Split Thread 7WTC - controlled demolition or fire and damage induced collapse?

Miragememories said:
"You pre-suppose the NIST hypothetical blast scenario is the only plausible explanation for a controlled demolition of WTC7 which has any validity.

I have to wonder what the Japanese concluded in terms of conventional explosives immediately following the bombing of Hiroshima?

No doubt they based all their thinking on conventional munitions as well.

The whole Official Conspiracy Theory has now been whittled down to a pathetic;
gee it could not have been an inside job because we don't have proof of the boom sounds we expected.

As long as the technology employed is kept secret, OCTers will translate what happened only in terms of what is publicly unclassified.

Much like how the indians reacted to the white man's "fire sticks".

For OCTers, ignorance is truly bliss."
jaydeehess said:
"MM, you are invoking an unsubstantiated, purely hypothetical technology simply because you wish there to be one."
So you claim the public is privy to all possible demolition technologies?

That to believe that there are in existence demolition technologies which are
deemed TOP SECRET, is fantasy and constitutes a belief in magic?

Before they were publicly revealed, but immediately after they had been detonated in Japan, a claim that those nuclear explosions represented a TOP SECRET technology could have been treated in identical fashion.

They were real, and it was not pixie dust!

jaydeehess said:
"You invoke this magical technology despite the facts of known fire and structural engineering allowing for the events to have unfolded as in the commonly accepted narritive of Sept. 11/01."

OMG

Show me the proof.

We have nothing but the NIST's pathetic theory.

I've repeatedly asked for one single example of a concrete and steel building that was completely demolished by fire and to this day no one has been able to present one.

So don't go spewing your known facts supporting that bs 9/11 narrative.

MM
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No one here claims to "know it all" MM. However you are invoking an old conspiracy theme, "you don't know what they do or don't have". Its a cop out that you believe allows you to presume anything you wish. It is wishful thinking at its worst.
It is, to my mind, reminiscent of those posters who really believe that perhaps "The Matrix" is a docu-drama.
The Matrix, while pure science fiction, is still food for thought.

MM
 
OMG

Show me the proof.

We have nothing but the NIST's pathetic theory.

Well, so far we have Magic Explosives vs. High School Physics. Quite the conundrum. What would Elvis do?

I've repeatedly asked for one single example of a concrete and steel building that was completely demolished by fire and to this day no one has been able to present one.

Here’s a start:
 
So you claim the public is privy to all possible demolition technologies?

That to believe that there are in existence demolition technologies which are
deemed TOP SECRET, is fantasy and constitutes a belief in magic?

High explosives by their very nature work by making a very loud sound wave generally called a "blast."

No sound wave, no demolition explosion.

There really is no Hush-A-Boom.
 
Hello? The screenwall and west-penthouse have not fallen at 4:13.
Your complete denial of reality is astounding. YOu state this only because Chandler states this. I guess you close your eyes and just listen. Why am I not surprised.
 
High explosives by their very nature work by making a very loud sound wave generally called a "blast."

No sound wave, no demolition explosion.
Being that our veracious perps "didn't care much" for doing things traditionally these are some of the symptoms that would have been anticipated from the effects of such devices (including the massive hush-a-booms capable of hurling massive 9 ton beams):
Blast injuries traditionally are divided into 4 categories: primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary (or miscellaneous) injuries. A patient may be injured by more than one of these mechanisms.1,2

  • A primary blast injury is caused solely by the direct effect of blast overpressure on tissue. Air is easily compressible, unlike water. As a result, a primary blast injury almost always affects air-filled structures such as the lung, ear, and gastrointestinal (GI) tract.
  • A secondary blast injury is caused by flying objects that strike people.
  • A tertiary blast injury is a feature of high-energy explosions. This type of injury occurs when people fly through the air and strike other objects.
  • Miscellaneous or quaternary blast injuries encompass all other injuries caused by explosions, such as burns, crush injuries, and toxic inhalations. For example, the crash of two jet airplanes into the World Trade Center only created a relatively low-order pressure wave, but the resulting fire and building collapse killed thousands.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/822587-overview

Truthers say they have 118 witnesses to loud demolition explosions. Just curious as to how many of those exhibited primary, secondary, or tertiary blast injuries from their close proximity to such devices? Like Mr Willy from the basement, or those who survived the collapse of one of the towers within the stair well?

How many witnesses suffered noise induced hearing loss? from their close proximity to these blasts? Why does not a single one of these 118 witnesses report such symptoms. Better yet why not more than 118 people? (Forget for a moment that many of these people were either disingenuously quote mined/similes and metaphorical statement were taken hyper literally)

How many columns examined on-site or at fresh kills were observed to have suffered blast damage to the joints where they connected?

What physical evidence of these supposed shape charges exists or was found in any of the rubble piles during rescue and cleanup operations.

Since truthers have no answer... rather they refuse to address such issues with their theories, I have no reason to take these 911 conspiracies seriously. They are the ones saying that pseudoscience is crackpottery after all.
 
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Can you please explain how claiming 40% of free fall IGNORES the 2.25 secs of supposed free fall? Are you saying that since the collapse HAD 2.25 secs of free fall incorporated into it, the percentage should be something different? That it should NOT be 5.4 secs for the roof line to disappear from view?

I don't get it. The videos I see show the roof line dropping out of view in 5.4 secs. Do you have a video that shows a different time?

:confused:
Chances are, you will never get it, but that's OK. :rolleyes:

Ignore - disregard intentionally

Their model does not have a period of FFA as Dr. Sunder stated.
 
C7 said:
I guess you missed this:
a free fall time would be an object that has no structural components below it . . . there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case.
A building cannot fall at free fall acceleration and crush structural steel at the same time. The only way to get a building to fall at free fall acceleration is to remove all the supporting structure simultaneously with explosives.
Yeah, yeah…you said all that crap already. But where is the evidence? Would it help if I ask nicely? Like “pretty please”? Just a little evidence?
That IS the evidence. :rolleyes:

This little article you provided seems to be a great big ol’ contradiction in what you’re trying to sell. I shall quote the article:
That creates a lot of open area for floors to fall during a collapse, no? Seems that your FFA theory just got another hole punched, seeing that FFA can be achieved when there’s missing floors that can’t slow it down and the extra large distance for a mass to built up speed.
The Salomon floors were the top half.
The collapse was supposedly on the 5th - 13th floors.
14 Vacant
13 U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Provident Financial Management, American Express
11, 12 U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission
10, 9 U.S. Secret Service
7, 8 American Express
5, 6 Mechanical floors
4 Meeting spaces, cafeteria
1 through 3 Lobbies, conference center

That’s quite a number. Nine generators on the fifth floor. That’s a lot of space and a lot of diesel fuel.
The diesel fuel was in tanks under the loading dock in the south west part of the 1st floor. NCSTAR 1A pg 11 [pdf pg 53]

You don’t find this rather large fuel supply and numerous ignition points as suspicious? Maybe the thermite crews were careful on that floor? I mean, burning diesel fuel across a large area inside a building isn’t such a big deal, right?
There were no fires on the first 6 floors. NCSTAR 1A pg 19 [pdf pg 61]

7 said:
The fire that supposedly caused the collapse had gone out over an hour before the collapse. That was also covered earlier in this thread.
I remember reading something to that effect, but I don’t recall seeing any evidence that supports this. I don’t really have my hopes up to see any in the near future either.
Here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6262139&postcount=306
 
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Ya mean the lawyer who couldn't find his way downstairs?

He said the same thing Mr. Jennings said on 9/11. "There was an explosion and we were trapped on the 8th floor". This is the only thing they agree on. Statements made years later to the contrary cannot be considered reliable.

Cause they always blow out the supports seven hours prior to the collapse. :rolleyes:
 
C7 said:
Ya mean the lawyer who couldn't find his way downstairs?

He said the same thing Mr. Jennings said on 9/11. "There was an explosion and we were trapped on the 8th floor". This is the only thing they agree on. Statements made years later to the contrary cannot be considered reliable.
Cause they always blow out the supports seven hours prior to the collapse. :rolleyes:
Premature detonation perhaps. I take their 9/11 statements at face value although I'm skeptical about both of them because they both changed their stories. You may take them any way you like.
 
Before they were publicly revealed, but immediately after they had been detonated in Japan, a claim that those nuclear explosions represented a TOP SECRET technology could have been treated in identical fashion.

They were real, and it was not pixie dust!

Nuclear weapons were not new theory, they simply hadn't been constructed until then. The theory was well known (which is why they were building the damn things) and other nations were, or soon would be, setting to work on developing their own A bombs. It was group of scientists that encouraged Roosevelt to take an interest, and information on the subject was being exchanged among a large group of scientists scattered around the world. They and their colleagues were in no way controlled by security service 'top secret' rules and regulations.

Your proposal of silent CD methods, however, represents not only unknown technology but unknown theory. Which is why people are, quite rightly, calling it an 'appeal to magic'.

Quiet means slow. Slow (including thermite and variations, even if they could be applied) means unpredictable timing. You can't have it both ways.
 
Being that our veracious perps "didn't care much" for doing things traditionally these are some of the symptoms that would have been anticipated from the effects of such devices (including the massive hush-a-booms capable of hurling massive 9 ton beams):


http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/822587-overview

Truthers say they have 118 witnesses to loud demolition explosions. Just curious as to how many of those exhibited primary, secondary, or tertiary blast injuries from their close proximity to such devices? Like Mr Willy from the basement, or those who survived the collapse of one of the towers within the stair well?

How many witnesses suffered noise induced hearing loss? from their close proximity to these blasts? Why does not a single one of these 118 witnesses report such symptoms. Better yet why not more than 118 people? (Forget for a moment that many of these people were either disingenuously quote mined/similes and metaphorical statement were taken hyper literally)

I combed what medical and trauma literature I could find for writeups of barotrauma from 9/11 back in 2007 (here's a post combining my findings and T.A.M.'s response - he's an MD, by the way - into one: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3244833&postcount=267). I compared what little I found - and believe me, it was little - to events like the Madrid bombing and the Israeli bus bombings. Believe it or not, there are instances recorded in NY on that day. Thing is, they're few and far between, plus they're not indicative of the severe sorts of barotrauma seen in those other, smaller bombings. In the Israeli bombings, for example, you find many reports of what's called "pulmonary contusion", and severe cases to boot. Israeli doctors characterized the resultant chest x-rays of victims suffering such contusion with the description "butterfly pattern" to teach other doctors to recognize it, but the term also illustrates the extent and severity of the damage. Contrast that to what few reports were written up about the NY event for journals: A firefighter with a single burst eardrum, a rescue worker with the same, etc. While there's no single study examining the nature and extent of barotrauma after 9/11, that in and of itself is telling when you take into consideration the articles you easily find in Google Scholar on Israel's and Spain's events.

Now to be honest, there are characterizations of injuries which may in the end have indeed been barotrauma. You can read that post from T.A.M. I linked above for reasons why they could have been missed, but if you look at an article like this one:
... you'll see some descriptions of pulminary distress, eye injuries, etc. that may indeed have been caused by blast effects itself. So to be honest and above board, there may indeed be cases there. But again, I'm struck by the utter lack of writeups on this, and the relative abundance (Emphasis: "relative"; it's not like there are hundreds of papers) of studies specifically mentioning and studying barotraumatic injuried induced by bomb blasts (One example: Link). Why is there such a lack? We can reason out the answer to that.

Does this disprove explosives? By itself, no; it's not strong enough to stand on it's own. But in conjunction with other lines of evidence - the lack of explosives remains in the debris, the lack of explosions in the video recordings, the lack of reaction from the K9-units combing the debris, the lack of reports from the NYPD Crime Scene Unit investigators, etc. - it's very telling.

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And not to belabor this, but: As yet another point that's relevant to what you wrote, I also invoke Pasquale Buzzelli, a survivor from Stairwell B in the North Tower. As I've said before, if you trace where he was at when the towers collapsed on him and note the proximity of the stairwells on those floors to the core columns, then you have to ask why wasn't he taken out by the supposed explosives? Don't tell me that the wall between him and the column was that strong. Anyway, you see my point in this, right? It's yet another instance of a real world detail disproving the explosives charge truthers put forth.
 
Premature detonation perhaps. I take their 9/11 statements at face value although I'm skeptical about both of them because they both changed their stories. You may take them any way you like.

Mike Catalano debunks any explosions in WTC7 prior to the collapse of the Towers.
 

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