couldn't perceive it as a single sphere. They'd see a point appear, expand to a circle, then contract back to a point and vanish. Unless they were very imaginative, 2D residents wouldn't conclude that the strange event was actually an object from another dimension.

The eerie possibility, then, is that there might be things we perceive as events that are actually objects from a higher dimension passing through. We just can't connect the dots to figure out what they might be.

 

[alfaniner]

I recommend Flatland by Abbott. I read it in high school upon recommendation from my math teacher and found it simple to understand, yet fascinating.

I haven't gotten to Sphereland yet but it's in my "to read" stack.

 

[Iacchus]

If the second dimension were a sheet of paper, and you shoved a baseball through it, they couldn't perceive it as a single sphere. They'd see a point appear, expand to a circle, then contract back to a point and vanish. Unless they were very imaginative, 2D residents wouldn't conclude that the strange event was actually an object from another dimension.

A piece of paper? How so? Even a piece of paper has thickness to it. And for that matter, I suppose even atoms do don't they?

 

[Upchurch]

A piece of paper? How so? Even a piece of paper has thickness to it. And for that matter, I suppose even atoms do don't they?

This metaphor is too abstract for you to understand? Seriously?

I've asked this before, but if you've answered, I've never seen it. Iacchus, do you know what a dimension is? And, if so, what is it?

 

[uruk]

I read somewhere, and cannot recall where, that a 2D resident would perceive a 3D object passing through the 2D as an event occuring over time and not a single unified object. If the second dimension were a sheet of paper, and you shoved a baseball through it, they couldn't perceive it as a single sphere. They'd see a point appear, expand to a circle, then contract back to a point and vanish. Unless they were very imaginative, 2D residents wouldn't conclude that the strange event was actually an object from another dimension.

The eerie possibility, then, is that there might be things we perceive as events that are actually objects from a higher dimension passing through. We just can't connect the dots to figure out what they might be.

Carl Sagan talks about this in one of the episode of Cosmos.