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A definition of free will

Case 1a: Let's presume the sandwich isn't actually there;

You're claiming that it would be impossible for a person looking at the MRI machine to know which choice I'm going to make before it is made.

The set S from which the subset C is selected contains possible choices. If there is no sandwich there, then the choice of having the sandwich is not a member of set S.

No, I'm not claiming that. Choices can probably be predicted by scanning the brains of people, but not fully predicted. It's the same for all processes in nature; some can be predicted with great accuracy, such as the motion of the planets, and others like the weather can be predicted but not always accurately, and some processes like the radioactive decay of a particle can only be predicted based on half-life and things like that.
 
I hope fundamental hardcore Christians will not be upset by my interpretation of what Jesus Christ said. I think some of them/you may even agree with me here.

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." -- Matthew 6:25-34

Choice means worry. Because choice means uncertainty and therefore there is worry. If there was no uncertainty, there would be no confusion about what choices to make and therefore no worry.

This means that Jesus is here talking about choiceless awareness. The expression "seek first His kingdom and righteousness" means to enter the process of the universe (dropping the false belief of a separate self). And the phrase "tomorrow will worry about itself" means that tomorrow only exists as ideas in the present moment and that those ideas can worry about themselves and that there is no need for somebody to worry about those ideas.
 
"Grow my hair out" doesn't mean to make my hair grow; it means to let it grow long.

So now that I clarified this for you, what about the question? Do you think you can point to the action in the moment when I made the choice to grow my hair out?

You can choose A) to let your hair grow or B) to have your hair cut. You do have a choice about that you know.
 
The set S from which the subset C is selected contains possible choices.
"Possible" is still ambiguous. As it turns out, the possibilities we select from are in our heads.
If there is no sandwich there, then the choice of having the sandwich is not a member of set S.
So then, would you say I chose not to have the sandwich in case 2? If not, why not?
 
You do have a choice about that you know.
That's not the question. For the third time, the question is what you are referring to by the action in the moment with respect to a decision to let my hair grow out.

Given that I choose "(A) to let my hair grow out this winter", then what is the action in the moment?
 
The trick with computational irreducibility is that the single future path does NOT exist. Only by actually performing our choices is the path into the future determined.

Some may argue that the single path into the future does exist in theory, if reality is a deterministic process (where even randomness is deterministic according to theorem 1). I claim that the future consists of countless of possible paths and it's only when the 'computation' of reality is made in the moment that one of those paths becomes realized. The future is unknown in the strict sense, which means that no single path into the future exists.

What are the actual conceptual differences between computational irreducibility and Chaos Theory?

Choice is an abstract concept, and even in a non-deterministic (ie, partially random) universe, it does not exist when the universe is considered from a purely physical perspective.

It very much is an abstract concept, which, alone, relegates this to a purely conceptual level. As for 'does not exist, even in a non-deterministic universe,' I disagree. 'Does not necessarily exist' would be more correct, I think. There are several more conditions that would need to be the case before a reasonable argument could even be made that choice exists under said conditions, and almost certainly nothing that could, from our perspective, give evidence for what is 'the ultimate truth of the matter.'

As I pointed out, to our perspective, there's no way that we could tell the difference between "actual Free Will" and "the illusion of Free Will." To do so would require abilities and knowledge that we just don't have and are very much unlikely to have.

You don't seem to have understood what I meant, maybe I put it badly.

If by badly, you mean that you left it a bit too open to interpretation with your wording, yes.

The best way to put may be to view the mind from an abstract black-box perspective. Since it's practically impossible for us to know exactly what's going on inside a mind, we're forced to treat it as a black-box in normal circumstances anyway. You can interact with the person, but the specifics of the internal processes are unknown.

Yes, interacting with other people and things can affect the mind, cause the states of the processes in the mind to change in some manner. But the processes themselves aren't being controlled or tampered with (which would normally require opening up the "black box" and directly altering the mind/brain), and so free-will is maintained.

As could be seen from the edit that you're quoting, we're using two different concepts and calling those concepts Free Will. I'm using whether "actual choice" exists in the first place, as opposed to the illusion of it, as a guide. You appear to be using, in short, "no coercion is present, therefore, Free Will." While I see benefits from your usage of it, as noted previously, we're dealing with different concepts.

As for the matter of choice, the black-box point of view also works.

The output of the black-box (mind) represents a choice. Sure, if you looked inside the black-box and figured out exactly how it works, there would only be one possible output at any given time.

But if you don't know what's going on inside a mind, if it's to all intents and purposes a black-box, then there are a vast number of outputs/actions possible, depending on the exact nature/state of the internal processes at any given time.

The concept of "choice" represents exactly which possible output/action is produced out of all possible outputs/actions that could have been produced depending on the possible specific internal states and processes at the time.

I hope this makes sense. I'm rambling on a bit, it's getting late and I haven't had much sleep lately, so this post may not be completely coherent.

Basically, what you seem to be saying is that you are a determinist, but, like me, you recognize that there's no way to use determinism effectively without sufficient information, therefore, we must deal with reality as if we had Free Will (ETA: My definition), regardless of whether it is the case or not. Given this, but not necessarily dependent on it, you have adopted a version of "Free Will" that is somewhat more practical and useful for dealing with more direct situations, rather than abstract concepts.
 
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That's not the question. For the third time, the question is what you are referring to by the action in the moment with respect to a decision to let my hair grow out.

Given that I choose "(A) to let my hair grow out this winter", then what is the action in the moment?

At some moment in time you choose A, and then that choice remains active until you decide to change it. You most likely don't think consciously about that choice but it still exists in your subconscious. When the choice was made then there was the action in the moment which made the outcome concrete.
 
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What are the actual conceptual differences between computational irreducibility and Chaos Theory?

I think chaos theory can be thought of as a particular case of computational irreducibility. Take the computation of large prime numbers for example. There is no formula that can be used to put in a number n and get the nth prime number. Large prime numbers have to be calculated via an iterative algorithm. That's not chaos theory but it is computational irreducibility.
 
"Possible" is still ambiguous. As it turns out, the possibilities we select from are in our heads.

So then, would you say I chose not to have the sandwich in case 2? If not, why not?

By possible I mean actually possible. If a choice is not possible, then it's not a part of set S, even if the person wrongly believes that it is.

The answer to your second question is your own free will.
 
At some moment in time you choose A, and then that choice remains active until you decide to change it. You most likely don't think consciously about that choice but it still exists in your subconscious.
What do you mean by "exists in your subconscious" and "active"? Are you suggesting that there's a part of my brain activities devoted towards continuing the act?
When the choice was made then there was the action in the moment which made outcome concrete.
And again you're being ambiguous. When is the choice made? At the start of winter when I say, "I think I'll grow my hair long"? Or at the end, when it's long? Or is this a duration thing, in which case the word "moment" is misleading? (Is the "moment" you are referring to simply winter?)
 
The answer to your second question is your own free will.
I'm confused. Presumably you're answering my question about whether or not there was a choice in Case 2, and if not, why not, by saying:
your own free will​
I do not understand.
 
Just because someone knows what's about to happen, doesn't mean that it already has happened.

We are not talking about SOMEONE, I was talking of a all-knowing god.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
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I'm confused. Presumably you're answering my question about whether or not there was a choice in Case 2, and if not, why not, by saying:
your own free will​
I do not understand.

Oh, my mistake. You mean the sandwich is there but you don't know it's there. Ok, then the choice of having the sandwich is not a member of set S. Only possible choices are in set S. And if someone isn't aware of a particular choice, then it means that that choice is not possible.
 
What do you mean by "exists in your subconscious" and "active"? Are you suggesting that there's a part of my brain activities devoted towards continuing the act?
And again you're being ambiguous. When is the choice made? At the start of winter when I say, "I think I'll grow my hair long"? Or at the end, when it's long? Or is this a duration thing, in which case the word "moment" is misleading? (Is the "moment" you are referring to simply winter?)

Yes, the subconscious is holding the choice. There may be a fuzzy situation where you think "I wonder if I should let my hair grow long" and then you forget about it and your hair continues to grow without you having made a definite choice. That's a kind of implicit choice. Also involving the subconscious perhaps.
 
Yes, the subconscious is holding the choice.
We're going to have a long conversation at this rate! :)

"Holding" is entirely different than "activity". The reason to ask this is because the general term "subconscious" has to my knowledge no agreed upon definition. If it's simply part of my brain state--something where if I start thinking about haircuts I'll pull it up--then "memory" would be a much better term than "subconscious".
 
We're going to have a long conversation at this rate! :)

"Holding" is entirely different than "activity". The reason to ask this is because the general term "subconscious" has to my knowledge no agreed upon definition. If it's simply part of my brain state--something where if I start thinking about haircuts I'll pull it up--then "memory" would be a much better term than "subconscious".

But even a memory is a concrete result of a choice made at a certain point in time.
 
But even a memory is a concrete result of a choice made at a certain point in time.
Are you implying that choices are made at certain points in time? And if memory is a result of that, you're implying that the choice is made at the beginning of the duration?

I want to both see if you agree, and make this explicit.
 
Are you implying that choices are made at certain points in time? And if memory is a result of that, you're implying that the choice is made at the beginning of the duration?

I want to both see if you agree, and make this explicit.

A choice is a result of a process that has a duration and a moment in time when the choice becomes actual. The starting point of the choice-making process can be more difficult to pin down since it may depend on things going back all the way to the Big Bang and perhaps even prior to that. So what can be determined is the point in time when the choice was made.

As an example a man is playing roulette. His bet/choice is made (at the latest) when the croupier says "no more bets".
 
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A choice is a result of a process that has a duration and a moment in time when the choice becomes actual. The starting point of the choice-making process can be more difficult to pin down since it may depend on things going back all the way to the Big Bang and perhaps even prior to that. So what can be determined is the point in time when the choice was made.
You are being inconsistent. By your definition at this point in time, I did not make a choice when I decided to grow my hair out this winter, because the choice did not become actual yet. During the entire winter, the choice did not become actual. Only at the end of winter did it become actual. If the choice was made at the end of the winter, then it would be impossible for me to remember the choice that I made at the beginning of winter.

I want to know which one of these two things you're talking about. You cannot have them both.
As an example a man is playing roulette. His bet/choice is made when the croupier says "no more bets".
What makes that choice his choice?
 
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Anders - You are putting lipstick on a pig - trying to dress up silliness in math and science terms in an attempt to disguise its vacuity and to make it palatable to educated people.

The problem is that, being educated and skeptical people, we often don't fall for that.

It is insulting, however, that the attempt is so feeble.
 

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