7 Ways You're Hurting Your Daughter's Future

[Modified]

It is interesting that #5, which affects men just as much as women, only gets noticed as a problem for women .

If you mean that my sister should have been mowing the lawn instead of me when we were kids, then I agree.

 

[Hokulele Mom]

Hmm..... Did I or din't I? Ask Hokulele.

H Mom

 

[marplots]

Being a housewife and homemaker is an important role, and shouldn't be looked down upon. However, not all girls want to grow up and do this, so I think it might be important to give them the tools to do whatever they want.

Also, you don't need gender roles to become a house wife, just as a boy can grow up to be a stay at home dad without them.

Perhaps the troubling thing, and the thing that is changing in society, is the existence of gender roles themselves, not whether or not someone is raised with particular traits.

For example, I'd claim that the role of physician as an authoritarian, overbearing expert, has changed more toward that of nurturing caregiver. We can change the value of the hands dealt rather than change the cards in the hand.

Not so much that women need to adopt a different mindset so much as society needs to accept that roles are themselves malleable. Isn't that what's happening?

Has the answer changed yet to the riddle, "This man's father is my father's son," to include, "You're his aunt" ?

 

[Careyp74]

Perhaps the troubling thing, and the thing that is changing in society, is the existence of gender roles themselves, not whether or not someone is raised with particular traits.

I got the feeling that it was the gender roles themselves that was at the heart of the article.

For example, I'd claim that the role of physician as an authoritarian, overbearing expert, has changed more toward that of nurturing caregiver. We can change the value of the hands dealt rather than change the cards in the hand.

Not so much that women need to adopt a different mindset so much as society needs to accept that roles are themselves malleable. Isn't that what's happening?

I don't know if you are meaning this, but it sounds like you are saying that women shouldn't change the way they are to get ahead, society should accept them and allow them to get ahead, one way, by changing the roles in society. If that is the case, I can agree with that. If that is not what you are saying, then I came up with it all on my own and take possession of it.

Has the answer changed yet to the riddle, "This man's father is my father's son," to include, "You're his aunt" ?

I got through the second paragraph of your post when the riddle of the doctor not being able to perfom surgery on the son came to mind.

 

[cwalner]

I really don't think so. My brother and sister-in-law raise my neices with a lot of the list as part of it. However, this is also a family where my SIL is the breadwinner and my brother is a stay-at-home dad.

Even before he left his job to be a full time dad, I had an interesting conversation with my eldest neice (she was about 3-4) at the time. She was explaining how my brother was working in their bedroom, because it was the only room he could connect his computer (it was the study before they were born, so probably had the internet connection). I said to her 'Your Daddy works hard doesn't he?' After about a half minute of thought, her response was 'Mommy works harder.'

I think that they will be just fine.

 

[Jono]

Well, in the Westboro situation, we have kids that are holding up signs that speak out against gays and soldiers. This to me, at first glance, would be because they are only following the indoctrination by their parents into these beliefs.

Yes, that is probably why they are holding up signs as such. Kids are, at that age, notably respondent to peer-pressure of comformity. But it has little and does little to change their personality traits. Holding up a sign because your family and friends does, is not one of those.

says that these children have no chance of growing up affected by what their parents are forcing them into. The sarcasm is the opposition into believing this, but I am willing to at least give hope that it is true.

It's said within the context of personality traits, not temporary-affect signs of peer pressure et al. Ergo, the points in the OP does not have any long-term effect on ones personality into adulthood, therefore they would not have any notable impact on the given daughter's future at all. And, for me, this thread only reaffirms what Pinker especially said about this recognition:

"It's amazing that few people know about this finding, and few people understand it even when it's spelled out. It runs so counter to our deeply ingrained folk-theory of child-rearing that it's very difficult for people to accept that it's even a logical possibility as opposed to being self-evidently false."

 

[marplots]

I don't know if you are meaning this, but it sounds like you are saying that women shouldn't change the way they are to get ahead, society should accept them and allow them to get ahead, one way, by changing the roles in society. If that is the case, I can agree with that. If that is not what you are saying, then I came up with it all on my own and take possession of it.

We agree completely. And I'll hold up those cultures with female roles that have nothing to do with how you raise your kid. Having breasts in some countries means you are automatically slotted into a particular sub-set of possibilities. Arguably, if I raise my daughter without the skills to be a woman in Iran, she's going to have a worse time of it than not.

In my view, we set expectations based on how we perceive the culture around us. As culture changes (and I think it is in the US), these expectations change as well, almost without trying.

 

[Jono]

I checked a few of the sources that, apart from himself, Pinker uses for this:

"Adoption Results for Self-reported Personality: Evidence for Nonadditive Genetic Effects?" (Plomin, Robert, Robin Corley, Avshalom Caspi, David W. Fulker, John DeFries, -98)
"A Temperament Theory of Personality Development" (Arnold Buss, Robert Plomin).
"Personality Resemblance among Adolescents and Their Parents in Biologically Related and Adoptive Families" (Scarr, Sandra, Patricia L. Webber, Richard A. Weinberg, Michele A. Wittig.)
"Psychobiology of Personality" (Marvin Zuckerman, Cambridge -91)
"Developmental Genetic Studies of Adult Personality" (Pogue-Geile, Michael F., and Richard J. Rose. -85)
"Molecular Genetics and the Human Personality" (collection of articles, edited by Benjamin, Belmaker och Ebstein).

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

8. You neglect to teach her how to cook and clean for her future husband.

 

[abaddon]

Not an expert, but since I have two, I'll bite.

For context, to be 10 and 7 in a couple of weeks.

1. You teach her to be polite and quiet.

Polite, sure. Every parent should try to do that.
Quiet? I find that to be a function of personality. Daughter of Abaddon the Elder is the life and soul of the party, equally able to interact with adults and kids.
Daughter of Abaddon the younger is an introvert, typically found surgically attached to the Leg of Abaddon.

2. You buy her gender-specific toys.

And why not. They get lots of toys, and some are gender specific, some are not.
I suspect this is generally true.

3. You tell her she’s pretty … to the exclusion of everything else.
Daughter of Abaddon the Elder has an astonishing ability on the piano to figure out how to play tunes she may have only heard once. Beats me how.
Daughter of Abaddon the Younger, while quiet and introvert, has an astonishing ability to wheel out an incredibly incisive observation of any situation. You just have to be patient.

Hey, I could make a shopping list here of stuff my kids do.

4. You indoctrinate her into the princess cult.
Hmm. Partially agree. However, one must realise that the girls go through the "pink phase" at about 6/7 years old.
Daughter of Abaddon the Elder has moved beyond that, and will have nothing further to do with it. The question "Is that pink?" now means that whatever it might be that you bought for her will now be summarily rejected.

Daughter of Abaddon the Younger is still pink.

5. You give Dad all the physical tasks around the house.

All I can say is mine cannot wait to muck in with whatever task is at hand.

6. You only let her spend time with other girls.

This one puzzles me. I am unsure how one would achieve this odd task.

7. You criticize your own body, and/or other women’s bodies.
Oprah, where are you?
This is just stupid.

 

[marplots]

I don't buy it, not really. The way you were reared at home does little to your personality traits, and even then less so influence of that the older you get.

Excellent post, thank you.

I want to point out that while personality traits (whatever that may mean specifically) may be inborn, the application of those traits can be, and is, influenced by parents. This is what can lead to long term change, if nothing else.

I could, for example, prevent my child from using his dominant left hand. She would then learn to use her right hand, even though genetically she was left-handed. I can also limit opportunities to apply a particular trait so that you might expect an outgoing pygmy to be different than his clone raised in New York or his other clone raised in Japan.

This is at least partly what gender roles are about -- available opportunities and expectations. You don't have to have a personality switch to keep someone from being a stay-at-home mother. There are plenty of examples of very poor mothering from those adopting a role for which they are unsuited.

It's the collision between innate gifts, talents and interests, and the available roles that sets up the conflict and the "psychological harm." If you teach me that the only good female role is a nurturing one, what else am I to think when my personality doesn't fit? I think I'm mismade and flawed.

One of the best examples comes by way of the suicidal homosexual -- driven to the brink because of pressure to conform. How does that fit Pinker's description when the organism in question wants to kill itself?

 

[bpesta22]

How do we know these are gender roles dictated by society versus just a manifestation of biology and human sexuality?

 

[cwalner]

It's the collision between innate gifts, talents and interests, and the available roles that sets up the conflict and the "psychological harm." If you teach me that the only good female role is a nurturing one, what else am I to think when my personality doesn't fit? I think I'm mismade and flawed.

For me, this became very clear when I was in high school. I was studying with a friend (she female, me male) for a math class. We were both in pre-calculus, which at the time was the highest level math offered to our grade level (Sophmore IIRC).

My friend was struggling with the material and at one point she threw up her hands and said in an exasperated voice 'I can't do this. I'm just not good at math'. I was surprised at how quickly I became a feminist in that moment. Needless to say I had some very harsh words with my friend while explaining that I simply would not accept that somebody in an advanced math class for her grade level was 'not good in math'.

The fact that somebody who I cared about had such a dystopic vision of herself due to gender stereotypes had just flat out pissed me off.

In short, I have no problem telling little girls that they are beautiful princesses, because every little girl is in her parents eyes. Its just that you have to also tell them that they can do whatever they want in life, and they will always be your beautiful princess, no matter what.

 

[Ausmerican]

I have the one in my avatar. She is five now. I was the stay at home parent for the first two and a half years or so of her life rather than her mother so results may not be typical.

1. You teach her to be polite and quiet.
Still working on polite. Quiet is not in her nature.
2. You buy her gender-specific toys.
Some. She also has Nerf swords, Thors hammer and Captain Americas shield and a deep and abiding love for Batman.
3. You tell her she’s pretty … to the exclusion of everything else.
Actually the phrase 'brave and smart and strong' gets used more than pretty. Also from The Penguins of Madagascar she learned that 'cute & cuddly' is just a tactic to get what you want.
4. You indoctrinate her into the princess cult.
Her mother has somewhat encouraged that. I have merely pointed out that Xena and Wonder Woman are princesses too. And we regularly do battle with the aforementioned Nerf swords.
5. You give Dad all the physical tasks around the house.
As I am Dad, I try to avoid that.
6. You only let her spend time with other girls.
Her two closest friends are boys.
7. You criticize your own body, and/or other women’s bodies.
I am an admirer of womens bodies in general.

 

[Alt+F4]

She also has Nerf swords, Thors hammer and Captain Americas shield and a deep and abiding love for Batman.

Your girl rocks! (But then you already know that)

 

[iknownothing]

Excellent post, thank you.

I want to point out that while personality traits (whatever that may mean specifically) may be inborn, the application of those traits can be, and is, influenced by parents. This is what can lead to long term change, if nothing else.

I could, for example, prevent my child from using his dominant left hand. She would then learn to use her right hand, even though genetically she was left-handed. I can also limit opportunities to apply a particular trait so that you might expect an outgoing pygmy to be different than his clone raised in New York or his other clone raised in Japan.

This is at least partly what gender roles are about -- available opportunities and expectations. You don't have to have a personality switch to keep someone from being a stay-at-home mother. There are plenty of examples of very poor mothering from those adopting a role for which they are unsuited.

It's the collision between innate gifts, talents and interests, and the available roles that sets up the conflict and the "psychological harm." If you teach me that the only good female role is a nurturing one, what else am I to think when my personality doesn't fit? I think I'm mismade and flawed.

One of the best examples comes by way of the suicidal homosexual -- driven to the brink because of pressure to conform. How does that fit Pinker's description when the organism in question wants to kill itself?

Great post!

Also want to add: one inborn personality trait would be the degree to which you want to conform. If you are born to follow the rules, you will take those messages from your parents seriously.

My daughter (5) is very eager to please, shy, nurturing, and generally feminine in every way. I don't see her growing up to be much of a rebel. I think if I indoctrinated her with messages about how she has to be, she would take that to heart. She's also very interested in numbers and math - she is about to start Kindergarten but has already passed most of the K math objectives. She just enjoys math - like, she was helping me make muffins a few days ago, and enjoying talking about the muffin pan and all the ways to add up to 12. (3+3+3+3, 8+4, etc.) I think with her personality, whether she's encouraged or discouraged about math will make a big difference in how far she pursues it.

Other, more defiant kids might pursue something just because their parents discouraged it. So I think how you are raised affects you, but not the same for every person.

 

[Brainster]

My sister was determined to buy her daughter as many toy trucks as she did for her son, and her son as many dolls as she did for her daughter.

Guess what? It didn't work; my niece wasn't interested in the trucks, and my nephew hated dolls.

 

[Careyp74]

And, for me, this thread only reaffirms what Pinker especially said about this recognition:Quote:
"It's amazing that few people know about this finding, and few people understand it even when it's spelled out. It runs so counter to our deeply ingrained folk-theory of child-rearing that it's very difficult for people to accept that it's even a logical possibility as opposed to being self-evidently false."

Ouch. You only gave us a couple of hours to read and take it in, along with critically thinking about it.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

How do we know these are gender roles dictated by society versus just a manifestation of biology and human sexuality?

You could ask Rebecca.

 

[sadhatter]

What do you think of this article?

7 Ways You're Hurting Your Daughter's Future

The 7 ways are:



Are these things really harmful to girls?
I'm not sure they necessarily are.
I'll grant the "to the exclusion of everything else" part of 3, but that's sort of a given for any quality a child might have. I.e., I don't think you should tell a child any one thing "to the exclusion of everything else".

1. You teach her to be polite and quiet.
People should be doing this, to all children. Lazy parents contribute more to the general decline of manners than all 90's grossout humor combined.

2. You buy her gender-specific toys.
Probably because she wants them. If you are telling your daughter she can't have a ninja turtles ( or whatever the kids are playing with these days.) action figure, yeah that is being prickish, but the fact of the matter is , generally girls like girl toys and boys like boy toys. Sure there are exceptions, and if your child is one, encourage it, but the fact that most little girls have a well organized doll collection and most little boys have a haphazard toybox of plastic warriors, guns and swords, is just the way things work out.

Telling your little girl she can't have a "Spend 300 dollars at the spa" Barbie is just as much of a jerk move as saying she can't have a ghostbuster action figure.

3. You tell her she’s pretty … to the exclusion of everything else.
I agree with this one, but what fringe segments of society are doing this? Sure i can see the beauty pageant kid's parents being in this category, but seriously, these people are just ****** to begin with anyway, and need a hell of a lot more instruction than "Stop it".

And this highlights one of the huge problems with articles like this, it acts as if certain far fringe methods of parenting are common, then puffs out it's chest for being so insightful to a modern problem.

4. You indoctrinate her into the princess cult.
Again, boys and girls are different. If you are telling your little girl she can't play baseball , yeah, your a knob, but encouraging her natural tendency to want to be a girl isn't evil. Some folks will want to be a stereotype of their gender, some will want to rebel against the stereotype, and some will prefer being kind of androgynous (Yay me.), not encouraging what your child wants to be is wrong, but these people don't want that, they want to remove one of the options.

5. You give Dad all the physical tasks around the house.
What if mom doesn't want them? Seriously, when i think of physical tasks, i am thinking of the weekend "Well, those driveway stones won't move themselves." kind of things. And seriously, with the amount of a work a housewife ( let alone a working mother.) has to do, do we seriously throw another task upon her just to satisfy some knob who doesn't like folks being anything but androgynous?


6. You only let her spend time with other girls.
Again, good idea, but who is doing this? Who is hiring a bodyguard to off every male before they get within eyeshot of their little girl?

The problem with this statement is it only works when the "Only" is in there, but the "Only" is what rockets it into the absurd.

7. You criticize your own body, and/or other women’s bodies.
Everyone does this, me, my really straight friends, my really gay friends, my female friends, my transvestite friends, every person, regardless of gender, on earth has body issues. If your out of shape, your angry that your out of shape, if your in shape, you are always worried about staying in shape, appearance, regardless of societal pressure, is a huge concern to humans.

But not openly criticizing others in front of your child, pretty sound advice, to complete bellends , seriously, it is probably a great idea not to say "Hey Suzie, see that fat piece of **** over there? Look at her, she is going to die alone because she likes twinkies, HAHA!" , but the folks who have this advanced of a case of cranial rectopathy are in need of a long list of behavior modifications long before this.

This article outlines a trend i really hate. Taking a selection of issues that do suck, but are niche, and only symptoms of other causes, and then acting like they apply broadly, and you just made a great point. ( at the article writers not the op.)