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Merged 9/11 No Plane/Energy Weapon discussion thread

Are you personally in possession of any of the so-called plane passenger's remains?

You seem to have believed the airplane story from the beginning all the way up until today. Is this true?
Within reason. He didn't ignore reality. You do:

I think it was a small group of people who controlled exotic weapons using computers. I don't think it was a large group of people who hijacked airplanes.
Because you require a large group of people who planted evidence (plane parts, passengers DNA analyses) and participated in the cover-up.

Steel is amazingly strong. Crashing a dozen semi-truck tankers full of hydrocarbon fuel into the side of the WTC would have resulted in a dented building and a bright orange, short lived fire. At the end of a few hours of fire fighting, you'd have an almost entirely intact steel cage with burn damage to the interior. If you filled up the entire WTC to the brim with hydrocarbon fuel, and set it alight, you'd end up with a steel cage. It might be warped and droopy in places where it got extra hot and stayed extra hot for a few hours, but it wouldn't be gray and dusty, and it wouldn't have exploded all over lower Manhattan.
Definitely not reality-based, but a delusion. It takes just a bonfire to weaken steel to a point where it can be bent as easily as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drsgs6-3Qlg
 
All I saw in that picture shown just now is various shades of grey.....

steel melts by the way, and as the fire retardent covering on parts of the building had not been maintained that's how the fires managed to melt the supports holding it up gravity did the rest
 
steel melts by the way, and as the fire retardent covering on parts of the building had not been maintained that's how the fires managed to melt the supports holding it up gravity did the rest
Ahem, no, that's not nearly exact. Steel doesn't need to get anywhere near its melting point in order to lose its capacity to bear the loads. See the video above.

Steel probably didn't melt during the fires, it was just weakened.

And while it's true that there were problems with the fireproofing coming out:

pgimeno-fireproofing.jpg


it's also true that that didn't play any significant role in the collapses. The fireproofing is fragile, and the plane impacts dislodged it in the impact areas.
 
What else is new...

You know that person that captures exactly what you're thinking? That's myriad.

yep.

Bravo Myriad

yes

[qimg]http://www.seedsfromamsterdam.com/images/normal_joint.gif[/qimg]

Why do you think they call it dope?


Sorry, but I don't "do" stoners...

Ol' CP thinks, sadly, of the pipe hidden in his closet, somewhat dusty from disuse.

On behalf of many of the stoners -- past, reformed, current, or part-time -- let me say that I'm appalled by the resistance to facts and logic displayed by the posts of WTC Dust. Appalled.

There are many truthers who are not stoners.

There are many high-functioning stoners who are not delusional.

There are many stoners who are not truthers.

Heck, there are many stoners who know better than to drive after they've smoked.

Now, I wouldn't want the pilot of my plane to be a stoner. But I probably wouldn't want the jazz soloist* on my track to be a pilot, either.

Highly trained expertise plus disinhibition & relaxation can have its uses.

Marijuana, for example, can assist the pigmy bushman to stand on one foot motionless in the water, acting somewhat like a crane, waiting to spear a fish.

There are situations where lessened frontal-lobe activity and relaxation are appropriate.

Generally, concocting theories about 9/11 is not one of those situations.

*Many of the greatest jazz musicians don't do drugs at all. Keith Jarrett, for example. But then there's Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, etc.
 
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Are there any 9/11 truthers who don't have mental deficits or drug problems, in your opinion?

yep.



yes








Ol' CP thinks, sadly, of the pipe hidden in his closet, somewhat dusty from disuse.

On behalf of many of the stoners -- past, reformed, current, or part-time -- let me say that I'm appalled by the resistance to facts and logic displayed by the posts of WTC Dust. Appalled.

There are many truthers who are not stoners.

There are many high-functioning stoners who are not delusional.

There are many stoners who are not truthers.

Heck, there are many stoners who know better than to drive after they've smoked.

Now, I wouldn't want the pilot of my plane to be a stoner. But I probably wouldn't want the jazz soloist* on my track to be a pilot, either.

Highly trained expertise plus disinhibition & relaxation can have its uses.

Marijuana, for example, can assist the pigmy bushman to stand on one foot motionless in the water, acting somewhat like a crane, waiting to spear a fish.

There are situations where lessened frontal-lobe activity and relaxation are appropriate.

Generally, concocting theories about 9/11 is not one of those situations.

*Many of the greatest jazz musicians don't do drugs at all. Keith Jarrett, for example. But then there's Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, etc.
 
Are there any 9/11 truthers who don't have mental deficits or drug problems, in your opinion?

I think some, like 1234TruthSeeker (Ace Baker) are quite bright, but operate in some kind of strange bubble. I think that his bubble consists of living in an artificial environment and being something of a child prodigy, and having a (separate) powerful reason to resent the world. Quite lucid in some ways. Quite resistent to reality in others.

I think the desire to be a bright contrarian can be the main factor for some.

Think: Lynn Margulis. Kary Mullis. Peter Duesberg. John Nash.

Really, really wrong about a lot of things, right about some things.
 
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Here's a few images of the multi-colored gray dust I'm talking about.

Dark gray (top) = smoke from the fires.
Light gray (lower) = crushed wall board and concrete particles, along with other stuff.

You do remember the huge fires, right?
 
Oh I know. The "smoke" (haw haw) removal machine was really a fume neutralizer. The dismantling was really work to remove evidence of the non self-quenching effects of DEW. Ah HA! Find the receipt for the fume neutralizer and you'll have your perps.

How am I doing?

You didn't really answer my question as to why there was "smoke" accumulation in a years-dead building. Also, you seem to forget that the smoke removal machine actually broke down and failed to remove the "smoke".

If the smoke machine really were a "fume neutralizer", then I'm guessing it wouldn't have broken down, causing fumes to accumulate in the Deutsche Bank. Smoke machines are made to remove smoke, after all. Smoke is almost entirely made of partially burnt carbon-based material. Smoke removal equipment generally does a good job at removing smoke.

But there was iron in the dust. Officially sanctioned studies of the WTC dust found iron and iron oxide particles in the dust. The fume neutralizer you mention must be capable of removing this type of material. According to the article, smoke removal equipment couldn't do the job.

Iron is magnetic. I think the iron particles trashed the working innards of the smoke removal equipment, causing it to fail. We know it failed. The deconstruction of the Deutsche Bank was halted due to its failure.

Nobody in the article mentioned a reason why smoke was accumulating so heavily in the Deutsche Bank. There's no reason that a dead building should be producing so much smoke.

The article did mention the 2007 Deutsche Bank fire. Anyone remember that? No reason was ever given for the fire. Criminal charges were filed against the men who failed to properly install and maintain the fire fighting equipment, but that has nothing to do with why the fire began in the first place. I say the 2007 fire, the 2009 deconstruction shut-down, and my occasional whiffs of the WTC stench as late as 2009 were all because of the same reason.

The reaction wasn't self quenching. When you think about Ground Zero, a research team from Edinburgh reported that the site continued to fume until the remains of the WTC were removed from the basement. I personally report heavy fumes for 100+ days.
 
I've already opened up the topic of the electrical nature of tornadoes and hurricanes. Certainly, gravity and kerosene don't flip cars or selectively rust them out. Dr. Wood is merely showing that the effects seen at and around GZ are caused by exotic weaponry, Macgyver.

In contrast, NIST and/or 9/11 Commission did not explain what had happened, at all.

Perhaps your quarrel is more with the lack of explanation from any source OTHER than Dr. Wood, rather than with her explanation, demonstration, proof and painstaking forensic work.

Yes, hurricanes and tornadoes do have electrical natures, what do you think the lightning is all about?

I am a member of the U.K based TORnado and storm Research Organisation.

http://www.torro.org.uk/site/index.php

Tornadoes are atleast one area I do have experience of.

Tornadoes are the most powerful weather-related force on earth. Possibly the highest surface wind speeds ever recorded was taken by doppler reading on May 3 1999. 318mph during an F5 (highest old Fujita scale rating) tornado in the Oklahoma City area.

That is incredible power, but your little group of DEWphiles have yet to show any evidence such forces of nature have anything to do with 9\11 or energy weapons. Showing a bunch of pictures and wailing "hey look this is weird!" doesn't even come close.
 
You didn't really answer my question as to why there was "smoke" accumulation in a years-dead building. Also, you seem to forget that the smoke removal machine actually broke down and failed to remove the "smoke".

If the smoke machine really were a "fume neutralizer", then I'm guessing it wouldn't have broken down, causing fumes to accumulate in the Deutsche Bank. Smoke machines are made to remove smoke, after all. Smoke is almost entirely made of partially burnt carbon-based material. Smoke removal equipment generally does a good job at removing smoke.

But there was iron in the dust. Officially sanctioned studies of the WTC dust found iron and iron oxide particles in the dust. The fume neutralizer you mention must be capable of removing this type of material. According to the article, smoke removal equipment couldn't do the job.

Iron is magnetic. I think the iron particles trashed the working innards of the smoke removal equipment, causing it to fail. We know it failed. The deconstruction of the Deutsche Bank was halted due to its failure.

Nobody in the article mentioned a reason why smoke was accumulating so heavily in the Deutsche Bank. There's no reason that a dead building should be producing so much smoke.

The article did mention the 2007 Deutsche Bank fire. Anyone remember that? No reason was ever given for the fire. Criminal charges were filed against the men who failed to properly install and maintain the fire fighting equipment, but that has nothing to do with why the fire began in the first place. I say the 2007 fire, the 2009 deconstruction shut-down, and my occasional whiffs of the WTC stench as late as 2009 were all because of the same reason.

The reaction wasn't self quenching. When you think about Ground Zero, a research team from Edinburgh reported that the site continued to fume until the remains of the WTC were removed from the basement. I personally report heavy fumes for 100+ days.

I think I have an idea what fumes you keep smelling and why it's affecting your reading comprehension and basic understanding of things.
 
Iron is magnetic. I think the iron particles trashed the working innards of the smoke removal equipment, causing it to fail. We know it failed. The deconstruction of the Deutsche Bank was halted due to its failure.

Nobody in the article mentioned a reason why smoke was accumulating so heavily in the Deutsche Bank. There's no reason that a dead building should be producing so much smoke.

The article did mention the 2007 Deutsche Bank fire. Anyone remember that? No reason was ever given for the fire. Criminal charges were filed against the men who failed to properly install and maintain the fire fighting equipment, but that has nothing to do with why the fire began in the first place. I say the 2007 fire, the 2009 deconstruction shut-down, and my occasional whiffs of the WTC stench as late as 2009 were all because of the same reason.

This post reveals you are deliberately ignoring facts: You are trolling. :rolleyes:
 
Ventilation to keep the worker comfortable (and healthy). Torches and cutting equipment can make the air quite unbearable. The building was being dismantled.

Why didn't you just call the construction company or the FDNY. They could have told you. No mystery here.

While you're at it, ask them why NYC requires they spray all sites with water and wash truck tires before driving on the city streets.

I watched the entire deconstruction of the Deutsche Bank. At the time that the article appeared, the building was almost nothing but a steel framework covered by a mesh-like material. The sides of the building were completely open to the air. Ventilation shouldn't have been a problem, but let's say you're right. The deconstruction equipment itself was causing the smoke to accumulate. OK. Do you know this to be true, or are you guessing? Have you seen any reports that specify the reason smoke was accumulating?

The article I posted doesn't give a reason. I could perhaps accept that the deconstruction itself was causing the fumes, except that the boys down there were so damn professional. I'd see them every day, and it seemed to me that they knew how to use their own equipment safely and without generating excess "smoke".

Another thing is the 2007 fire, which was never explained. Also, I smelled the fumes in the first days after 9/11, and will never forget them. I almost thought I was making things up. How could I possibly still be smelling the WTC stench sometimes all these years later? It was only after the article appeared in the Metro that I realized that the Deutsche Bank was still fuming.

I talked to my local street cleaner guy about the dust, and he said he often would find dust in the corners of the sidewalk next to the Deutsche Bank that he just couldn't clean. He said he would have to bring his supervisor over to point it out to him so he didn't get in trouble for leaving a mess.

This corresponds to my own efforts at removing the material from the nook where I found it (<200 feet away from Ground Zero). That stuff was almost impossible to dislodge! A-B foam is somewhat similar to the dust deposits. Very hard to dislodge, but rather crumbly and crushable.
 
Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility.

"Yesterday, smoke escaped from the former Deutsche Bank building on Liberty Street—the Daily News reports, "It turned out the smoke was from a battery-powered forklift that overheated about 4 a.m. Firefighters simply unplugged it." And while firefighters were on the scene, they found that a switch for an air-filtration system (you know, to keep toxic air—the building is full of debris from the 9/11 attacks— from escaping the building) wasn't working, so work was halted. The Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, which is overseeing the demolition of the building, believes the building will be decontaminated by July and ready for demolition in January. In 2007, a seven-alarm fire, started by a worker's cigarette, killed two firefighters and, in 2006, it was hoped the building would be gone by...2007."


Yeah, right. 8 years later and the building was full of debris from the 9/11 attacks? You could see right inside the building through the mesh. There was nothing there except the steel framework. And if there was debris from the attacks, you'd think they'd have been able to remove it in 8 years.

I just don't believe the explanation.

Toxic air, yes. I could smell it. I believe there was toxic air. Remember the story of the Deutsche Bank is that a piece of building material fell on it. How this produced toxic air so many years later will forever remain a mystery if you adhere to the silly hijack conspiracy theory.

That's the thing. The long lasting nature of the damage is what rules out the hijack conspiracy as the destructive mechanism. Airplanes don't carry that much fuel with them, and if they crash into buildings, they don't cause fumes to be produced 8+ years later in nearby buildings.

The story is stupid.
 
"Yesterday, smoke escaped from the former Deutsche Bank building on Liberty Street—the Daily News reports, "It turned out the smoke was from a battery-powered forklift that overheated about 4 a.m. Firefighters simply unplugged it." And while firefighters were on the scene, they found that a switch for an air-filtration system (you know, to keep toxic air—the building is full of debris from the 9/11 attacks— from escaping the building) wasn't working, so work was halted. The Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, which is overseeing the demolition of the building, believes the building will be decontaminated by July and ready for demolition in January. In 2007, a seven-alarm fire, started by a worker's cigarette, killed two firefighters and, in 2006, it was hoped the building would be gone by...2007."


Yeah, right. 8 years later and the building was full of debris from the 9/11 attacks? You could see right inside the building through the mesh. There was nothing there except the steel framework. And if there was debris from the attacks, you'd think they'd have been able to remove it in 8 years.

I just don't believe the explanation.

Toxic air, yes. I could smell it. I believe there was toxic air. Remember the story of the Deutsche Bank is that a piece of building material fell on it. How this produced toxic air so many years later will forever remain a mystery if you adhere to the silly hijack conspiracy theory.

That's the thing. The long lasting nature of the damage is what rules out the hijack conspiracy as the destructive mechanism. Airplanes don't carry that much fuel with them, and if they crash into buildings, they don't cause fumes to be produced 8+ years later in nearby buildings.

The story is stupid.

Except you fail to account for the real planes crashing into the buildings.
 
"You didn't really answer my question as to why there was "smoke" accumulation in a years-dead building. Also, you seem to forget that the smoke removal machine actually broke down and failed to remove the "smoke".

If the smoke machine really were a "fume neutralizer", then I'm guessing it wouldn't have broken down, causing fumes to accumulate in the Deutsche Bank. Smoke machines are made to remove smoke, after all. Smoke is almost entirely made of partially burnt carbon-based material. Smoke removal equipment generally does a good job at removing smoke.

But there was iron in the dust. Officially sanctioned studies of the WTC dust found iron and iron oxide particles in the dust. The fume neutralizer you mention must be capable of removing this type of material. According to the article, smoke removal equipment couldn't do the job.

Iron is magnetic. I think the iron particles trashed the working innards of the smoke removal equipment, causing it to fail. We know it failed. The deconstruction of the Deutsche Bank was halted due to its failure.

Nobody in the article mentioned a reason why smoke was accumulating so heavily in the Deutsche Bank. There's no reason that a dead building should be producing so much smoke.

The article did mention the 2007 Deutsche Bank fire. Anyone remember that? No reason was ever given for the fire. Criminal charges were filed against the men who failed to properly install and maintain the fire fighting equipment, but that has nothing to do with why the fire began in the first place. I say the 2007 fire, the 2009 deconstruction shut-down, and my occasional whiffs of the WTC stench as late as 2009 were all because of the same reason.

The reaction wasn't self quenching. When you think about Ground Zero, a research team from Edinburgh reported that the site continued to fume until the remains of the WTC were removed from the basement. I personally report heavy fumes for 100+ days.
"

It does indeed seem odd that there would be airborne smoke in the Deutsche Bank so long after the event.

MM
 
Frankly, I think this thread is for retards only, and that includes anyone who would reply to the OP. But as it turns out, I know something about this fire. It was HUGE. And anyone with a computer, Internet, and access to Google could find this out. It was sooooo HUGE that it has it's own Wiki category,
August 2007 fire
But because I know checking Google is too hard for some of the people here, I will post the entry below.
On August 18, 2007 at approximately 3:40pm, a seven-alarm fire broke out on the 17th floor of the building, caused by workers smoking, carelessly and in violation of the building's safety rules. By this time, the skyscraper, once 41 stories, had been reduced to 26, with crews removing a floor a week. At the time of the fire, crews were removing asbestos. The fire spread in both directions, affecting a total of 10 floors. The floors were filled with a maze of protective polyethylene sheets which were designed to prevent the spread of asbestos, but which also trapped smoke making fighting the fire extremely difficult. Firefighting was additionally hampered as the building did not have a functioning standpipe, forcing firefighters to raise hoses up from the street to combat the flames. The building had not been inspected since March, when it should have been inspected every 15 days. The fire burned into the night before being extinguished. 45 Engine Companies, 30 Ladder Companies, 3 Rescue Companies, 19 Battalion Chief Units, 4 Division Chief's Units, and numerous other special and support units responded from the New York City Fire Department to combat the fire. The fire killed two FDNY firefighters, Joseph Graffagnino, 33, of Brooklyn, and Robert Beddia, 53, of Staten Island, who succumbed on the 14th floor to smoke inhalation and carbon monoxide poisoning, and injured 115 firefighters, 46 seriously enough to require medical leave. Plans to deconstruct the building continued as quickly as possible.[10][11] In 2008, the Manhattan District Attorney indicted three construction supervisors and the demolition subcontractor, the John Galt Corporation.[12]
and be clever, follow the Wiki link for seven-alarm fire. On second thought, I can't trust you to do that.



So we need a super secret alien government that turns buildings to dust with their super secret orbiting Death Star. Get a brain. Get a life. And you wonder why you can't keep a job. That goes for the enablers, as well.

NYFD News
Defendants Knew About Broken Standpipe in Deutsche Bank Fire
Manslaughter Charges Expected in Deutsche Bank Fire
Two Firefighters Killed at Ground Zero Fire
 
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Yes, hurricanes and tornadoes do have electrical natures, what do you think the lightning is all about?

I am a member of the U.K based TORnado and storm Research Organisation.

http://www.torro.org.uk/site/index.php

Tornadoes are atleast one area I do have experience of.

Tornadoes are the most powerful weather-related force on earth. Possibly the highest surface wind speeds ever recorded was taken by doppler reading on May 3 1999. 318mph during an F5 (highest old Fujita scale rating) tornado in the Oklahoma City area.

That is incredible power, but your little group of DEWphiles have yet to show any evidence such forces of nature have anything to do with 9\11 or energy weapons. Showing a bunch of pictures and wailing "hey look this is weird!" doesn't even come close.

This post reminded me of one of my small criticisms of Judy Wood. I'm not her biggest fan. That role is played by Morgan Reynolds and possibly Jerry Leaphart. But I am a fan. Her forensic investigation of the WTC attacks is, without a doubt, the best work on the subject.

What she does is separate out the various features of 9/11 and examines those features. For instance, the billiard ball analogy. She examined the gravity collapse model with this analogy. She subtracted some features of the gravity collapse model, and included others. She didn't include any notion of floors slamming into other floors. Rather, she hypothesized a billiard ball supported by nothing, floating motionless in air until a separate billiard ball that was stationed one floor above it had fallen to its own level. Again, she did not include any interaction between the billiard balls. In her model, the billiard balls did not impart any force on each other, rather served as a signal for the timing of fall of the billiard balls in succession. This was genius. By controlling for force in the model, she was able to investigate the timing issue in a clear-headed and simple way.

If one billiard ball can't fall until the next billiard ball reaches it, then the timing of the demise of the WTC buildings didn't match a gravity collapse model.

You might want to add in the force to the model, but it's already busted by the timing. Adding force into the model would only slow things down, not speed them up, and the confusion about this is because most of you people don't really "get" Newton's 3rd Law. You think of forces as going in one direction, but it isn't the case. Forces exist in pairs. They have opposite direction and equal magnitude.

If you want to add force into the model, you have to add ALL of the forces into the model. You can't just talk about the force of the floors of the WTC slamming downward without also mentioning that the lower floors would have exerted exactly and precisely that same amount of force in the upward direction. This upward force would slow the descent of the upper floors, had they begun crashing downwards, which they didn't, but whatever. The gravity collapse model says they did, and we're talking about that model.

If you want to add force into the model, you can't forget the horizontal forces. Building materials moved horizontally during the destruction. What does the gravity collapse model say about this? Not a darn thing, because gravity only works in one direction, down. Gravity doesn't cause things to shoot out horizontally. Gravity wouldn't have caused the steel beams to fly across the street and damage the Deutsche Bank. Items flew at least 300 feet horizontally during the destruction of the WTC, and the dust cloud rolled out for blocks, all the way to the tip of the island in Battery Park and up to Chambers Street. That's a lot of horizontal motion that isn't accounted for.

When you look at early pictures of the damage, you'll notice that relatively little of the WTC buildings ended up inside the footprints of the building. It can be said that the vast majority of the building material moved radially outward from the center of the building footprints. The pile above the footprints were not much more than two stories, if that. I saw this with my own eyes less than 72 hours after the attacks. There were some taller pieces leaning over, but not above the footprint. Horizontal motion is not adequately explained with the gravity collapse model.

Getting to my criticism of Judy Wood (notice how I started a thread about disrespecting Judy Wood? I doubt you'd have been as interested in replying to a thread called "praising Judy Wood" haha), she didn't flesh out the Hurricane Erin story as much as I wanted her to. She's still a working scientist. She might soon come out with a tighter, fuller explanation of the connection, if any, between Erin and 9/11, but the story remains incomplete so far.

She doesn't insist that Erin was the power source, unlike the claims of many of her detractors, but she does provide a good argument about the timing, position, and size of the storm. I just want more than is there, and I can't make a decision about Hurricane Erin yet.
 
Can anyone suggest why they needed smoke removal equipment in a years-long dead building, the Deutsche Bank?

Can anyone suggest why the smoke removal equipment failed?

P.S. I've got my own answers, I just want to see you all try and explain this. Remember, I lived next door to the Deutsche Bank and would smell whiffs of the WTC stench occasionally when I was walking the dogs.

There were large amounts of toxic dust associated with the collapse of the World Trade Center, asbestos, dioxin, lead, silica, quartz, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, chromium and manganese had been found in the building.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/12/n...r=1&ex=1125374400&en=6204c29a218b8a8b&ei=5070
 

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