9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Amazer]

Heh. So no matter what evidence is presented, you'll find a way to dream up some explanation why it isn't so. Perhaps it's time YOU showed some evidence that the historians are wrong, now ?



Amusing. Do you really think so highly of yourself as to think that you'll turn history on its head in this very thread and defeat decades of history just by hand-waving evidence ?

Only in his own mind (and, unfortunately, those who already think like him) is he able to rewrite history.

 

[dudalb]

Don't forget for second his Holocaust Denial is driven by pure bigotry:hatred of the Jews.(although our little investigator also seems to have "issues" with anybody who does not fit his definition of "White European). To expect somebody with that underlying emotion to be open to change his or her mind because of evidence is pretty nieve and unrealistic.

The main reason for debating him is not to change his mind..probably an impossible task...but to shoot down his ideas for the benefit of any lurkers and third parties who might look at this thread.

 

[Nick Terry]

Are you sure? Regarding Auschwitz todayeverybody refers to the 'gaschambers', not to the crematoria. There is nothing homocidal about crematoria; crematoria are used to 'treat' already dead people. It is the gaschambers were the real evil resides. So why would survivors refer to crematoria rather than gaschambers? I have never heard them doing that. You are mistaken.

You've "never heard them doing that" because you evidently have not read very many testimonies or memoirs. Auschwitz inmates very often spoke of 'the crematoria' knowing full well what was inside these buildings, and used the term as a shorthand and circumlocution for the gas chambers. Which is precisely what Wiesel did in his novelised memoir/autobiographical novel.

That's a contradictio in terminus and you know it.

No, it's not.

An autobiography is a detailed truthful account of one's life, a novel is something that was fabricated. You can't have it both ways.

Will you next be telling us that Erich Maria Remarque never served in the trenches during the First World War?

The dividing line between memoir/autobiography and fiction was trashed several decades before Wiesel wrote Night, during and after WWI. The phenomenon of fictionalised autobiography, or autobiographical fiction, is almost quintessential to the 20th Century. It recurs through the major wars of the century, certainly for WWI, WWII and especially for Vietnam. Some of the best accounts of Vietnam are novels written by veterans, such as The 13th Valley or Sand Against The Wind.

And I hope that our resident holocaust scholar of 8 years is aware of the fact that this pathetic liar never was in either Auschwitz or Buchenwald.

So claim some axe-grinders who have taken aim at Wiesel because of his prominence, but I haven't seen any evidence to disprove that Wiesel was in those camps.

Nick does not know it. May I invite him to a little journey to the review section of Night at Amazon?

Let's see how the American public reacts to this fictionalized 'autobiography' (first 3 items):

- Elie Wiesel's account of Nazi Germany left me stunned. Once I finished, I just sat there thinking about the book and realizing that it wasn't a work of fiction, but a true story.

- Ellie Wiesel makes the scenes so real that any reader can feel like they were living in the horrible and terrifying events.

- Wiesel's autobiographical account of 'life' in the concentration camps remains one of the ten most influential books I have ever read.

Overwelming number of positive responses. Everybody clearly thinks that this novel represents the truth, there are only a handful of sceptics. And the liar never was there at all. He sucked the story out of his sore thumb.

As Pure_Argent said already, so? Ordinary readers are neither literary critics nor historians, and not best placed to judge how to classify Night. Indeed, classifying it is widely recognised as a problem.

Scholars and reviewers have been unsure which literary genre Night belongs to. In All Rivers Run to the Sea, Wiesel explicitly says it is not a novel, calling it instead his "deposition,"[47] writing that he "object angrily" if someone implies it is a work of fiction.[2] He writes that he wants his readers to know that "the truth I present is unvarnished; I cannot do otherwise.[48]
Nevertheless, reviewers have had difficulty approaching Night as a historical work or eyewitness account. Gary Weissman writes that Night has been called a "novel/autobiography," an "autobiographical novel," a "non-fictional novel," a "semi-fictional memoir," a "fictional-autobiographical novel," a "fictionalized autobiographical memoir," and a "memoir-novel."[45] He argues that Night defies all categories. Irving Abrahamson writes that Night is "an unprecedented book, the beginning of something new in literature, if not in religion."[49]

Fact is, Wiesel is hardly alone in working in multiple genres, or at the borders of several genres, of writing. Solzhenitsyn and Primo Levi also wrote novels as well as autobiographies, histories and philosophical commentaries. I don't think anyone doubts Solzhenitsyn was in the Gulag, even though he has relentlessly exaggerated the death toll under Stalin and repeated a number of legends about the Soviet camp system.

Curiously, Holocaust deniers never seem to care much about Tadeusz Borowski's short stories - explicitly written as fiction - about Auschwitz. But then Borowski was a Pole. Hmmm.....

 

[Rogue1stclass]

Kurt Vonnegut was an American POW held in an underground slaughterhouse used as detention facility during the Desdin bombing.

He wrote a book called Slaughterhouse Five about American POWs in an underground slaughterhouse during the bombing of Desdin. Also, there are aliens and time travel. The book is clearly fiction.

But that doesn't change the fact that Kurt Vonnegut really was an American POW held in an underground slaughterhouse during the Desdin bombing.

See the point?

 

[CHF]

demonstrate to me that 6 million people were gassed in WW2 under the Nazis.

Wow, I'm on page 1 and already you've failed.

No Holocaust Historian says 6 million Jews were gassed since the genocide didn't begin or end with gassing.

Mass killing started with the Einsatzgruppen in the USSR, expanded to the ghettos and forced labour, then to gassing, and then finally to death matches.

In all about 40% of victims were either shot, died of malnourishment/disease, or were worked to death.

The notion that 6 million were gassed is a popular misconception which Holocaust Deniers repeat in order to "debunk" the gas chamber claims and thus dismiss the whole genocide in one swipe.

So even if we grant your idiotic premise and pretend that not a single Jew was gassed, you're still left with almost 3 million dead. And what would that prove exactly? That the Holocaust wasn't that bad? That the Third Reich has received a bad rep?

 

[Simon39759]

Less a fail than a strawman, IMHO.
Discrediting a version of the Holocaust that everybody agrees never happen is much easier than actually arguing against the truth...

 

[Vermonter]

It's so strange. It's as if deniers think that if somehow not a single person was gassed, that would somehow justify the other several million deaths and make what the Nazis did "right". It's mind boggling. Is there no compassion for fellow human beings, regardless of ethnicity?

 

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/646...-aide-could-finally-end-Holocaust-claims.html

Fritz Darges died at the weekend aged 96 with instructions for his manuscript about his time spent at the side of the Führer to be published once he was gone.

Experts say his account of his time as Hitler's direct link to the SS could discount the claims of revisionists who have tried to claim the German leader knew nothing of the extermination programme.

The notion that 6 millions people were deliberately killed as a government program behind the Fuehrers back is of course silly.

Mainstream historians believe it inconceivable that Hitler did not issue verbal directives about the mass killings in Darges' presence. Other courtiers, such as armaments minister Albert Speer and propaganda chief Josef Goebbels, had their diaries published post war with no reference to hearing Hitler ordering the "Final Solution".

(or to the Final Solution at all for that matter).

Mind you, these were diaries, not manuscripts to be published after the war. So why would Speer and Goebbels have no reference in their diaries to the holocaust? I mean they were top-Nazi's they must have known!

I am shocked, amazed, as to why they did not do that. Can somebody come up with an explanation?

 

[Kurse]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/646...-aide-could-finally-end-Holocaust-claims.html

Fritz Darges died at the weekend aged 96 with instructions for his manuscript about his time spent at the side of the Führer to be published once he was gone.

Experts say his account of his time as Hitler's direct link to the SS could discount the claims of revisionists who have tried to claim the German leader knew nothing of the extermination programme.

The notion that 6 millions people were deliberately killed as a government program behind the Fuehrers back is of course silly.

Mainstream historians believe it inconceivable that Hitler did not issue verbal directives about the mass killings in Darges' presence. Other courtiers, such as armaments minister Albert Speer and propaganda chief Josef Goebbels, had their diaries published post war with no reference to hearing Hitler ordering the "Final Solution".

(or to the Final Solution at all for that matter).

Mind you, these were diaries, not manuscripts to be published after the war. So why would Speer and Goebbels have no reference in their diaries to the holocaust? I mean they were top-Nazi's they must have known!

I am shocked, amazed, as to why they did not do that. Can somebody come up with an explanation?

If you killed a hundred babies, would you want that published?
Another way to look at it, maybe they were too busy doing it to actually write about it.

Or, I could just do what you do with our evidence.
Their lack of evidence for the killings gives you lack of evidence too. Your claim is false.

 

[Uzzy]

Or perhaps they didn't think the Armaments Minister really needed to know about it?

 

[Trojan]

The notion that 6 millions people were deliberately killed as a government program behind the Fuehrers back is of course silly.

It is silly, Hitler knew all about it -- your denial is silly, but don't let that stop you.

Its also silly that you discount the memoirs and testimony of Hess and Eichmann, but hardly surprising.

 

[9/11-investigator]

If you killed a hundred babies, would you want that published?

We are talking about diaries here, not memoirs. A diary is written in the assumption that only the writer himself will read this. It's a vehicle for reflection, not for public consumption.

 

[Trojan]

We are talking about diaries here, not memoirs. A diary is written in the assumption that only the writer himself will read this. It's a vehicle for reflection, not for public consumption.

That would depend on the author, not on your wishs.

Gee, I wonder who wrote the passege below in their diary - strange how the diary does not contain any of your carefully selected buzz words, yet is rather damning,

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Anybody care to guess?

 

[9/11-investigator]

It is silly, Hitler knew all about it -- your denial is silly, but don't let that stop you.

Raul Hilberg would love to see some evidence that Hitler 'knew'. Of course you will not find evidence, because the holocaust did not happen as alledged.

Its also silly that you discount the memoirs and testimony of Hess and Eichmann, but hardly surprising.

Stop the presses. Trojan has managed to lay his hands on the memoirs of Hess!! That's world news! We all know Hess, the man who flew to Britain single-handedly with a peace-offer. So much for tomorrow ze wurld idiocy. In the end Hess was murdered when Gorbatchev wanted to release Hess as a gesture of good-will. But Hess carried too many secrets with him that the Brits could allow this man go as a free man and have conversations with people like Irving so they strangled him. 'Suicide'.

(Trojan probably means Hoess).

 

[Trojan]

Raul Hilberg would love to see some evidence that Hitler 'knew'. Of course you will not find evidence, because the holocaust did not happen as alledged.

April 27, 1942 (pp. 190-191)
I talked to the Fuehrer once more in detail about the Jewish question. His attitude is unrelenting. He wants, under all circumstances, to push the Jews out of Europe. That is right. The Jews have brought so much misery to our continent that the severest punishment meted out to them is still too mild

-wanna guess who?

Stop the presses. Trojan has managed to lay his hands on the memoirs of Hess!! That's world news! We all know Hess, the man who flew to Britain single-handedly with a peace-offer. So much for tomorrow ze wurld idiocy. In the end Hess was murdered when Gorbatchev wanted to release Hess as a gesture of good-will. But Hess carried too many secrets with him that the Brits could allow this man go as a free man and have conversations with people like Irving so they strangled him. 'Suicide'.

(Trojan probably means Hoess).

Spell check can be a bitch

 

[Trojan]

December 13, 1942 (p. 241)
The question of Jewish persecution in Europe is being given top news priority by the English and the Americans.... At bottom, however, I believe both the English and the Americans are happy that we are exterminating the Jewish riff-raff. But the Jews will go on and on and turn the heat on the British-American press. We won't even discuss this theme publicly

- more from Goebbels -- demonstrates the need for secrecy

Unless the investigator can demonstrate proof the published diaries are forgeries

 

[9/11-investigator]

Quote:
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Oh please, we discussed this in page 3.

 

[Trojan]

Oh please, we discussed this in page 3.

YOU claimed there was no reference to the final solution in his diary -- there sure as hell is, just by a different name

Just more of your bumpersticker arguments

 

[9/11-investigator]

April 27, 1942 (pp. 190-191)
I talked to the Fuehrer once more in detail about the Jewish question. His attitude is unrelenting. He wants, under all circumstances, to push the Jews out of Europe. That is right. The Jews have brought so much misery to our continent that the severest punishment meted out to them is still too mild

Again: He wants, under all circumstances, to push the Jews out of Europe.

And how do you bring that about: you round them up, put them in trains and ship them to the east, waiting for the Endsieg, so they could be permanently resettled somewhere in Russia. That was the idea. Unfortunately for the Germans the Russians fought harder back than the average African did when the British invaded their territory. Poor Germans. The British, French, Dutch and others had snatched all potential colonies away before Germany could unite and get their fair share. Russia was the only left-over for the Lebensraum desires of the Germans. Tough luck.

'Pushing out of Europe' is not equal to killing. It's a logistical operation, not a homocidal one.

 

[Trojan]

Again: He wants, under all circumstances, to push the Jews out of Europe.

And how do you bring that about: you round them up, put them in trains and ship them to the east,

Please name the resettlement camps they were shipped to and provide proof the camps existed

and while you are at it, since you accept the diary, explain this

Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.