911 Facts Consolidated

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Dog Town said:
First sentence, or the question?
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The question. Sad thing is that I came here looking for a kind of technical discussion, and all we get is Clayton, who drifts from one debunked point to another, usually starting with a teenage-esqe "what about (insert favourite theory)???"
 
Clayton Moore said:
Body fragments but neither hide nor hair of any black boxes.
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This sure looks like it came from a plane:
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This is a plane engine;
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Truthers appear to specialize in evidence denial that reveals them to look lazy, foolish and ignorant. :rolleyes:
 
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BombDr said:
The question. Sad thing is that I came here looking for a kind of technical discussion, and all we get is Clayton, who drifts from one debunked point to another, usually starting with a teenage-esqe "what about (insert favourite theory)???"
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Clayton doesn't know how to divulge into a technical discussion; It's beyond his common sense.
 
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MIKILLINI said:
This sure looks like it came from a plane:
[qimg]http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4958617722814888&id=4da0d69b14eea346983661e876fac7d2[/qimg]

This is a plane engine;
[qimg]http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4693820132819112&id=a5e43c1b0f401eb1fd0003adde5c124b[/qimg]

Truthers appear to specialize in evidence denial that reveals them to look lazy, foolish and ignorant. :rolleyes:
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Not to quibble but isn't CM talking about black boxes? Not that I agree with him that it's in any way suspicious if they weren't found. It would hardly be surprising nor the first time, never mind suspicious of anything sinister.
 
Mudcat said:
Not to quibble but isn't CM talking about black boxes? Not that I agree with him that it's in any way suspicious if they weren't found. It would hardly be surprising nor the first time, never mind suspicious of anything sinister.
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1 black box not found? Okay it's possible.

2 black boxes not found? Maybe.

3 black boxes not found? Huh?

4 black boxes not found? Nope.

Don't black boxes have transmitters that would have been transmitting so that they can be located? Isn't that what they do?
 
Clayton Moore said:
1 black box not found? Okay it's possible.

2 black boxes not found? Maybe.

3 black boxes not found? Huh?

4 black boxes not found? Nope.

Don't black boxes have transmitters that would have been transmitting so that they can be located? Isn't that what they do?
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Why don't you check your facts first?
 
Bell said:
Why don't you check your facts first?
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I assumed you meant from the four crash sites, but I just realized you probably meant the two cockpit voice recorders and the two flight data recorders from AA11 and UA175. My bad :o

Still no mystery though...
 
Clayton Moore said:
Don't black boxes have transmitters that would have been transmitting so that they can be located? Isn't that what they do?
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No.

Wikipedia said:
In aviation, a "black box" (they are actually bright orange, to facilitate their being found after a crash) is an audio or data recording device in an airplane or helicopter. The cockpit voice recorder records the conversation of the pilots and the flight data recorder logs information about controls and sensors, so that in the event of an accident investigators can use the recordings to assist in the investigation. Although these devices were originally called black boxes for a different reason, they are also an example of a black box according to the meaning above, in that it is of no concern how the recording is actually made.
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It is also possible they were destroyed beyond any possible recovery, which wouldn't be a first either.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why an unrecovered black box is in any way suspicious.
 
Mudcat said:
No.



It is also possible they were destroyed beyond any possible recovery, which wouldn't be a first either.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why an unrecovered black box is in any way suspicious.
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Or even why the recovery of the boxes would be that important. It's not like the cause of the crashes is a mystery.
 
Reactor drone said:
Or even why the recovery of the boxes would be that important. It's not like the cause of the crashes is a mystery.
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Twoofers perhaps hope to hear the surprised voices of the Captains on the voice recorder: "Whoops, what's that, the plane doesn't react to my inputs - urrr we are remote controlled! Yikes! Look where this remote control is getting us! Oh nooooooo..."
 
Mudcat said:
Not to quibble but isn't CM talking about black boxes? Not that I agree with him that it's in any way suspicious if they weren't found. It would hardly be surprising nor the first time, never mind suspicious of anything sinister.
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Sure is, but he apparently thinks it's the only recognizable thing on a plane that will survive an impact.
 
CM seems to be under the misapprehension that black boxes are indestructible and will continue working under all possble environmental stresses.

This is not so.

FDRs are constructed with the forces of a plane crash in mind. This is the kind of forces that the AA77 and UA93 recorders were subjected to, and these were all found, and three of the four were readable.

In addition to these design loads, the recorders of AA11 and UA175 experienced the massive forces of building collapses, and quite possibly days, weeks or months of underground heat and fires.

Flight recorders are painted bright yellow or orange and have a beacon, both to aid recovery. However, neither of these features can survive prolonged exposure to heat[1] above certain temperatures: The color will get charred, the electronics cease to work. As all four recorders were certainly burried at unknown depths into the debris piles, they likely endured unknown temperatures and unknown pressure for times that exceed specifications by large factors.




[1] Current specifications for FDR survivability, EUROCAE document ED-112 which applies to US and European airliners since 2003, are listed on page 14 of this presentation:
http://capacg.com/2009 GA-FDM Conference/03Schmutz_L3_ERAU_GAFDM_Conference_8_18_09.pdf
ED-112 superceded ED-55, which was current in 2001, but for which I haven't found a good link yet. We may suppose though that requirements have not been eased. So here is what an FDR must be able to endure:
  • Impact: 3400 Gs, 6.5 ms
  • Pin Penetration: 500 lb., 10 ft. 1/4 in. Pin
  • Static Crush: 5000 lb., 5 min., All Axes
  • Low Temp Fire: 260° C, 10 Hrs.
  • High Temp Fire: 1,100° C, 1 Hr.
The WTC black boxes are likely to have exceeded both their Low Temp Fire duration and the Pin Penetration specifications during the plane crashes and/or building collapses (perhaps some engineer here can explain what this latter requirement means and work out some estimate of what can be expected during the building collaps?). Also, a static crush of 5000 lb (2.25 metric tons) doesn't appear outlandish in the pile, if the recorder found itself between a rock and a hard place under the debris.
 
MIKILLINI said:
Sure is, but he apparently thinks it's the only recognizable thing on a plane that will survive an impact.
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And considering that there were likely tens of thousands of computers in the buildings with similar electronic parts all burned to a crisp along side the "black boxes" it is really no surprise that they were never found. :rolleyes:
 
Animal said:
And considering that there were likely tens of thousands of computers in the buildings with similar electronic parts all burned to a crisp along side the "black boxes" it is really no surprise that they were never found. :rolleyes:
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Yeah, sounds suspicious to me alright... As if. CM needs to come up with something more relevant.
 
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