9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[bethgsd]

I'm up in the bleachers too, chanting, "Go Matthew! Go Matthew!"

 

[Arkyrion]

Congratulations on a job superbly done, Matthew.

 

[Nonpareil]

Lets us read Himmler's quote from the 4th October 1943, recorded speech to the gruppenfuhrer ( SS group leaders) in Pozen. ( Available at the National Archives, Washington...they have the original wire recording!)

"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish People. This is something that is easily said "The Jewish people will be exterminated" says every party member. "It is very obvious, it is our program - elimination of the Jews" and they turn up , the brave 80 million Germans and each one has his decent Jew. It is obvious that the others are pigs but this particular one is a splendid Jew. Most of you know what it means when a 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or 1000 are lined up. To have endured this and remained a decent person....has made us tough. This is an honoor roll in history which has never been and never will be put in writing".

Matthew, I'd just like to forewarn you that 9/11-investigator will not respond to this particular part of your post. I showed it to him earlier, and he still hasn't commented on it. Which is kinda sad for him, because it shows how weak his argument is.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Matthew, I'd just like to forewarn you that 9/11-investigator will not respond to this particular part of your post. I showed it to him earlier, and he still hasn't commented on it. Which is kinda sad for him, because it shows how weak his argument is.

Well, in that case, he's certainly not going to like the Treblinka evidence when we move onto that subject. The reason I buy "Holocaust Denial" books is to see what information and documents the movement avoids and then study those "gaps". However Michael Shermer's book "Why people believe weird things" is better researched than my internet contributions.

( I imagine Durat the moderator saying "Damn, it's one of those pesky Skeptic Society members trying to flog Shermer's book on our forum... again! Bastards!)

 

[sonofgloin]

I have shown the original document where the Jew Beria orders the killing (some deny he is a Jew).

9/11, I mentioned as a qualification that I married into a European family of mixed nationalities, Russian, Latvian, and Ukrainian. I also mentioned that I was a coloured guy and that the oldies in this family who lived through the war discussed their experiences with me to a depth that they dare not tell their own children (one of which I married). As I said I judge these revelations to be credible and that conclusion comes about because of the age of the people at the time (most have passed now), the negative and self deprecating nature of the disclosures, and the fact that they waited almost 30 years to reveal anything to me. So on that basis I can tell you that they all loathed Beria, and lived in fear of his secret police and web of informants. They always refered to him as the "Jew Beria" it was common knowledge to the population of the time. Whether it is fact or not who can be certain. The only basis for plausability is that the region he was born in has a strong Jewish cultural history...see link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Abkhazia

I remember that Marx was a Jew. A rather grave error you make here. Every body knows he is Jewish.
Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine. His father, Heinrich Marx, a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire, who took part in agitations for a constitution in Prussia. His mother, born Henrietta Pressburg, was from Holland. Both parents were Jewish and were descended from a long line of rabbis

No I don't.

9/11 there is a point to be made here in regard to this Wiki quote. Before you utilized it I quoted it in a response to Mathew who was denying that Marx was Jewish. He did not respond to it because he is supressing reality to fit his arguments and that is transparent and unproductive. But he accuses you of exactly the same behaviour (supressing reality) as he exhibits. I will say though the Wiki bit you used is the same as mine except you left out the last line which states "he was baptized in the Evangelical Established Church. Karl was baptized when he was six years old"...... I would still consider him Jewish.
Tailoring quotes to fit the argument is as I said transparent and unproductive

Of course in the document there is not a hint that these cloths came from 'gassed people'. For the simple reason: there were no gassed people.

They were gassing and injecting poison into the mentally ill and deformed before they hooked into the Jews and Gypsies. They only stopped because the families of the murdered complained to the church...of course they gassed people.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/euthanasia.htm

You should doubt a bit more in your life and not assume everything all the time. That's your mistake, mr Know-All.

Mathew is not Mr Know it all, he didn't know that Marx was a Jew. We can all go the web and get differing opinions on the holocaust but my advice to all who are interested in this fascinating and macabre snapshot of human nature is to seek out the few people left who lived through it and those who were in Europe directly after it for their time left to testify is at it's end......and all we have then is the web.

P.S. 9/11 Sorry that I mentioned the tailoring quotes thing, as I read on I see you have been already stomped over it by a few. Just wanted you to know I was not jumping on a band wagon.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

9/11, I mentioned as a qualification that I married into a European family of mixed nationalities, Russian, Latvian, and Ukrainian. I also mentioned that I was a coloured guy and that the oldies in this family who lived through the war discussed their experiences with me to a depth that they dare not tell their own children (one of which I married). As I said I judge these revelations to be credible and that conclusion comes about because of the age of the people at the time The only basis for plausability is that the region he was born in has a strong Jewish cultural history...see link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Abkhazia

Beria's ethinic background was Mingrelian from Georgia. (Same accent as Stalin) He may or may not have been jewish. He certainly helped jewish people and indeed supplied arms to early Israel, but he also helped other non jewish people. What is your point? Do you think people of Jewish background are evil in some way?

9/11 there is a point to be made here in regard to this Wiki quote. Before you utilized it I quoted it in a response to Mathew who was denying that Marx was Jewish.

No I said Marx was "German" and later, I pointed out he was baptised at 6 as a christian. Jewish people don't get baptised as christians. Nor do 6 year olds "convert" by themselves. It was his parents who chose to have him baptised. Read some history please...

He did not respond to it because he is supressing reality to fit his arguments and that is transparent and unproductive.

I did not respond to what? My claim Marx was German? He was German. What was your question?

you left out the last line which states "he was baptized in the Evangelical Established Church. Karl was baptized when he was six years old"...... Tailoring quotes to fit the argument is as I said transparent and unproductive

Yes we all agree.

I would still consider him Jewish.

That may be a bit hard when he is in church praying to Jesus but if that's how your brain works ...go for it!

Mathew is not Mr Know it all, he didn't know that Marx was a Jew.

I said he was "German". 9/11 Investigator said I remember that Marx was a Jew." Two members had to show 9/11 that Marx was baptised as a Christian and therefore not a jew. Try reading the posts again. As you say... Tailoring quotes to fit the argument is as I said transparent and unproductive while you are actually doing it.

seek out the few people left who lived through it and those who were in Europe directly after it for their time left to testify is at it's end......and all we have then is the web.

So we will only "have the web" when people who have lived through this period die? So you don't believe in autobiographies, written confessions, documents, divisional histories, forensic evidence, historians alive at the time, artifacts, econometric evidence, signitures etc. Funny, because John Demjanjuk's legal team have to worry about these things are they are considered "court evidence". The web is not considered "court evidence" nor do historians do not use the web.

 

[sonofgloin]

Beria's ethinic background was Mingrelian from Georgia. (Same accent as Stalin) He may or may not have been jewish. He certainly helped jewish people and indeed supplied arms to early Israel, but he also helped other non jewish people. What is your point? Do you think people of Jewish background are evil in some way?

Mathew lets not run supposition into our discussion unless clearly identified as such. The pemise that the expectation of the detractors of the Jews when identifying whether a Jew is a Jew being based on the religious values that person may hold is false for the majority of anti semites. I example this by the overwhelming number of Jewish converts during the Weimar Republic. These folks wanted to be accepted, they changed their religions and their names, but they were only twenty short years later identified as Jews, rounded up and slaughtered. Accept what I said and qualified for what it is, and given we are talking about Marx, for all intents and purposes in this discussion he is seen as a Jew...9/11 exampled that, and he was correct.

I did not respond to what? My claim Marx was German? He was German. What was your question?

Just to refresh your memory, Marx was a German citizen of Jewish ancestory and the point is that anti semites perceive him as Jewish because it bolsters their claims of a Jewish conspiracy at the base of socialism.

That may be a bit hard when he is in church praying to Jesus but if that's how your brain works ...go for it!

I do not believe that I have exhibited an allegiance to either pro or anti semitic views. I know what happened and I know who the perpitrators were, but in regard to our posts I pointed out to you that Marx could and is considered Jewish by most. If he was around in Hittlers time he would have been dragged out of the church and burned in a synagogue...Karl Marx,not Jewish at all, your dreaming, but all the other stuff you supplied to 9/11 was pertinent and factual, but you must discount facts from your opposition if they are facts.

So we will only "have the web" when people who have lived through this period die? So you don't believe in autobiographies, written confessions, documents, divisional histories, forensic evidence, historians alive at the time, artifacts, econometric evidence, signitures etc. Funny, because John Demjanjuk's legal team have to worry about these things are they are considered "court evidence". The web is not considered "court evidence" nor do historians do not use the web.

Mathew if you do not understand the concept of face to face testimony in comparison to the endless manipulation and editng techniques available to the thusly talented then I can not explain the individual worths of the two forms of testimony to you any further.

 

[Ignorantbystander]

Sorry, I fail to see the relevancy of wether Karl Marx was jewish.

 

[sonofgloin]

Sorry, I fail to see the relevancy of wether Karl Marx was jewish.

I did not raise it, just answered a querie about it and some took it as a negative assertion.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

If he was around in Hittlers time he would have been dragged out of the church and burned in a synagogue...

[nitpick]
Actually, he would have been gassed in a chamber.
[/nitpick]

 

[Nonpareil]

Sorry, I fail to see the relevancy of wether Karl Marx was jewish.

Don't worry. It's not your fault. You can't see the significance because there isn't any. It's one of 9/11-investigator's favorite tactics: when pressed, derail the thread and run away.

 

[Simon39759]

Anti-semite such as 9/11 are making the case of that 'them Jews invented communist and communism was evil and hence, them Jews had it coming'.

Pretty much.
I have to agree with Sonofgloin that Jews was not considered a religion as much as a 'race' so, regardless of his actual religious background, Marx would still have been perceived as a Jew and hence, part of the 'vast Jewish conspiracy'.
Actually, the fact that his family did convert to Christianity may very well have been perceived as a lie and a decoy and a way to advance the conspiracy. Anti-Semites are paranoids.


In fact, I know that many right-wing pro-Nazi propaganda of the time DID present communism as part of a Jewish conspiracy. That actually was a common theme to discredit the Jews.

 

[Belz...]

Anti-semite such as 9/11 are making the case of that 'them Jews invented communist and communism was evil and hence, them Jews had it coming'.

At first glance I read "that 'them Jews invented communism and evil."

Though that's not far from the actual claim.

 

[Simon39759]

Well; maybe you could make the point that Judaism really introduced the dichotomy between the personification of good (God) and evil (the other guy).

Before that, we had Gods being ambivalent (Poseïdon feeding fishermen or drowning them during storms...) of "little evil", creatures committing evil act but not being responsible for all evil.

So, by this tenet, you could argue that Jews indeed invent the 'concept of ultimate evil', just as they invented that of 'ultimate good'.

I'd argue that it is a bit simplistic, but you'd have some grounding making that point (and I know that it is not what you initially meant).

 

[Simon39759]

[nitpick]
Actually, he would have been gassed in a chamber.
[/nitpick]

Or shot or starved to death.
[nitpicking the nitpick] The majority of the victims of the Holocaust did not die in the gas chambers[/nitpicking the nitpick]


But then... [nitpicking my own nitpicking]Marx would have been over 120 at the time and would have certainly been around the first one routed to the gas chamber on arrival.[/nitpicking the nitpick]

[nitpicking my own nitpick -part 2]Anyway, at this age, he would probably not have survived the hardous deportation process, many people died in the wagons on the way to the camps... [/nitpicking the nitpick]

[nitpicking my own nitpick -part 3] Don't be silly, Simon, it is Karl Marx we are talking about, he certainly was famous enough to warrant his own treatment (probably a sham trial and an execution squad) rather than the anonymity of deportation.[/nitpicking my own nitpick]

 

[9/11-investigator]

So, let me recap...

The Holocaust is possible. The Nazis had the motives and the means.

Motive maybe, means to kill: yes. But dispossing of millions of bodies unnoticed is a different question altogether.

We have photographs that clearly show that it happened.

No we don't. And again let this sink in: I mean pictures from the alleged mass killings in the millions scale in these so-called death camps. I am not talking about pictures of atrocities that exist in abundance or the horrible pictures of Belsen.

So, show me the pictures from the death camps.

The overwhelming majority of historians, who have reviewed the evidence, agree that it happened.

The other historians are in jail. Nobody likes to go to jail, so everybody knows he has to shut up, otherwise...

 

[Belz...]

Motive maybe, means to kill: yes. But dispossing of millions of bodies unnoticed is a different question altogether.

So one of your problems with the Holocaust is logistics ?

So, show me the pictures from the death camps.

Haven't we done this already ? We know where they are / were, have ample testimony from both the victims and perpetrators, photographic and video evidence, etc.

The other historians are in jail. Nobody likes to go to jail, so everybody knows he has to shut up, otherwise...

Not on the American continent, you don't. It's not my fault if you have stupid laws. For the record I disagree with laws that put you in jail for your opinion, no matter how outlandish.

 

[dudalb]

I will give 9/11 Investigator credit for proving one thing beyond a shadow of a doubt:
That he is Big Time Anti Semite,who has a diseased hatred of the Jews.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Peter the Great was German, Didn't you know that? That's why the old Russian capital has a German name "St Petersburg".

You should not assume things about my knowledge. Peter spent a year in the Netherlands to acquire knowledge about how to build an advanced society at home. He is well-known here. Russia for centuries had a Germanic ruling class and a Slav underclass. Compare it to the Jewish class in the US of today ruling over the descendants of the lower classes of Europe ('huddled masses').

You edited out this bit from your wikipedia quote.....was baptized in the Evangelical Established Church. Karl was baptized when he was six years old.

It's extremely silly to derive one's identity from sparkling some water over a kid's face at the age of six. Decisive is his ancestry from a family of Rabbi's no less. He is as Jewish as you can get. It's again the eternal discussion about the Jews being a religion or an ethnicity. The latter trumps the first. In Spain of the Inquisition you had lot's of Marano's, 'converted' Jews. Nevertheless, they secretly adhered to their identity. I am Dutch by blood. I could decide to become a Jew or a muslim, nevertheless I would remain Dutch for the rest of my life, in character, appearance, customs, heritage.

Were they travelling "in the nude" considering their clothes were all taken as cited in that document I showed you?

I would assume that keep their KZ garments.

Can you show me the Todt Organisation labour request for Teblinka jews to the SS? This would state the labour camps they were requested for. There are no camps after Teblinka are there? So why were they on the train?

Are you suggesting that Treblinka was the only 'death camp'?

Lets us read Himmler's quote from the 4th October 1943, recorded speech to the gruppenfuhrer ( SS group leaders) in Pozen. ( Available at the National Archives, Washington...they have the original wire recording!)

"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish People. This is something that is easily said "The Jewish people will be exterminated" says every party member. "It is very obvious, it is our program - elimination of the Jews" and they turn up , the brave 80 million Germans and each one has his decent Jew. It is obvious that the others are pigs but this particular one is a splendid Jew. Most of you know what it means when a 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or 1000 are lined up. To have endured this and remained a decent person....has made us tough. This is an honoor roll in history which has never been and never will be put in writing".

Oh please, not again. We discussed this earlier in the thread. Look it up using google.

Please read Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" Most german factories were using foreign and slave labour so they could send their last untrained factory workers and children to fight highly experienced Soviet soldiers. This is because Hitler was so stupid he started a war without introducing a war economy. It is Hitler's fault German children fought Russian soldiers and died in large numbers.

Quit a statement. Maybe Hitler was forced into this war. Maybe he did not want a World War, but just Danzig. He certainly did not want war with England and France.

What has uniforms in Auschwitz camps got to do with Treblinka where there were no uniforms or barracks? Do you understand the different types of camps?

I have some doubts about your level of understanding:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/labour camps/arclabourcamps.html
This is about Treblinka:

The area containing the prisoners was divided into three sections: One section contained a kitchen, stoves and sewing shops. The Jewish prisoners who were artisans lived there along with Jewish tailors, barbers, stove workers and drivers. They were dressed in civilian clothes , each wore their own clothes. In the next section the Jews who were used for forced labour were lived. They were dressed in striped uniform and they wore wooden shoes on their feet. I do not know if there were skilled labourers among these Jews, who had a speciality. They were sent to work in the sand pit where they hauled sand, they were also taken to work in the forest removing tree stumps. The sand from the sand pit was sent off in the direction of the Malkinia station. In the third section of the camp were kept the Polish prisoners. As a rule the Poles were used for auxiliary work in the camp – they were dressed in civilian clothes, like the Jewish skilled workers. I do not know if their food was on the same level as that of the other prisoners.

No they were wearing them on the train when they arrived, a large portion after being rounded up in Warsaw ( Read the Stroop report to Hitler). They were then then told to disrobe. The clothes were then dumped in the fake train station at Tereblinka for storing clothes taken from people being executed. The clothes were then sorted by SS "hiwi"s who then supplied the Todt Organisation with a manifest and the Todt Organisation then assigned the clothes to the slave labour camps in need. Albert Speer describes this system in detail in "Inside the Third Reich"

Warsaw uprising was an event where 16,000 Germans were killed. I am not going to argue about repraisels from that event. I am investigating the alleged murder of millions of innocent people like Anne Frank.

]And where was that?

The debunking of the suggested linking between trainloads of old clothes and mass murder.

 

[George 152]

Go Matthew.
Though it's akin to shooting fish in a barrel