9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Nonpareil]

So did Krege. Krege's investigation with ground penetrating radar proved otherwise. There is nothing in the ground of Treblinka that remotely points towards 870,000 people buried there.

Source information on the search? Was this experiment ever verified to be scientific by a third party?

Rather relaxed pictures from Auschwitz.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/09/09/Auschwitz_orchestra.html

You'll excuse me if I don't trust that source out of hand. Can you show other sites - preferably neutral ones - that support this contention?

Matches exactly the experience of my (Dutch) father who was also held in a camp not to far from Auschwitz. The Germans where not sadists or bastards but normal people. Singing together occured regular. The basic rule was: don't cause us trouble then we will not cause you trouble. Everybody was longing for the end of the war.

Can you perhaps name this camp?

 

[blutoski]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/646...-aide-could-finally-end-Holocaust-claims.html

Fritz Darges died at the weekend aged 96 with instructions for his manuscript about his time spent at the side of the Führer to be published once he was gone.

Experts say his account of his time as Hitler's direct link to the SS could discount the claims of revisionists who have tried to claim the German leader knew nothing of the extermination programme.

The notion that 6 millions people were deliberately killed as a government program behind the Fuehrers back is of course silly.

Mainstream historians believe it inconceivable that Hitler did not issue verbal directives about the mass killings in Darges' presence. Other courtiers, such as armaments minister Albert Speer and propaganda chief Josef Goebbels, had their diaries published post war with no reference to hearing Hitler ordering the "Final Solution".

(or to the Final Solution at all for that matter).

Shermer points out that there is no written record of Hitler ordering an attack on Poland in 1939, either. A very plausible explanation is that they understood the value of plausible deniability obtained from verbal orders after the fiasco of [T4].

Mind you, these were diaries, not manuscripts to be published after the war. So why would Speer and Goebbels have no reference in their diaries to the holocaust? I mean they were top-Nazi's they must have known!

I am shocked, amazed, as to why they did not do that. Can somebody come up with an explanation?

That's a good question, although it evades the fact that other high-level Nazis *did* write about the Final Solution (I'm thinking particularly of Himmler).

My impression from what I have read of these diaries is that these specific people wrote a lot about their minutae, and not much about larger topics. More concerned about their personal health problems than that of prisoners.

 

[blutoski]

Can you perhaps name this camp?

Possibly Teschen. If anybody holds happy memories of Teschen, they're displaying the ultimate Stockholm Syndrome.

That's a very suspicious anecdote, given uncontroversial history of that camp, and the treatment of many Western Allied POWs.

It's important to note that Dutch prisoners would have been protected by Geneva Convention; whereas, internal political prisoners of the Reich or conquered Soviet territories were not. I think we can expect that Western Allied POWs had a very different experience than those in political concentration/liquidation/labour camps.

Nevertheless, countless Western Allied prisoners were mistreated to say the least. My uncle Herve, for example, was captured and imprisoned in 1945 and unfortunately, was forced into an event called [The Long March].

When I was a kid, I remember being embarassed when he would break down with a pretty clearcut case of PTSD. Specifically, I remember him sobbing after a friend brought over a German Shephard puppy. Herve's best friend during the march was ripped apart by and fed to the guards' dogs because the poor fellow had been wounded when captured, and couldn't keep up with the column.

Now, in my older age, I recognize that I shouldn't have been embarassed. Herve was a genuine hero.

 

[dudalb]

Compare it to the Jewish class in the US of today ruling over the descendants of the lower classes of Europe ('huddled masses').

MY ancestors on my mother's side came over in one of the "Coffin Ships" from Ireland during the Famine. I guess they qualify as huddled masses.
MY ancestors might have been from "the lower classes" of Europe but I don't think they were mindless bigots pushing total garbage to try to justify their hatred.
Please go jump in the lake.

 

[TSR]

The other historians are in jail. Nobody likes to go to jail, so everybody knows he has to shut up, otherwise...

.
And yet you cannot name a *single* historian in jail for Holocaust denial, or even Holocaust questioning
.

 

[TSR]

Krege's investigation with ground penetrating radar proved otherwise. There is nothing in the ground of Treblinka that remotely points towards 870,000 people buried there.

.
Oh, goody! You've actually seen the report from Krege, then? Where can I get a copy?

I assume that the report details Krege's qualifications for the operation and interpretation of GPR?

And specifically *where* this investigation took place?
.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who, by all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was a transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet territories. These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in Belarus (Byelorussia), Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk), were written by Jews who had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards had been sent by mail and some had arrived through the underground. Many mentioned that the senders were working hard, but confirmed that they (and often their children) were being fed.

Do you have the text and date from one of these "postcards"? If they are German issue then they will say from which camp in the Ukraine or Belarus they were issued. More interesting is that you claim these cards came from people sent to Treblinka, so you must have been able to match the name of the person who sent it to a jewish person's manifest for one of the Treblinka transports. Is this what you did? What was the name? Can you state the Reichsbahn document you obtained this name from?

You made the part about Treblinka up didn't you?

 

[Trojan]

Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who, by all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was a transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet territories. These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in Belarus (Byelorussia), Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk), were written by Jews who had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards had been sent by mail and some had arrived through the underground. Many mentioned that the senders were working hard, but confirmed that they (and often their children) were being fed.

This is ********, produce one on these letters or postcards from Treblinka

 

[Trojan]

So did Krege. Krege's investigation with ground penetrating radar proved otherwise. There is nothing in the ground of Treblinka that remotely points towards 870,000 people buried there.

You've been called on this lie earlier in this thread - why do you lie?

Krege has no published report, so he sure as hell did not prove a damn thing.

 

[Trojan]

No. Just 1 picture from inside the deathcamp (Krema V/Auschwitz):

http://www.holocaust-uddannelse.dk/images/billeder/auschwitz-birkenau02.jpg

And here is the debunking of that (obviously doctored) photo:
http://www.vho.org/D/gzz/WalendyA-krema3.jpg

There is no other photo known from inside from one of the 6 'death camps' that shows any homicidal activity.

There are many more photos, that you are ignorant of these photos shows how ignorant you are of the history you deny.

Strictly speaking, the one photo you think is forged shows corpse disposal -- it does not, in and of itself, show or prove homicidal gas chambers. It does not even show a gas chamber in the photo

 

[Matthew Ellard]

So did Krege. Krege's investigation with ground penetrating radar proved otherwise. There is nothing in the ground of Treblinka that remotely points towards 870,000 people buried there.

There is no published Krege report. We tried to debunk it as Holocaust Deniers claims "no disturbances were found in the soil by Krege". This was odd considering that in November 1945 Justice Lukaskiewicz was present when explosives were used to dig 6 metre deep holes over a 20,000 metre area to which they found ash, bones and body parts. I guess this was because Krege was an electronics engineer with no forensic background and no one thought his visit was worth publishing as he wasn't qualified.

 

[Simon39759]

It was France and Britain that declared war on Germany after Germany invaded into lands that was taken from them in Versailles. Britain was preparing to invade Norway in order to cut of vital supplies of iron to Germany.

What about Austria? What about Czechoslovakia? What about your own country, the Netherlands, and what about Belgium and the Luxembourg? What about the invasion of Denmark? Of Norway? What about the invasion of Yougoslavia and Greece?

This peace-loving Hitler of yours sure declare a lot of war and invaded a bunch of neutral countries!

 

[sonofgloin]

My point was that the web is almost useless and is not the only alternative to eyewitnesses.

Mathew my point is that we have an opportunity of about ten years left to speak to people who were there and of an age to understand what was happening. As I mentioned the whole holocaust event was not of an interest to me until the revelations from family members, and that only happened once. Given that I have a wider interest in human foibles and the beastiality we choose to visit on others ( as I mentioned my country of birth was and could be tomorrow mired in the ethnic based hatred and murder exampled by the European holocaust ) I went looking for first hand testimony. I sent a form letter to various organizations and groups, religious, cultural, and etnic detailing the information I sought, my interest in the event, my purpose for the inquirie, and a personal history of my past and heritage. I had an overwhelming response and met many people who were there. I have an opinion based on all the conduits for information you mentioned plus my appraisal of the validity of the conversations I had with these old folks at the end of their lives. Those conversations were the concrete that set my views. I see you guys are debating the credibility of the picture of the burning pits....that is an example of how the validity of anything can be corrupted unless you satisfy yourself with what is truth from a source that you believe is credible, a personal judgement because your information came from interpersonal contact not a medium. As I said Mathew you have the story right and seem to have an avid interest in the times, seek out and interview the few that are left to personally validate your view.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

As I said Mathew you have the story right and seem to have an avid interest in the times, seek out and interview the few that are left to personally validate your view.

I agree with your comment than any improvement on evidence is a good thing. If the validity of eye witnesses can be verified this is also a good thing. The Holocaust Deniers disputed eye witnesses from the Demjanjuk trial in 1987 trial. They are now using those same eye witnesses at the next trial because their evidence ( identifying Demjanjuk at the wrong camp) will be used to create "reasonable doubt". I think we both agree that good evidence requires the "harmony" in different evidence from many different sources.

 

[Kurse]

So did Krege. Krege's investigation with ground penetrating radar proved otherwise. There is nothing in the ground of Treblinka that remotely points towards 870,000 people buried there.

I was being a smart ass =P. But either way, I think the real way to do it is to dig. Like alot.

The Germans where not sadists or bastards but normal people. Singing together occured regular. The basic rule was: don't cause us trouble then we will not cause you trouble. Everybody was longing for the end of the war.

This we know. I bet some German refused to o what as ordered, and thus they were possibly punished. Don't get me wrong, 911. I love the German people, and I definitely do not hate them. But what the Gestapo and Hitler did was a disgrace. Many think that. Hell, even top officiers hated it. But when it comes to a dictating madman, sometimes people don't have choice. And I'm sure everyone wanted an end to the war. All it brought was death and suffering.

But anyways, I still believe the Holocaust happened. Whether or not you do will not change my opinion (not saying I'm ignoring you though). But at least try to give our side the respect of actually looking at the evidence, not just casting it aside.

 

[sonofgloin]

Do you have the text and date from one of these "postcards"? If they are German issue then they will say from which camp in the Ukraine or Belarus they were issued. More interesting is that you claim these cards came from people sent to Treblinka, so you must have been able to match the name of the person who sent it to a jewish person's manifest for one of the Treblinka transports. Is this what you did? What was the name? Can you state the Reichsbahn document you obtained this name from?

You made the part about Treblinka up didn't you?

Mathew in a doco I viewed some time ago a foreign relative of a deportee received one of these post cards revealing that things were tough but fair (my summation) but at the end the writer said that they were all expecting a visit from uncle Malach very shortly. The relative then went on to say that at that point they knew their relatives were being murdered as the name Malach is part of the name of the Hebrew angel of death, and by this coded message that easily passed the scrutiny of the Germans the message of mass murder was passed.

In regard to 9/11 your expectation of him must take into account his countries posture to National Socialism. The Dutch NAZI party was founded in 1931, a spit after the German organization set up, and in 1936 the zealot Tonningen took over, more NAZI than NAZI was the consensus from the Dutch. Why I mention this is that the enviroment and the slant on history that 9/11 exhibits is one of enviroment as well as judgement, He is more than likely psychologically honest in his defense of what he understands to be right. BUT HE IS OF COURSE WRONG.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

What about Austria? What about Czechoslovakia? What about your own country, the Netherlands, and what about Belgium and the Luxembourg? What about the invasion of Denmark? Of Norway? What about the invasion of Yougoslavia and Greece?

This peace-loving Hitler of yours sure declare a lot of war and invaded a bunch of neutral countries!

I enjoy the fact that Hitler also attacked his own axis allies as well. When Romania and Italy sued for peace he replaced their governments and sent in troops. Hitler, a complete military buffoon, send his heavy Tiger II workgroup to drive around Budapest to impress the residents, while the Russian were advancing unchallenged across the Bug River.

Hitler attacks his enemies, The Allies
Hitler attacks his friends, The Axis partners
Hitler attacked neutral countries,
Hitler attacks his own German people, the politicians, the lefties, the romanies, the jews, the christian JW's, and sent child soldiers to their deaths.

Well at least Hitler wasn't "fussy" who he attacked.

 

[sonofgloin]

This we know. I bet some German refused to o what as ordered, and thus they were possibly punished. Don't get me wrong, 911. I love the German people, and I definitely do not hate them. But what the Gestapo and Hitler did was a disgrace. Many think that. Hell, even top officiers hated it. But when it comes to a dictating madman, sometimes people don't have choice. And I'm sure everyone wanted an end to the war. All it brought was death and suffering.

When a non citzen denegrates another culture or society for the type of beastiality the Germans and their collaborators exhibited I immediately attempt to recall such acts by that society in the recent past, just for a balance in regard to tagging a persona to a nation of individuals. The British invented the modern concentration camp during their war with the Boers. The elderly the sick, the women the children, and of course the men were collected, transported, incarcerated, mistreated and murdered by the British less than fifty years years before the Nazi's had their go. We are all pathetic slaves to authority and collectiveism and the acts of our fore fathers are waiting for a time and circumstance appropriate for evoking the same responses from us.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Mathew in a doco I viewed some time ago a foreign relative of a deportee received one of these post cards revealing that things were tough but fair (my summation) but at the end the writer said that they were all expecting a visit from uncle Malach very shortly. The relative then went on to say that at that point they knew their relatives were being murdered as the name Malach is part of the name of the Hebrew angel of death, and by this coded message that easily passed the scrutiny of the Germans the message of mass murder was passed.

Fair enough but the inter camp cards published did not allow new words. You simply got to cross out the words. "I am sick / well" so the german censors could work through the volume. I think you are talking about smuggled letters which the german guard would not see. However, we can talk about this later if we come across the postcard on the net.

In regard to 9/11 your expectation of him must take into account his countries posture to National Socialism. The Dutch NAZI party was founded in 1931, a spit after the German organization set up, and in 1936 the zealot Tonningen took over, more NAZI than NAZI was the consensus from the Dutch. Why I mention this is that the enviroment and the slant on history that 9/11 exhibits is one of enviroment as well as judgement, He is more than likely psychologically honest in his defense of what he understands to be right. BUT HE IS OF COURSE WRONG.

I'm not sure why living in a country that once had a Nazi party modifies his particular views. He was born after the Nazi party was ended, as is every other German, Austrian, Romanian, and so on, and their views are like mine, not his. Anyway. It doesn't matter. It is his words that matter, not his race, religion or country of birth. (I respect the Dutch as I live in "New Holland" (Australia) and above us is the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) so they certainly made their mark on the planet as discoverers)

 

[sonofgloin]

I'm not sure why living in a country that once had a Nazi party modifies his particular views. He was born after the Nazi party was ended, as is every other German, Austrian, Romanian, and so on, and their views are like mine, not his. Anyway. It doesn't matter. It is his words that matter, not his race, religion or country of birth. (I respect the Dutch as I live in "New Holland" (Australia) and above us is the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) so they certainly made their mark on the planet as discoverers)

I had a conversation with a Serbian technocrat living in my country during the Balkan bash and in the end we jointly decided that if the grand parents and parents stopped recounting their real or perceived historical biases against the Croats then if the conflict erupted there would in all likely hood be no genocide, just the horrid war. That is what I meant by enviroment. 9/11 is a vocal product of his enviroment. If you gave me the option of going into a provincial Dutch pub and bagging openely and loudly the Jews or the NAZI's, I would take the Jew option, for bagging the NAZI's would attract violence. This is not slighting the Dutch at all, we are products of our enviroment, consider the non humane Hitler youth of the era, child monsters, but they were not born to it, it was impressed on them.....9/11 is an example of biased input....I hope.