9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Matthew Ellard]

Revealing. Does not really sound like that you are a truthseeker who wants to learn something.

No, I did that at university and through books that have been peer reviewed. I don't seek "truth" on internet forums. Is that where you get all your info from? Is that why Cohoh and the IHR avoid "peer review"?

 

[Nonpareil]

Why make a quiz out of it? Why don't you simply state what you have to say about mr Taffel?

Give us the link, we pray. Please.

What, using "we" now? And this is pretty ironic, coming from Mr. Go-Dig-Through-The-Thread.

Revisionists are just trying to make it easy on you to come up with just one name. I'll advise you to contact Bradley Smith and collect your fee, provided you can back up your claims.

The name was given. Hundreds of names were given.

Wow, wait a minute, Natzweiler-Struthof you say? That camp located in France next to a quarry where Speer wanted to retrieve his granite from to realize his grand vision of Germania? Gassed you say? Are we entering new territory here? Do you really want to do this to yourself? Making a fool of yourself in post 2 already?

I read a book called 'Europa, Europa' from a well-known Dutch journalist W.L. 'boebie' Brugsma. He was there. He did not say anything about gas chambers in Natzweiler. Today the tale is restricted to 6 so-called extermination camps in Poland. Natzweiler is certainly not one of them.

This is because Natzweiler-Struthof was a) not in Poland, b) not as big as the other camps, and c) evacuated into Dachau during September 1944.

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/libcamps.shtml

Oh, yeah, totally an unbiased source.

In December 1944 US Army officers Colonel Paul Kirk and Lt. Colonel Edward J. Gully inspected the German concentration camp at Struthof-Natzweiler in Alsace. They submitted their findings to their superiors, who subsequently forwarded their report to the US War Crimes Division. While, significantly, the full text of their report has never been published, it has been revealed, by a historian supportive of Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to characterize equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a "so-called lethal gas chamber," and to claim it was "allegedly used as a lethal gas chamber." [15] (Emphasis added)

Uh, yeah, because it was part of an investigation rather than a formal ruling.

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/gaschambers.shtml
Today, one can see the alleged "gas chamber" of Struthof-Natzweiler and in the same place one can also read the unbelievable "confession" of Kramer. This "gas chamber," which is designated as an "historical monument," is a complete fraud. The slightest amount of critical spirit will be sufficient to convince oneself that a gassing in this small room, without any sealing whatsoever, would have been a catastrophe for the executioner as well as for the people in the vicinity.

"Without sealing?"



Yeah, like they wouldn't have sealed the chamber.
In any case, the Natzweiler-Struthof camp's gas chambers weren't used for mass extermination. Very few people were actually killed there, mainly for "anatomical experiments". Source.

In order to make this "gas chamber" (which is guaranteed to be "in its original condition") believable, someone has gone so for as to clumsily knock a hole into the thin wall with a chisel, and thereby break four tiles.

Proof of this? Or is it just another unfounded claim? And the article has no information on the other systems in place around the chambers.

The hole was so arranged that Josef Kramer would have dumped through it the mysterious "salts" (about which he could give no further details and which, when mixed with a little water, killed within one minute!). How could salts and water make such a gas? How could Kramer have prevented the gas from coming back out the hole? How could he see his victims from a hole which would have let him see no more than half the room? How did he ventilate the room before opening the rudimentary door, made from rough-cut lumber? Perhaps one must ask the civil engineering firm in Saint-Michel sur-Meurthe (Vosges), which after the war altered the place which today is presented to visitors "in its original condition"?

Argument from incredulity.

35,000 people were said to be identified, meaning: known by name. Krege does not do that because nobody and I mean really nobody, not even you or Skeptic, deny that Dresden was bombed. There are no Dresden deniers. Nobody likes to make a fool of himself.

This was already discussed here, but the Johnny come Lately that you are, obviously missed that. Find it back yourself.

Can do. I just find it extremely funny that you expect us to go digging for information, then demand links.

But whatever. I'll go find it. Then I can repost the entire conversation to save time, as it undoubtedly ended with your complete and utter defeat.

Not the faintest idea. Maybe there were no 870,000 people. How do you know. I do know that the official story: 870,000 people killed, buried, dug up again and burned to ash cannot be true. Keyword Krege. Discussed earlier.

And it cannot be true why...?

I do not know. Maybe they fled to the USSR before or during the German occupation (most German Jews fled Germany in the thirties), maybe large numbers went to Israel, US, Argentina, Australia or other destinations. Maybe they did not want to be Jews anymore and told the authorities they regarded themselves as catholic Poles.

So the authorities just didn't notice hundreds of thousands of immigrants? Just allowed them into the country without checking their backgrounds?

Never heard of that. I was in Auschwitz and saw similar exhibitions of suit cases, shoes and glasses, that could easily be explained from a death toll of 50,000 people dead as revisionists maintain. Do you have a source to that document/report?

Strawman.

I never said it could not have been done. Germans are much more efficient people than Rwandans. But that does not mean that it happened. As I said before, my car is able to drive 300,000 miles in a year. In reality in tiny Holland I drive 10,000 miles a year. 'Production' is not equal capacity, pardon my expression.

And yet earlier you claimed that it could not be true.

Nobody will miss you dudalb. Your 'contributions' are always one-liners containing some permutation du jour of words from the set: [bigot, anti-semite, other ADL/SPLC jargon]. By advocating to stop this thread you already made it clear that you recognize a defeat when you see one. You could not give me greater 'satisfaction'. My friendly advice: go, before you do even more damage to your case.

Ad hominem and bare-faced denial of the facts all rolled into one.

Revealing. Does not really sound like that you are a truthseeker who wants to learn something.

IRONY

- I brought up the the ridiculous accusation made against the Germans (pedal driven skull basher). Trojan countered that it was not taken serious, but it is still part of the NMT documents.

Because they kept a record of the trials, and therefore the allegations made were recorded. Your point is?

- Pure_Argent came up with this french Jewish communist (but I repeat myself) Vaillant or something, who turned out to be one of the key-witnesses of the Auschwitz hearings (never heard of her). I countered that the American female judge made a private note (according to Samuel Sowell) that she hardly believed Vaillant stories. And most damning of all: there was no cross examination like in every regular trial. It's just a prisoner telling a story that is taken for the truth without asking questions. Hence my judgment that Nuremberg was a show trial, a farce. And if you accept the notion of victors 'justice' than you have no understanding of justice at all.

See this thread as a low-grade attemp to repeat the NMT.

1) No one said she was a Communist
2) What's it matter if they did?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to beat my head against a brick wall. Maybe I can make some real progress.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Generally, historians dont use the internet. You will need to start with Wolfgang Sawdodny's "Deutsch Panzerzüge II" ( German armoured trains volume 2) ISBN0-88740-288-7 to see a summary of rail movements concerning Stroop's antipartisan train entering Warsaw and the rail movements of the victims to varios camps in Poland. The rail movement documents are listed so you may retrieve them yourself for Codoh or the IHR's library.

Amazon does not carry it as a regular item. I am sorry.

Well holocaust deniers are not known for doing any research are they? Did you add up the number of mens, women and children's shoes on the list of clothing I posted? Did you reach a conclusion? Do you think the trains going to treblinka were going for fun? ( average number was 6,000 people a train) Have you checked how many days it took to burn the bodies at Dresden? The ratios match Codoh has not rebutal for this.

Before we are going to jump to conclusions could you produce links that support your claims. I never heard from what you say.

I know you don't know.

You nothing about me.

That is why I am informing you. Considering Russia and Poland's war ended in 1926 and Poland was the main base for the anti communist White-Russian insurgents ( as evidenced by Stalin executing the Polish officer class at Katyn who ran the insurgency) I don't think many Poles would emigrate into Russia.

You have serious trouble distinguishing between Poles and Jews. There were very few if any Jews among the ranks of the White-Russian insurgents. The Jews were on the other side, the side of the mass murdering Bolshevik thugs (you know, the later precious allies of the Anglos), also described by that drunken hooligan Churchill as 'the wrong pigs' that should have been slaughtered rather than the Germans. But then it was too late. By that time Britain had lost it's empire and Europe was divided between said pigs and the Americans. Wonderful. Thank for liberating us. Please don't do it again.

The collapse of Army group centre was not a "broad front". It was only the centre. This is why many divisions, like Grossdeutchland were stuck in east Prussia. However wide guage rail was important to the Russians due to extended logistic lines and Treblinka was a major rail transit link that would allow the Russians a direct line to Warsaw.

Meaning that 'undocumented' trains were leaving Treblinka every half hour or so? Interesting information. I did not know that.

There are two stages at Treblinka that overlap. First there is the executions and the bodies were left partially buried. Then there is the international problem period when the Russians were lying and claiming the Germans executed the Polish officer class. The Germans were still hoping for a negotiated peace at this period and did not want the Russians to find 870,000dead poles. So they dug em up, put them on rails, used flamethrowers and petrol and burnt the evidence. They did the same thing to their own people's bodies after Dresden. Hitler burnt himself. It was the "german thing" However they were still executing jewish school girls at Treblinka during this second period.

You are very silent on Krege. "No soil disturbances since the last ice age".

Add up the numbers of clothes in the report I have already posted. (Hint:There are 275,000 overcoats that could be reused from the victims and considering many victims came from the Warsaw ghetto uprising, their overcoats would have been a "bit ragged". Perhaps one in four people had a "almost new overcoat" ). The clothes you saw at Auschwitz were those limited number of clothes waiting to to be distributed not what had been distributed and documented on Todt Organisation Records.

First please come up with some documentation about these 275,000 overcoats.

So, what does the IHR and Codoh's research documents say about the missing 3,300,000 jews? Isn't that a rather fundamental question?

In 2009, 64 years after the end of WW2 there are no less than 250,000 holocaust survivors in Israel alone. How does that translate to 1945... 1,000,000? 2,000,000? considering an average life span of 75 years.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1083989.html

Estimates of living Holocaust Survivors is between 834.000 -- 960.000. In the USA is estimated to be 140,000-160,000.
http://www.chacha.com/question/how-many-holocaust-survivors-are-still-alive-today

So almost 1,000,000 world wide, 64 years after the war. Somebody claimed that there are many statisticians here on this forum. Can somebody make a calculation how many survivors there were in 1945?

 

[Nonpareil]

Before we are going to jump to conclusions could you produce links that support your claims. I never heard from what you say.

He did. Nuremberg Document #1257 is publicly available.

You nothing about me.

Except that you're a Holocaust denialist who is entirely unwilling to listen to reason.

You have serious trouble distinguishing between Poles and Jews. There were very few if any Jews among the ranks of the White-Russian insurgents. The Jews were on the other side, the side of the mass murdering Bolshevik thugs (you know, the later precious allies of the Anglos), also described by that drunken hooligan Churchill as 'the wrong pigs' that should have been slaughtered rather than the Germans. But then it was too late. By that time Britain had lost it's empire and Europe was divided between said pigs and the Americans. Wonderful. Thank for liberating us. Please don't do it again.

Nice way to fail. Again, geographical location has no effect on religion.

First please come up with some documentation about these 275,000 overcoats.

Nuremberg Document #1257.

 

[Arkyrion]

I think that reading the bilk that you continue to cite as historical fact with absolutely no evidence backing your extraordinary claims is actually starting to cause the cells that make up my brain to slam themselves against the inside of my skull in a vain attempt to demonstrate the complete and utter disdain that I feel for you and your colander of an argument.

For the last time. Abide by the standards you set for others. Put up some evidence or shut up.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Amazon does not carry it as a regular item. I am sorry.

Amazon doesnt carry many historic german government documents either.

.You know nothing about me.

You are a holocaust denier. Have you changed since your last post?

You have serious trouble distinguishing between Poles and Jews. There were very few if any Jews among the ranks of the White-Russian insurgents. The Jews were on the other side, the side
of the mass murdering Bolshevik thugs

The Katyn officers were executed because they were Poles, not because they were Jews. Please read up on this. Mieczyslaw Norwid-Neugebauer was a Jewish Polish General in the pre-war Polish army. Stalin had no problem executing jewish and non jewish Poles at Katyn. It is a holocaust denier's fantasy that Bolshevism is a Jewish conspiracy. Catherine and Peter the great imported more germans than jews during Russia's westernization under the Czars. Germans were the fifth largest ethnic group in Russia as can be seen in some of the leading bolshevic names. Please remeber Marx was German.

Meaning that 'undocumented' trains were leaving Treblinka every half hour or so? Interesting information. I did not know that.

Trains are used to carry things. You have both the train records and the chattel manifests of the objects being carried at dispatch and at the receiving end. Where do you think the trains went after Treblinka? Do you think they carried everyone back to Warsaw after a nice train trip? So where did these people go after the Treblinka station ( you know...the one with the false building for storing clothes taken for people being executed as documented in the Todt Organisation document I have cited for you? )

You are very silent on Krege. "No soil disturbances since the last ice age".

So you have seen the Teblinka photos of the steam shovels digging away but you simultaneously think "no disturbances since the ice ages". However I am going to do Treblinka in depth with you as our next project using fence lines, photos, arial photos, steam shovel movements, documents etc. I will need to use books as well as the Nizkor internet database of German documents.

First please come up with some documentation about these 275,000 overcoats.

I have already posted it above but here it is again so you can retreive the document. Nuremberg Document NO-1257. I have already posted the detailed analysis of clothing items in this same post so you can add up the number of overcoats.

So almost 1,000,000 world wide, 64 years after the war. Somebody claimed that there are many statisticians here on this forum. Can somebody make a calculation how many survivors there were in 1945?

I love this game! You are no doubt refering to the Barrington James calculation at the Rense Organisation that used similar figures to yours based on 2006 populations. Barrington Jones does a fantastic job. It's just a bummer that he fails to reproduce the complete core documentation supplied by Professor Dellapergola which include this fundamental statement In 1939 there were 16.5 million Jews in the world, and in 1945 the number was estimated at 11 million,

 

[lionking]

A systematic demolition job. Well done Matthew.

 

[Simon39759]

<- Sits down on the bleacher and unroll his 'Go Matthew, go!' banner.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

A systematic demolition job. Well done Matthew.

Well, the long term aim is to keep things civil and polite. Every now and then the Holocaust Deniers have a point which improves our knowledge. I was "destroyed" myself, by a holocaust denier, on another forum, concerning the diplomatic documents leading to Britain invading Iran during the war. He was right. I was wrong and we both agreed there is no loss in face in being proved wrong and continued our civil discussion.

 

[Skeptic]

9-11's view of reality reminds one of Homer Simpson's: "Facts, schmacts. You can prove anything that's even remotely true with facts."

I concur with the praise for Matthew, but I don't expect it to have much results on 9-11's attitude. He will just declare everybody & anybody in Matthew's sources a "liar".

But it does help educate people in general about what happened, which is far more important than changing what is jokingly known as a "mind" in 9-11's psyche.

 

[sonofgloin]

Germans were the fifth largest ethnic group in Russia as can be seen in some of the leading bolshevic names. Please remeber Marx was German.

FYI Mathew from Wiki, if he was not jewish he was close.


"Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine. His father, Heinrich Marx, a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire, who took part in agitations for a constitution in Prussia. His mother, born Henrietta Pressburg, was from Holland. Both parents were Jewish and were descended from a long line of rabbis, but, a year or so before Karl was born, his father—probably because his professional career required it—was baptized in the Evangelical Established Church. Karl was baptized when he was six years old.[6]"

 

[sonofgloin]

9-11's view of reality reminds one of Homer Simpson's: "Facts, schmacts. You can prove anything that's even remotely true with facts."

I also like the one where Homer is refuting some statistic... "Statistics, you can prove anything with statistics, 96% of people know that"

But it does help educate people in general about what happened, which is far more important than changing what is jokingly known as a "mind" in 9-11's psyche.

All zealots no matter what the cause suspend facts to accomodate their agendas. Every one of reason knows what happened to the Jews of Europe in the 40's and I have noted like the new far right the deniers are simple and youthful and generally looking for a point of difference from accepted historic interpritations of events, they get off on the point of difference no matter what subject they choose, their agenda is to be noticed.

 

[Belz...]

I never said it could not have been done. Germans are much more efficient people than Rwandans. But that does not mean that it happened. As I said before, my car is able to drive 300,000 miles in a year. In reality in tiny Holland I drive 10,000 miles a year. 'Production' is not equal capacity, pardon my expression.

So, let me recap...

The Holocaust is possible. The Nazis had the motives and the means. We have documents that show it was carried out in several different ways throughout their rule. We have photographs that clearly show that it happened. The overwhelming majority of historians, who have reviewed the evidence, agree that it happened.

But it didn't, right ?

 

[Nonpareil]

<snip various excellent posts>

Well, Matthew, it looks like you could basically take out 9/11-investigator single-handedly (with a few fingers broken beforehand as well), but I hope you don't mind if I keep going as well.

 

[9/11-investigator]

You are a holocaust denier. Have you changed since your last post?

As I wrote in my first post in this thread: "I believe that the holocaust happened if you can demonstrate it to me that it happened". Holocaust-revisionism is only a minute part of my life: read Butz, Graf, visited Dachau and Auschwitz. That's it. Corps counting is not a hobby of mine. The reason why I put some effort in the matter is that I am not interested in a new, now secular, holocaust religion. Hence my resistence.

The Katyn officers were executed because they were Poles, not because they were Jews. Please read up on this. Mieczyslaw Norwid-Neugebauer was a Jewish Polish General in the pre-war Polish army. Stalin had no problem executing jewish and non jewish Poles at Katyn.

They were killed because they were Polish elite. It was the standard procedure of the communists of decapitating a nation by killing it's elite. 'Kill the Best Gentiles', or ´Tob Shebbe Goyim Harog´. I have posted earlier here original the document that ordered the killing, signed by the Jew Beria (some deny he is a Jew).

It is a holocaust denier's fantasy that Bolshevism is a Jewish conspiracy.

It's not a fantasy, but that's a topic for a different thread.

Catherine and Peter the great imported more germans than jews during Russia's westernization under the Czars. Germans were the fifth largest ethnic group in Russia as can be seen in some of the leading bolshevic names.

Are you trying to sell the idea that Catherine and Peter were proto-Bolsheviki and nevertheless imported more Germans than Jews?

Please remeber Marx was German.

I remember that Marx was a (secular) Jew. Grave error. Everybody knows that

Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine. His father, Heinrich Marx, a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire, who took part in agitations for a constitution in Prussia. His mother, born Henrietta Pressburg, was from Holland. Both parents were Jewish and were descended from a long line of rabbis

Trains are used to carry things. You have both the train records and the chattel manifests of the objects being carried at dispatch and at the receiving end.

No I don't.

Where do you think the trains went after Treblinka? Do you think they carried everyone back to Warsaw after a nice train trip? So where did these people go after the Treblinka station ( you know...the one with the false building for storing clothes taken for people being executed as documented in the Todt Organisation document I have cited for you? )

To other camps. Take the Frank family or Wiesel. They are 3 months here, 6 months there. Probably going to places where their labour was in demand. I mean, the Germans had even their children fighting the Soviet menace. They could not afford wasting these 'resources'.

So you have seen the Teblinka photos of the steam shovels digging away but you simultaneously think "no disturbances since the ice ages".

'So you have seen'??? No I haven't. I have just seen a video from Krege where he is doing this scanning operation, posted earlier in this thread.

I have already posted it above but here it is again so you can retreive the document. Nuremberg Document NO-1257. I have already posted the detailed analysis of clothing items in this same post so you can add up the number of overcoats.

You could have saved us a lot of time by providing a direct links rather than just a keyword. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/05/NMT05-T0699.htm
(click through the pages using the blue arrows)

En there is indeed a list of old cloths collected from Jews while being resettled. Now Matthew wants to insinuate (without a shred of proof) that these cloths were taken from Jews after they were gassed. What Matthew here is totally overlooking that people in Auschwitz were not dressed like at home. Take a look at the 'haute couture' a la Auschwitz:

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-2/auschwitz-Soviet_lib.GIF

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/poland/Auschwitz/OldPhotos/AuschwitzLiberation.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39901000/jpg/_39901582_auschwitz_ap_238.jpg

Is Matthew trying to suggest that the Jews and others were wearing these clothes at home before they were deported? Of course not. What does Matthew think? That the Germans were exploiting a dry cleaners? Ach mein Lieber, Frau Mendelsohn wants to have her fur coat cleaned yet again? At what temperature do we need to treat this again? 30 degr? 50 degr.? Of course it doesn't work like that. A concentration camp is a mass operation with standardized conditions, like in a normal prison. You come in, you hand over your belt, your watch, your money, you get shaved and showered, you get prisoners clothings and they take your clothsings and send them to poor Germans in the Ukraine as the document reveals. Of course in the document there is not a hint that these cloths came from 'gassed people'. For the simple reason: there were no gassed people.

I love this game! You are no doubt refering to the Barrington James calculation at the Rense Organisation that used similar figures to yours based on 2006 populations.

You should doubt a bit more in your life and not assume anything all the time. That's your mistake, mr Know-all. I never heard of this James Barrington character.

Barrington Jones does a fantastic job. It's just a bummer that he fails to reproduce the complete core documentation supplied by Professor Dellapergola which include this fundamental statement In 1939 there were 16.5 million Jews in the world, and in 1945 the number was estimated at 11 million,

We have discussed population statistics earlier in the thread. With these statistics you can 'prove' that a holocaust occured in the 1990's.

Matthew, as was to be expected, is debunked. Nevertheless he is probably smarter than most of the rest here and even has manners (you are probably not American?) and does not start to blast away yelling 'Nazi' and 'bigot'. Maybe I should take him somewhat more seriously than the others here. But in the end I am sure we are going to have a lot of fun with him.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Ignorantbystander]

No, I haven't seen this

No, I haven't read this

No, I don't know this

Holocaust debunked....

 

[9/11-investigator]

You are a holocaust denier. Have you changed since your last post?

As I wrote in my first post in this thread: "I believe that the holocaust happened if you can demonstrate it to me that it happened". Holocaust-revisionism is only a minute part of my life: read Butz, Graf, visited Dachau and Auschwitz. That's it. Corps counting is not a hobby of mine. The reason why I put some effort in the matter is that I am not interested in a new, now secular, holocaust religion. Hence my resistence.

The Katyn officers were executed because they were Poles, not because they were Jews. Please read up on this. Mieczyslaw Norwid-Neugebauer was a Jewish Polish General in the pre-war Polish army. Stalin had no problem executing jewish and non jewish Poles at Katyn.

[COLOR]It is a holocaust denier's fantasy that Bolshevism is a Jewish conspiracy.

It's not a fantasy, but that's a topic for a different thread.

[COLOR]Catherine and Peter the great imported more germans than jews during Russia's westernization under the Czars. Germans were the fifth largest ethnic group in Russia as can be seen in some of the leading bolshevic names. [/COLOR]

Are you trying to sell the idea that Catherine and Peter were proto-Bolsheviki and nevertheless imported more Germans than Jews?

[COLOR]Please remeber Marx was German. [/COLOR]

I remember that Marx was a Jew.

Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine. His father, Heinrich Marx, a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire, who took part in agitations for a constitution in Prussia. His mother, born Henrietta Pressburg, was from Holland. Both parents were Jewish and were descended from a long line of rabbis


Trains are used to carry things. You have both the train records and the chattel manifests of the objects being carried at dispatch and at the receiving end.

No I don't.

[COLOR]Where do you think the trains went after Treblinka? Do you think they carried everyone back to Warsaw after a nice train trip? So where did these people go after the Treblinka station ( you know...the one with the false building for storing clothes taken for people being executed as documented in the Todt Organisation document I have cited for you? ) [/COLOR]

To other camps. Take the Frank family or Wiesel. They are 3 months here, 6 months there. Probably going to places where their labour was in demand. I mean, the Germans had even their children fighting the Soviet menace. They could not afford wasting these 'resources'.

So you have seen the Teblinka photos of the steam shovels digging away but you simultaneously think "no disturbances since the ice ages".

'So you have seen'??? No I haven't. I have just seen a video from Krege where he is doing this scanning operation, posted earlier in this thread.

I have already posted it above but here it is again so you can retreive the document. Nuremberg Document NO-1257. I have already posted the detailed analysis of clothing items in this same post so you can add up the number of overcoats.

You could have saved us a lot of time by providing a direct links rather than just a keyword. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/05/NMT05-T0699.htm
(click through the pages using the blue arrows)

En there is indeed a list of old cloths collected from Jews while being resettled. Now Matthew wants to insinuate (without a shred of proof) that these cloths were taken from Jews after they were gassed. What Matthew here is totally overlooking that people in Auschwitz were not dressed like at home. Take a look at the 'haute couture' a la Auschwitz:

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-2/auschwitz-Soviet_lib.GIF

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/poland/Auschwitz/OldPhotos/AuschwitzLiberation.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39901000/jpg/_39901582_auschwitz_ap_238.jpg

Is Matthew trying to suggest that the Jews and others were wearing these clothes at home before they were deported? Of course not. What does Matthew think? That the Germans were exploiting a dry cleaners? Ach mein Lieber, Frau Mendelsohn wants to have her fur coat cleaned yet again? At what temperature do we need to treat this again? 30 degr? 50 degr.? Of course it doesn't work like that. A concentration camp is a mass operation with standardized conditions, like in a normal prison. You come in, you hand over your belt, your watch, your money, you get shaved and showered, you get prisoners clothings and they take your clothsings and send them to poor Germans in the Ukraine as the document reveals. Of course in the document there is not a hint that these cloths came from 'gassed people'. For the simple reason: there were no gassed people.

I love this game! You are no doubt refering to the Barrington James calculation at the Rense Organisation that used similar figures to yours based on 2006 populations.

You should doubt a bit more in your life and not assume anything all the time. That's your mistake, mr Know-all. I never heard of this James Barrington character.

Barrington Jones does a fantastic job. It's just a bummer that he fails to reproduce the complete core documentation supplied by Professor Dellapergola which include this fundamental statement In 1939 there were 16.5 million Jews in the world, and in 1945 the number was estimated at 11 million,

We have discussed population statistics earlier in the thread. With these statistics you can 'prove' that a holocaust occured in the 1990's.

Matthew, as was to be expected, is debunked. Nevertheless he is probably smarter than most of the rest here. He even has manners and does not start to blast away jelling 'Nazi' and 'bigot'. Maybe I should take him somewhat more seriously than the others here. But in the end I am sure we are going to have a lot of fun with him.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[9/11-investigator]

You are a holocaust denier. Have you changed since your last post?

As I wrote in my first post in this thread: "I believe that the holocaust happened if you can demonstrate it to me that it happened". Holocaust-revisionism is only a minute part of my life: I have read Butz, Graf, some IHR-articles and visited Dachau and Auschwitz. That's it. Corps counting is not a hobby of mine. The reason why I put some effort in the matter is that I am not interested in a new, now secular, holocaust religion, used to destroy European civilization. Hence my resistence.

The Katyn officers were executed because they were Poles, not because they were Jews. Please read up on this. Mieczyslaw Norwid-Neugebauer was a Jewish Polish General in the pre-war Polish army. Stalin had no problem executing jewish and non jewish Poles at Katyn.

The were killed because they were Polish elite. It was standard communist procedure to decapitate a nation by killing off it's elite. 'Kill the best Gentile' or in Hebrew: "Tob Shebbe Goyim Harog". Earlier in this thread I have shown the original document where the Jew Beria orders the killing (some deny he is a Jew).

It is a holocaust denier's fantasy that Bolshevism is a Jewish conspiracy.

It's not a fantasy; for the same reason that Jewish neocons now rule the US, a similar pattern was active in the USSR, albeit with a different ideology. But Jewish communism is a topic for a different thread.

Catherine and Peter the great imported more germans than jews during Russia's westernization under the Czars. Germans were the fifth largest ethnic group in Russia as can be seen in some of the leading bolshevic names.

Are you trying to sell the idea that Catherine and Peter were proto-Bolsheviki and nevertheless imported more Germans than Jews?

Please remeber Marx was German.

I remember that Marx was a Jew. A rather grave error you make here. Every body knows he is Jewish.

Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine. His father, Heinrich Marx, a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire, who took part in agitations for a constitution in Prussia. His mother, born Henrietta Pressburg, was from Holland. Both parents were Jewish and were descended from a long line of rabbis

Trains are used to carry things. You have both the train records and the chattel manifests of the objects being carried at dispatch and at the receiving end.

No I don't.

Where do you think the trains went after Treblinka? Do you think they carried everyone back to Warsaw after a nice train trip? So where did these people go after the Treblinka station ( you know...the one with the false building for storing clothes taken for people being executed as documented in the Todt Organisation document I have cited for you? )

To other camps. Take the Frank family or Wiesel. They are 3 months here, 6 months there. Probably going to places where their labour was in demand. I mean, the Germans had even their children fighting the Soviet menace. They could not afford wasting these 'resources'.

So you have seen the Teblinka photos of the steam shovels digging away but you simultaneously think "no disturbances since the ice ages".

'So you have seen'??? No I haven't. I have just seen a video from Krege where he is doing this scanning operation, posted earlier in this thread.

I have already posted it above but here it is again so you can retreive the document. Nuremberg Document NO-1257. I have already posted the detailed analysis of clothing items in this same post so you can add up the number of overcoats.

You could have saved us a lot of time by providing a direct links rather than just a keyword. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/05/NMT05-T0699.htm
(click through the pages using the blue arrows)

En there is indeed a list of old cloths collected from Jews while being resettled. Now Matthew wants to insinuate (without a shred of proof) that these cloths were taken from Jews after they were gassed. What Matthew here is totally overlooking that people in Auschwitz were not dressed like at home. Take a look at the 'haute couture' a la Auschwitz:

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-2/auschwitz-Soviet_lib.GIF

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/poland/Auschwitz/OldPhotos/AuschwitzLiberation.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39901000/jpg/_39901582_auschwitz_ap_238.jpg

Is Matthew trying to suggest that the Jews and others were wearing these clothes at home before they were deported? Of course not. What does Matthew think? That the Germans were exploiting a dry cleaners? Ach mein Lieber, Frau Mendelsohn wants to have her fur coat cleaned yet again? At what temperature do we need to treat this again? 30 degr? 50 degr.? Of course it doesn't work like that. A concentration camp is a mass operation with standardized conditions, like in a normal prison. You come in, you hand over your belt, your watch, your money, you get shaved and showered, you get prisoners clothings and they take your clothsings and send them to poor Germans in the Ukraine as the document reveals. Of course in the document there is not a hint that these cloths came from 'gassed people'. For the simple reason: there were no gassed people.

I love this game! You are no doubt refering to the Barrington James calculation at the Rense Organisation that used similar figures to yours based on 2006 populations.

You should doubt a bit more in your life and not assume everything all the time. That's your mistake, mr Know-All. I never heard of this James Barrington character.

Barrington Jones does a fantastic job. It's just a bummer that he fails to reproduce the complete core documentation supplied by Professor Dellapergola which include this fundamental statement In 1939 there were 16.5 million Jews in the world, and in 1945 the number was estimated at 11 million,

We have discussed population statistics earlier in the thread. With these statistics you can 'prove' that a holocaust occured in the 1990's.

Matthew, as was to be expected, is debunked. Nevertheless he is probably smarter than most of the rest here. He even has manners and does not start to blast away jelling 'Nazi' and 'bigot'. Maybe I should take him somewhat more seriously than the others here. But in the end I am sure we are going to have a lot of fun with him.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Are you trying to sell the idea that Catherine and Peter were proto-Bolsheviki and nevertheless imported more Germans than Jews?

Peter the Great was German, Didn't you know that? That's why the old Russian capital has a German name "St Petersburg".

I remember that Marx was a Jew.

You edited out this bit from your wikipedia quote.....was baptized in the Evangelical Established Church. Karl was baptized when he was six years old.

[COLOR]Where do you think the trains went after Treblinka? Do you think they carried everyone back to Warsaw after a nice train trip? So where did these people go after the Treblinka station ( you know...the one with the false building for storing clothes taken for people being executed as documented in the Todt Organisation document I have cited for you? ) [/color]

To other camps. Take the Frank family or Wiesel. They are 3 months here, 6 months there. Probably going to places where their labour was in demand.

Were they travelling "in the nude" considering their clothes were all taken as cited in that document I showed you? Can you show me the Todt Organisation labour request for Teblinka jews to the SS? This would state the labour camps they were requested for. There are no camps after Teblinka are there? So why were they on the train?

Lets us read Himmler's quote from the 4th October 1943, recorded speech to the gruppenfuhrer ( SS group leaders) in Pozen. ( Available at the National Archives, Washington...they have the original wire recording!)

"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish People. This is something that is easily said "The Jewish people will be exterminated" says every party member. "It is very obvious, it is our program - elimination of the Jews" and they turn up , the brave 80 million Germans and each one has his decent Jew. It is obvious that the others are pigs but this particular one is a splendid Jew. Most of you know what it means when a 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or 1000 are lined up. To have endured this and remained a decent person....has made us tough. This is an honoor roll in history which has never been and never will be put in writing".

You may want to read a full analysis of this quote in context to the time line in Michael Shermers "Why People believe in Weird Things" 1997 Souvenir Press Ltd ISBN9780285638037.

I mean, the Germans had even their children fighting the Soviet menace. They could not afford wasting these 'resources'.

Please read Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" Most german factories were using foreign and slave labour so they could send their last untrained factory workers and children to fight highly experienced Soviet soldiers. This is because Hitler was so stupid he started a war without introducing a war economy. It is Hitler's fault German children fought Russian soldiers and died in large numbers.

there is indeed a list of old cloths collected from Jews while being resettled. Now Matthew wants to insinuate (without a shred of proof) that these cloths were taken from Jews after they were gassed. What Matthew here is totally overlooking that people in Auschwitz were not dressed like at home. Take a look at the 'haute couture' a la Auschwitz:

I didn't say "gassed" anywhere. Please take more care with your quotes (and don't edit out facts like Marx's baptism when he was 6years old. Historians are not meant to hide things that don't support their argument)

What has uniforms in Auschwitz camps got to do with Treblinka where there were no uniforms or barracks? Do you understand the different types of camps?

Is Matthew trying to suggest that the Jews and others were wearing these clothes at home before they were deported? Of course not. What does Matthew think? That the Germans were exploiting a dry cleaners?

No they were wearing them on the train when they arrived, a large portion after being rounded up in Warsaw ( Read the Stroop report to Hitler). They were then then told to disrobe. The clothes were then dumped in the fake train station at Tereblinka for storing clothes taken from people being executed. The clothes were then sorted by SS "hiwi"s who then supplied the Todt Organisation with a manifest and the Todt Organisation then assigned the clothes to the slave labour camps in need. Albert Speer describes this system in detail in "Inside the Third Reich"

Matthew, as was to be expected, is debunked.

And where was that?

 

[Nonpareil]

As I wrote in my first post in this thread: "I believe that the holocaust happened if you can demonstrate it to me that it happened". Holocaust-revisionism is only a minute part of my life: I have read Butz, Graf, some IHR-articles and visited Dachau and Auschwitz. That's it. Corps counting is not a hobby of mine. The reason why I put some effort in the matter is that I am not interested in a new, now secular, holocaust religion, used to destroy European civilization. Hence my resistence.

It isn't a religion, and it doesn't in any way destroy European civilization. You're just paranoid.

The were killed because they were Polish elite. It was standard communist procedure to decapitate a nation by killing off it's elite. 'Kill the best Gentile' or in Hebrew: "Tob Shebbe Goyim Harog".

Uh... so you're agreeing that they were executed because they were Polish?

Earlier in this thread I have shown the original document where the Jew Beria orders the killing (some deny he is a Jew).

That's because he wasn't. There is no evidence to support the contention that he was.

It's not a fantasy;

Yes it is.

for the same reason that Jewish neocons now rule the US,

No, they don't.

a similar pattern was active in the USSR, albeit with a different ideology.

No, it wasn't.

But Jewish communism is a topic for a different thread.

Sure. Want to go ahead and make it?

Are you trying to sell the idea that Catherine and Peter were proto-Bolsheviki and nevertheless imported more Germans than Jews?

Uh, no, he isn't.

I remember that Marx was a Jew. A rather grave error. Every body knows he is Jewish.

Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine. His father, Heinrich Marx, a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire, who took part in agitations for a constitution in Prussia. His mother, born Henrietta Pressburg, was from Holland. Both parents were Jewish and were descended from a long line of rabbis

Wow. I have rarely seen such an incredible display of intellectual dishonesty. You neglected to include the next sentence of the article, which proves you a bare-faced liar.

Both parents were Jewish and were descended from a long line of rabbis, but, a year or so before Karl was born, his father—probably because his professional career required it—was baptized in the Evangelical Established Church. Karl was baptized when he was six years old.

So, no, he wasn't Jewish. Way to fail. And even if he were, what would it matter? You are doing nothing but displaying your raging antisemitism.

To other camps. Take the Frank family or Wiesel. They are 3 months here, 6 months there. Probably going to places where their labour was in demand. I mean, the Germans had even their children fighting the Soviet menace. They could not afford wasting these 'resources'.

Okay, so you claim that the Jews were perpetually moved from camp to camp. Unfortunately for you, all of the Jews who weren't killed immediately upon arrival were tattooed and documented. So you need to answer the following questions:

1) Where are the documents showing the movements of prisoners bearing the Frank family's tattoos from camp to camp, presumably multiple times over the war?
2) Where did they all disappear to after the camps were liberated?

You could have saved us a lot of time by providing a direct links rather than just a keyword. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/05/NMT05-T0699.htm
(click through the pages using the blue arrows)

En there is indeed a list of old cloths collected from Jews while being resettled. Now Matthew wants to insinuate (without a shred of proof) that these cloths were taken from Jews after they were gassed. What Matthew here is totally overlooking that people in Auschwitz were not dressed like at home. Take a look at the 'haute couture' a la Auschwitz:

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-2/auschwitz-Soviet_lib.GIF

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/poland/Auschwitz/OldPhotos/AuschwitzLiberation.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39901000/jpg/_39901582_auschwitz_ap_238.jpg

Is Matthew trying to suggest that the Jews and others were wearing these clothes at home before they were deported? Of course not.

Well, actually, yes, that's what happened. The Jews, whether they were gassed or not, were stripped of their possessions - clothing included - upon arrival at the camps. This clothing was sent to the nearby Polish city of Brzezinka.

We have discussed population statistics earlier in the thread. With these statistics you can 'prove' that a holocaust occured in the 1990's.

No, you can't.

Matthew, as was to be expected, is debunked.

No, he isn't.

Nevertheless he is probably smarter than most of the rest here. He even has manners and does not start to blast away jelling 'Nazi' and 'bigot'. Maybe I should take him somewhat more seriously than the others here. But in the end I am sure we are going to have a lot of fun with him.

Welcome to the forum.

Wow, simultaneous welcome and ad hom. I'm impressed.

ETA: Matthew beat me to it. Dang, but he's a quick one.