Nobody ever asked. Still haven't. Its not rocket science either.
I said as much already.
A dialogue on acupuncture
- Thread starter vlix
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- acupuncture dialogue
Nobody ever asked. Still haven't. Its not rocket science either.
I said as much already.
RationalVetMed
Graduate Poster
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It can't be said that the treatment worked, all that can be said from your rather cryptic description is that an improvement followed the treatment. This is different from an improvement being caused by the treatment. To prove cause and effect you need multiple treatments done in an ordered and blinded way using placebo controls. That way you can tell the difference between effective treatment and coincidence.
You don't need to prove cause and effect with your mechanic removing the oil filter - in such a simple system you can directly visualise all components as they interract, this is not the case with headaches.
Yuri (increasingly fed up with low grade, chronic, trolling)
in a friendly and lively way
Hello jon,
It was no "cure". Using the term "cure" is misleading, and possibly illegal under current American Law. What I stated was:
It seems to me, (I can't be sure, this is just observation), that a simple anecdote to make a point, was somehow turned into a cure for headaches, even when there was nothing said about a cure for headaches.
It is possible that you confused my commentary with this:
Another instance of somebody confusing my commentary, restating something not said, and jumping to a conclusion based on no evidence. This tendency may be behind the lack of good natured and energetic discussion that seems to haunt some threads. Because I do the same thing, misunderstand, confuse, and distort the meaning of what somebody is trying to say, I try to laugh about it, rather than engage in the pointless drivel of personal asides, joking and off topic rhetoric that adds little to a conversation, but much to our sense of superiority.
To compare with the example of the stuck oil filter, if I stated that all oil filters could be removed with this method, or made sweeping statements about what caused the oil filter to be stuck, based on one experience, that would be unscientific.
And while nobody has asked "what was the treatment you observed", rather than face the obvious discontent of the reader, it was massage and hydrotherapy. The feet in hot water, cold cloth on head, to cause blood flow to change, combined with massage of specific points and areas to relieve tension effecting blood flow to the head and neck.
The woo part to me, was that simple hot/cold water would cause such a rapid blood flow change. I watched it happen, and it was obvious the relief such a simple thing caused. No doubt the massage alone would have helped, no doubt a scientific test would be just the water, no doubt the massage alone could be tested, but people suffering headaches don't really care. They care about results.
I also didn't want the topic to veer off into a discussion about headaches and hydrotherapy, or personal slams on my lack of ability to watch something and figure out physiological effects. Silly me.
To move somehow back on topic, in regards to acupuncture, (which I do not defend or accept), it would be foolish to simply believe that everything about it works. It is also hard to accept even the protocols that are set up to try and test isolated effects from a very limited set of conditions. The animal studies go against current thought on how organisms work, and one tends to think there must be some sort of trickery involved, or mistakes in the setup, because how can a needle inserted elsewhere, (or any other stimulus), cause effects on stomachs, or other organs?
How can you even know where the points are? A more scientific test would be to test with every point, and measure what effect is created. So the experiment would be asking, can a needle (or needles), inserted in the skin cause effects on other areas of the organism?
Hello jon,
It was no "cure". Using the term "cure" is misleading, and possibly illegal under current American Law. What I stated was:
It seems to me, (I can't be sure, this is just observation), that a simple anecdote to make a point, was somehow turned into a cure for headaches, even when there was nothing said about a cure for headaches.
It is possible that you confused my commentary with this:
Another instance of somebody confusing my commentary, restating something not said, and jumping to a conclusion based on no evidence. This tendency may be behind the lack of good natured and energetic discussion that seems to haunt some threads. Because I do the same thing, misunderstand, confuse, and distort the meaning of what somebody is trying to say, I try to laugh about it, rather than engage in the pointless drivel of personal asides, joking and off topic rhetoric that adds little to a conversation, but much to our sense of superiority.
To compare with the example of the stuck oil filter, if I stated that all oil filters could be removed with this method, or made sweeping statements about what caused the oil filter to be stuck, based on one experience, that would be unscientific.
And while nobody has asked "what was the treatment you observed", rather than face the obvious discontent of the reader, it was massage and hydrotherapy. The feet in hot water, cold cloth on head, to cause blood flow to change, combined with massage of specific points and areas to relieve tension effecting blood flow to the head and neck.
The woo part to me, was that simple hot/cold water would cause such a rapid blood flow change. I watched it happen, and it was obvious the relief such a simple thing caused. No doubt the massage alone would have helped, no doubt a scientific test would be just the water, no doubt the massage alone could be tested, but people suffering headaches don't really care. They care about results.
I also didn't want the topic to veer off into a discussion about headaches and hydrotherapy, or personal slams on my lack of ability to watch something and figure out physiological effects. Silly me.
To move somehow back on topic, in regards to acupuncture, (which I do not defend or accept), it would be foolish to simply believe that everything about it works. It is also hard to accept even the protocols that are set up to try and test isolated effects from a very limited set of conditions. The animal studies go against current thought on how organisms work, and one tends to think there must be some sort of trickery involved, or mistakes in the setup, because how can a needle inserted elsewhere, (or any other stimulus), cause effects on stomachs, or other organs?
How can you even know where the points are? A more scientific test would be to test with every point, and measure what effect is created. So the experiment would be asking, can a needle (or needles), inserted in the skin cause effects on other areas of the organism?
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Don't know if this has been posted or not, but:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/545019.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/545019.stm
It's only a single-blind test since, I presume, the practicioner knew whether or not they were applying a genuine or fake proceedure.
RationalVetMed
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2004
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- 1,467
Well big deal, so sticking needles in people causes changes in an mri scan of the brain. Hardly proof of acupuncture. Does anyone have a link to the study on which this article was based?
Yuri
I can't find it. But the search is interesting.
http://www.radiology.northwestern.edu/research/neuro/acupuncture.cfm
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15760121
Maybe this is why I thought acupuncture had been accepted as working for some stuff. I heard about this stuff years ago.
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/#work
Interesting.
http://www.radiology.northwestern.edu/research/neuro/acupuncture.cfm
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15760121
Maybe this is why I thought acupuncture had been accepted as working for some stuff. I heard about this stuff years ago.
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/#work
Interesting.
Last edited:
Are you saying acupuncture doesn't exist? I can prove it exists, I can't prove it works but I can prove it exists.
I realize I am being a prick.
I am a stickler for detail. 
I am a sharp guy. 
Ill needle you for the correct wording.
I want to pin down the truth. 
Just thought I would point that out to you. You see the sharp contrast..okay enough! Bad firecoins! Bad!
RationalVetMed
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2004
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Aaah, a pedant after my own heart - point taken (boom boom).Are you saying acupuncture doesn't exist? I can prove it exists, I can't prove it works but I can prove it exists.
I realize I am being a prick.
Yuri
ps. Who was Which Tyler?..
The leader of the pedants' revolt - geddit! (note the correct position of the apostrophe, ahem).