Split Thread 7WTC - controlled demolition or fire and damage induced collapse?

It does not contradict FFA, it ignores it.


Please show why they shouldn't? List all assumptions made and show working.


or did you just mean that you "thought" they shouldn't ignore it based on what you "imagine" a building collapse "should" look like but since you are completely unequipped for having an opinion of any value why should NIST care less what you think?
 
Give it up. You are not an CD expert and you have no idea what options were available.
You jump between 130db and hush-a-boom as if there was nothing in between. :rolleyes:

ETA: In order to conform with the laws of physics, all the supporting structure on 7 to 8 floors had to be REMOVED for FFA to occur. Come up with another explanation of accept that the only possibility is explosives.

Actually you do require that all of the columns be severed and pushed out of line. However in order to fully satisfy Chris's contention that the columns are never impacting each other in anyway not only do they have to be severed and pushed out of line but they have to be severed at the ceiling and floor level at each storey and the section of column pushed horizontal. THRE charges per column on 7-8 floors.

As soon as Chris states that if a column is sufficiently pushed out of line but that it need not be fully removed he enters into the same situation that NIST describes with the lower level columns being buckled and rotated out of line.
Otherwise we have hundreds or thousands of explosives that either cut heavy columns or move heavy columns all simultaneously.
ALL of these explosives will require very high velocity gas expansion which absolutly would create a very loud boom. You can increase the temperature of those gasses and the rate of expansion by including nano-particulate thermitic materials but the result is still a very big boom(actually a greater boom per quantity of explosive material)
 
So now we're back to the "you can hear them, but magically, the microphone cannot" meme.

Did Ashley hear an explosion or not? If she heard an explosion, it would be clearly audible on the microphone. It wasn't audible on the microphone, so what can we assume?


She said "this is it" because they knew it was likely to collapse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8950hcKZXw

IF there were explosions of great enough force to cause WTC 7 to collapse then YES, that mic would have picked them up and you would hear them a little AFTER Ashleigh turns.
She seems to have turned because she has SEEN the movement of the several storey high dust cloud in her peripheral vision, or the excited movement of the people to her left who ARE looking towards WTC 7.

BTW and OMG the MSNBC studio claims that WTC 7 was a "40 storey" building!!!
MM, Chris, what nefarious reason was there to provide this obvious bit of disinformation??
 
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Actually you do require that all of the columns be severed and pushed out of line. However in order to fully satisfy Chris's contention that the columns are never impacting each other in anyway not only do they have to be severed and pushed out of line but they have to be severed at the ceiling and floor level at each storey and the section of column pushed horizontal. THREE charges per column on 7-8 floors.

Minor quibble -- make that 5 per column. Directional cutter charges operate in pairs on "I" section steel, so 2 at the top, 2 at the bottom and one to do the rapid toppling.

8 floors of (about) 80 columns (Chris says we must include exterior columns) x 5 charges per column = 3,200 high explosive charges to do the job according to Chris.

The last bit is the real hoot. It's his theory (which is his).
 
I guess you missed this:
a free fall time would be an object that has no structural components below it . . . there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case.
A building cannot fall at free fall acceleration and crush structural steel at the same time. The only way to get a building to fall at free fall acceleration is to remove all the supporting structure simultaneously with explosives.

Yeah, yeah…you said all that crap already. But where is the evidence? Would it help if I ask nicely? Like “pretty please”? Just a little evidence? You know, like, maybe a receipt from the black ops team that purchased the 200,000 lbs of C4, or thermite, or dynamite, or whatever the hell it is you think was detonated to vaporize 7 or 8 floors of a building…very quietly.

It was overbuilt to allow for large parts of floors to be removed.
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/19/r...uilding-within-building-cost-200-million.html

This little article you provided seems to be a great big ol’ contradiction in what you’re trying to sell. I shall quote the article:

NY Times Article said:
Much of the new electrical, air-conditioning and mechanical equipment will serve three double-height trading floors. To create the extra height, workers are removing most of three existing floors, using jackhammers to demolish concrete slabs and torches to remove steel decking and girders beneath the concrete.

That creates a lot of open area for floors to fall during a collapse, no? Seems that your FFA theory just got another hole punched, seeing that FFA can be achieved when there’s missing floors that can’t slow it down and the extra large distance for a mass to built up speed. We’re only talking high school physics here, Chris. Are you following so far?

Oh, and this:
NY Times Article said:
workers using a roof crane can hoist nine diesel generators onto the tower's fifth floor, where they will become the core of a back-up power station.

That’s quite a number. Nine generators on the fifth floor. That’s a lot of space and a lot of diesel fuel. You don’t find this rather large fuel supply and numerous ignition points as suspicious? Maybe the thermite crews were careful on that floor? I mean, burning diesel fuel across a large area inside a building isn’t such a big deal, right?

You are behind the times. In the final report NIST stated that the debris damage had little to do with the collapse at the other end of the building. NCSTAR 1A pg xxxvii [pdf pg 39]

I don’t recall saying that it was a major contributor. Nor was this point something I was concerned about. But, all the same, it also cannot be ignored.

The fire that supposedly caused the collapse had gone out over an hour before the collapse. That was also covered earlier in this thread.

I remember reading something to that effect, but I don’t recall seeing any evidence that supports this. I don’t really have my hopes up to see any in the near future either.

Phobah. If you saw the questions then you saw my answer.

Of course I did…it’s the same nonsense you keep repeating. But that doesn’t make it true or evident. Assertions, opinions, and misinterpretations are not evidence.
 
#1 you wouldn't expect to find melted iron in a building that collapsed from fire, a thermite reaction would leave melted iron. So they are not similar.

#2 then why do all the troofer presentations use first responder video of them talking about "Explosions" and "Booms".

Contradictions. But when faced with mounting evidence against one's cause all you have to do is change "9/11 was an inside job" and all is well.

He forgot to put in the sarcasm thing.....The Captain is not a truther. Just FYI.
 
Correct

Silly boy, You just said I don't know and then you ask me to tell you what you know I don't know.

Try holding your breath. :rolleyes:

Then don't try to tell us that there IS something inbetween. There isn't. Really, there isn't.

PS, watch yourself. I've had about enough of you.
 
Non-secretive explosions from inside a building with all its windows removed, are expected to be loud.

How often do you hear sound, any sound, from inside a sealed office building?
A building demolished by a combination of explosives and thermite [WTC7] would have a significantly reduced sound signature.

Few people, and no recording devices on the outside, reported the WTC7 explosions that Barry Jennings witnessed while he was trapped inside.

This classic demolition explosion was recorded in the area of WTC7, but in spite of its inside job significance, was largely ignored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YvrKfWkxdw

You might like to go and re-listen to the Coast to Coast AM Debate- August 21, 2010.
Here is a link to the whole show.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6254919&postcount=493

And afterwards you might enjoy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSBYdRRuLxI


MM

How often does an explosive capable of producing 130+ db go off in an office building? Not very often would be my guess........

PS, a noisy office building MIGHT have 60-70 db.
 
How often do you hear sound, any sound, from inside a sealed office building?

Are you suggesting office buildings are sound proof?

I work in an office building. If I'm outside and co-worker is tapping on a window 4 floors up to get someone's attention, you can hear it. That's just a tap.

In reverse, we can hear loud noises from outside...emergency vehicles, large trucks, airplanes, thunder...

What makes you think you wouldn't hear a detonation of demolition charges from the outside?

Even if we pretend, for a second, that a detonation wouldn't blow out every window in WTC7 and every other building within in a 2 block radius, you would still hear it with windows closed.
 
Non-secretive explosions from inside a building with all its windows removed, are expected to be loud.

How often do you hear sound, any sound, from inside a sealed office building?

Every time a bomb goes off in one.

That would be the 1993 WTC bombing. It was in a sub-sub basement of the North tower and it was heard all up both towers and for blocks around on street level.
 
Denial

A large number of first responders were trained to recognize the effects of explosives and saw nothing
Assumption
Assumption

Source: Bomb Squad - A Year Inside the Nation's Most Exclusive Police Unit by Richard Esposito and Ted Gerstein

Quote:]
the NYC bomb squad dogs smelled nothing

Source? The source posted before was an anonymous poster. That is worthless. Is there a document or a few verifiable news reports with names dates and places?
Denial[/QUOTE]


Source: Bomb Squad - A Year Inside the Nation's Most Exclusive Police Unit by Richard Esposito and Ted Gerstein


Quote:
No eyewitnesses have joined the "Truth Movement".
Denial


Then you can name one eyewitness to WTC that has joined the "Truth Movement."
 
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Based on your reasoning jaydeehess, it stands to reason that the reverse is also possible.

You accept as plausible that the sounds of building breakdowns from WTC 3,4,5,6 & 7, could easily be mistaken as explosive booms.

By that argument, explosive booms could just as easily have been dismissed as being the sounds of building breakdowns from WTC 3,4,5,6 & 7.

MM

Why did none of the demolition experts a few hundred feet from WTC7 when it collapsed agree? They heard nothing.
 
How often does an explosive capable of producing 130+ db go off in an office building?

You pre-suppose the NIST hypothetical blast scenario is the only plausible explanation for a controlled demolition of WTC7 which has any validity.

I have to wonder what the Japanese concluded in terms of conventional explosives immediately following the bombing of Hiroshima?

No doubt they based all their thinking on conventional munitions as well.

The whole Official Conspiracy Theory has now been whittled down to a pathetic;
gee it could not have been an inside job because we don't have proof of the boom sounds we expected.

As long as the technology employed is kept secret, OCTers will translate what happened only in terms of what is publicly unclassified.

Much like how the indians reacted to the white man's "fire sticks".

For OCTers, ignorance is truly bliss.

MM
 
sabretooth47 said:
"Are you suggesting office buildings are sound proof?"
No.

I'm saying that they suppress a great deal of sound.

Barry Jennings heard explosions in WTC7.

Barry Jennings and Mr. Hess both witnessed a 6th floor stairwell blocking explosion,
originating lower in WTC7 which prevented their immediate escape.

Most or all of the 6th floor windows were intact at that time.

No one outside of WTC7, as far as I know, claimed to have heard the frequent internal WTC7 explosions
which Barry Jennings claimed he heard throughout his period of entrapment.

The fact is, there were lots of eyewitness reports about explosions.

Reports which are conveniently dismissed because of a bogus requirement that audio recordings should have
captured them, or that not everyone in the vicinity recalls hearing them.

MM
 

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