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7 Ways You're Hurting Your Daughter's Future

Puppycow

Penultimate Amazing
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What do you think of this article?

7 Ways You're Hurting Your Daughter's Future

The 7 ways are:

1. You teach her to be polite and quiet.
2. You buy her gender-specific toys.
3. You tell her she’s pretty … to the exclusion of everything else.
4. You indoctrinate her into the princess cult.
5. You give Dad all the physical tasks around the house.
6. You only let her spend time with other girls.
7. You criticize your own body, and/or other women’s bodies.

Are these things really harmful to girls?
I'm not sure they necessarily are.
I'll grant the "to the exclusion of everything else" part of 3, but that's sort of a given for any quality a child might have. I.e., I don't think you should tell a child any one thing "to the exclusion of everything else".
 
What do you think of this article?

7 Ways You're Hurting Your Daughter's Future

The 7 ways are:



Are these things really harmful to girls?
I'm not sure they necessarily are.
I'll grant the "to the exclusion of everything else" part of 3, but that's sort of a given for any quality a child might have. I.e., I don't think you should tell a child any one thing "to the exclusion of everything else".
That's a pretty standard list of how gender roles are shaped, and there are plenty of connections to harmful things later in life... such as rationalizing domestic abuse, body dysmorphia, et al.

Are they always harmful to every child.? No. it isn't a direct causal link.
 
I think #1 is going to be dependent on where you live. Western society very much values assertiveness, and it is sort of the assumed standard behaviour. But that is not universally true.

It is interesting that #5, which affects men just as much as women, only gets noticed as a problem for women :p .
 
I can see all of those as being potentially harmful.

Granted the list makes some assumptions. Such as the idea that you actually are criticizing your own body or other women's bodies. I'm not sure just how many mothers do that.
 
I think #1 is going to be dependent on where you live. Western society very much values assertiveness, and it is sort of the assumed standard behaviour. But that is not universally true.

Try going to South Korea. Complete strangers will openly mock overweight people. Resumes come with photos if you want to teach engrish. I wouldn't be surprised if plastic surgery is more common in Tokyo than Los Angeles.

Economies exposed to tabloids and global media change the measuring stick. I think what matters is who people compare themselves against. It used to be other girls in your family or your village. Now it's the impossible standards of magazines, movies and television.

Anyway, I didn't know you were harming a girl if you taught her to be polite and quiet. All kids should be polite and quiet, at least in public. Left to their own devices, they're walking-talking running, screaming condom commercials.

#3 I have a niece. My father can't help but talk about how cute she is. All the time. Everything she does is cute and beautiful and amazing. She's only 1, so she won't remember it.

#4 She's dressed in pink. Her clothes say things like "Princess" and "Daddy's Little Girl." My evil sister-in-law is the one who buys that crap (Daddy hates that ****).

I'm getting a little sick of hearing about gender prejudice anyway. Just make them self-aware, considerate and interesting. That's all.

Of course the photo in the article uses a cute blonde baby staring out into the distance (patrician lift of the chin). I bet her outfit costs more than my last sports coat. Then again I shop at the Men's Wearhouse. Online. 2 for 1 sales only.
 
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My wife and I didn't do any of those things. One of our daughters is a product design engineer, and the other is an outdoor sports instructor, and they both appear to have really bright futures. If you're prepared to deny the antecedent, I think that proves the point beyond any doubt.

Dave
 
My wife and I didn't do any of those things. One of our daughters is a product design engineer, and the other is an outdoor sports instructor, and they both appear to have really bright futures. If you're prepared to deny the antecedent, I think that proves the point beyond any doubt.

Dave

My daughter is a homemaker, now pregnant. Did I ruin her future? She seems pretty happy.

What were the criteria used to determine harm in the "hurting her future"? Do they become prostitutes or something? (Not to offend any prostitutes, of course.)
 
I think #1 is going to be dependent on where you live. Western society very much values assertiveness, and it is sort of the assumed standard behaviour. But that is not universally true.

It is interesting that #5, which affects men just as much as women, only gets noticed as a problem for women :p .

Remember that the article is specific towards girls. You may be right about it being a problem for both, but this is targeting a specific group.

As far as the article goes, I agree with CR that the list does contain common issues that are said to contribute to gender roles. Whether or not avoiding these will diminish it, I don't think they can support that, but I don't see any harm in doing it. They offer good arguments for the most part.
 
My daughter is a homemaker, now pregnant. Did I ruin her future? She seems pretty happy.

What were the criteria used to determine harm in the "hurting her future"? Do they become prostitutes or something? (Not to offend any prostitutes, of course.)

Being a housewife and homemaker is an important role, and shouldn't be looked down upon. However, not all girls want to grow up and do this, so I think it might be important to give them the tools to do whatever they want.

Also, you don't need gender roles to become a house wife, just as a boy can grow up to be a stay at home dad without them.
 
My wife and I didn't do any of those things. One of our daughters is a product design engineer, and the other is an outdoor sports instructor, and they both appear to have really bright futures. If you're prepared to deny the antecedent, I think that proves the point beyond any doubt.

Dave

Just to be clear, what is it you are saying that you didn't do, the list of 7 items that Puppycow quoted, or proactively avoid them?
 
Granted the list makes some assumptions. Such as the idea that you actually are criticizing your own body or other women's bodies. I'm not sure just how many mothers do that.

Of course they assume that, since not everyone does each item on the list. Perhaps the title could be changed, but I think sensationalism of headlines has been covered enough around here.

BTW, my wife is one of those. Perhaps there is a chance that our son will grow up and criticize women's bodies? Not that important, until it is a prejudice when he is interviewing one for a position.
 
Just to be clear, what is it you are saying that you didn't do, the list of 7 items that Puppycow quoted, or proactively avoid them?

To be honest, neither :p. As it turned out, they're just not the sort of things either of us would ever have done in the first place, so we didn't.

Dave
 
To be honest, neither :p. As it turned out, they're just not the sort of things either of us would ever have done in the first place, so we didn't.

Dave

Ok, well you might not have proactively done anything either way, but perhaps there is a chance that you already sway one way or the other naturally?

What I mean is, my wife and I talk about all the wonderful stuff they tell us to do in the books that we have on loan from the library (don't want to give the impression that we are insane for throwing our money away) and come to find that most of it we already do naturally, but agree that many might not have this intuition.

Perhaps you have the intuition to not create gender roles?
 
Ok, well you might not have proactively done anything either way, but perhaps there is a chance that you already sway one way or the other naturally?

I think that's probably the better part of it. I did, quite consciously, buy my older daughter a Brio train set, but apart from that I think we both had a natural aversion to conditioning anyone to any specific set of roles. And that, I think, is the more general rule; keep your children's options open by default, and you're less likely to cut them off from doing what turns out best for them.

Dave
 
I don't buy it, not really. The way you were reared at home does little to your personality traits, and even then less so influence of that the older you get.

As usual, a few relevant notes from Pinker on the matter:
Pinker: There were also a number of recurring misunderstandings of particular points that some reviewers insisted on having, even though I made every effort to leave nothing to the imagination. One example is the shaping of personality. I said that the most important influence parents have on their children is at the moment of conception. People interpreted that as coming from the discovery that identical twins reared apart are quite similar, which is indeed an interesting finding. But the finding that motivated that claim is that twins or siblings reared apart are no less similar than twins or siblings reared together. It's a separate and logically independent finding: it's not just that you're similar if you're reared apart, but you're no more similar if you're reared together. That is a second finding that many highly intelligent people just cannot grasp - Steven Jones in the New York Review of Books being an example.

the evolutionist: In many ways the book is arguing against the view that our thoughts are socially constructed by how we were socialized as children. Can you say what this view is and why you think it's wrong?

Pinker: Yes, it argues against the view that parents mold or shape their children, that the early years in the home form personality for the rest of one's life:"as the twig is bent so grows the branch." This is unlikely from an evolutionary point of view because the interests of children and the interests of parents only partly overlap. Robert Trivers pointed out 25 years ago that a direct consequence of Mendelian genetics is parent-offspring conflict: a child shares 50% of its genes with each parent and shares 50% of its genes with its siblings, but shares 100% of its genes with itself. Therefore one would expect that parents would, all things being equal, have an interest in treating all of their children equally. But each child values its own interests twice as much as those of his siblings, and this sets up an area of conflict. So you should not expect children to allow themselves to be molded by their parents -- to follow the norms and examples their parents set for them.

And, indeed, one of the deepest discoveries in psychology and behavioral genetics in this century is that there are few if any long-term effects of "shared environment," that is, the environment that siblings have in common when they grow up in a kin family. It's amazing that few people know about this finding, and few people understand it even when it's spelled out. It runs so counter to our deeply ingrained folk-theory of child-rearing that it's very difficult for people to accept that it's even a logical possibility as opposed to being self-evidently false.

It's not that children are unaffected by their parents or environment. It's just that they are information-processors and strategists who tailor their own best responses to the environment they find themselves in; they are not pounded or indoctrinated into shape.

Pinker: The assumption that children are permanently moulded by their upbringing is shared among theories that differ in almost every other way. Psychoanalysis, behaviourism, Marxism, and secular humanistic liberalism all believe to varying degrees that the way we treat children in the first few years is decisive. It's also thought to have political and moral implications, namely that the details of child-rearing will shape the next generation and therefore deserve special attention. This is in large part a good thing. The child-rearing revolution of the 20th century, where we switched from Oliver Twist/Jane Eyre-style tyrannical treatment of children to one in which children are indulged has certainly led to an improvement in human welfare. But it has also led to misplaced priorities and expectations. Parents are routinely blamed for any difference or deviation in the way their children turn out: if the child is schizophrenic it's because the mother conveyed mixed messages; if the child has a language impairment it's because the mother didn't provide enough "motherese" and so on. Not only does it stigmatise mothers but it diverts attention away from the real causes of differences among children.

the evolutionist: I've always thought the standard social science model presents a surprisingly pessimistic view of human nature -- that people are entirely malleable and at the mercy of the rest of society -- compared to the evolutionary psychology view in which people are born high-spec, specialised problem-solvers just waiting to spring into action.

Pinker: It's pessimistic in the sense that it's fatalistic, even though it's touted as the alternative to the fatalistic view that everything's determined by our genes. It's fatalistic because it says that the first few years of life set the course for the person's entire existence, which I think is false. I personally find the alternative comforting: the first few years don't put you on trolley tracks that you travel the rest of your life. The child-moulding theory has also led, ironically, to a perverse view of child rearing. Judith Rich Harris is coming out with a book called The Nurture Assumption which argues that parents don't influence the long-term fates of their children; peers do. The reaction she often gets is, "So are you saying it doesn't matter how I treat my child?" She points out that this is like someone learning that you can't change the personality of your spouse and asking, "So are you saying that it doesn't matter how you treat my spouse?" People seem to think that the only reason to be nice to children is that it will mold their character as adults in the future -- as opposed to the common-sense idea that you should be nice to people because it makes life better for them in the present. Child rearing has become a technological matter of which practices grow the best children, as opposed to a human relationship in which the happiness of the child (during childhood) is determined by how the child is treated. She has a wonderful quote: "We may not control our children's tomorrows, but we surely control their todays, and we have the capacity to make them very, very miserable."

I couldn't agree more, and perhaps that should worry me?
 
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I don't buy it, not really. The way you were reared at home does little to your personality traits, and even then less so influence of that the older you get.

source? Nevermind.

Well that is interesting. I always wondered what motivated those children at the Westboro Baptist Church to hold up those signs against gays and soldiers. It is good to know that they are following their own agenda, and not their parent's.
 
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source? Nevermind.

Well that is interesting. I always wondered what motivated those children at the Westboro Baptist Church to hold up those signs against gays and soldiers. It is good to know that they are following their own agenda, and not their parent's.

I don't understand the argument inherent in your sarcasm. It seems as if you're confusing personality traits with temporary-affect peer pressure.
 
I don't understand the argument inherent in your sarcasm. It seems as if you're confusing personality traits with temporary-affect peer pressure.

Well, in the Westboro situation, we have kids that are holding up signs that speak out against gays and soldiers. This to me, at first glance, would be because they are only following the indoctrination by their parents into these beliefs.

Your quoted conversation, specifically this part:

"And, indeed, one of the deepest discoveries in psychology and behavioral genetics in this century is that there are few if any long-term effects of "shared environment," that is, the environment that siblings have in common when they grow up in a kin family. It's amazing that few people know about this finding, and few people understand it even when it's spelled out. It runs so counter to our deeply ingrained folk-theory of child-rearing that it's very difficult for people to accept that it's even a logical possibility as opposed to being self-evidently false.

It's not that children are unaffected by their parents or environment. It's just that they are information-processors and strategists who tailor their own best responses to the environment they find themselves in; they are not pounded or indoctrinated into shape. "

says that these children have no chance of growing up affected by what their parents are forcing them into. The sarcasm is the opposition into believing this, but I am willing to at least give hope that it is true.
 
That's weird, Careyp74, I had the same exact thought.

But I also think that they've been members of a cult from the day of their birth (literally), and furthermore, since they're kids, they have have little say on how they get to spend their free time when their folks have the power to put signs in their hand, and make them march.

Plus, if the kids were that 'malleable', then we would expect all of them as adults to follow the way of Fred, instead of some of them splitting from the church/family as soon as they reached adulthood.
 
That's weird, Careyp74, I had the same exact thought.

But I also think that they've been members of a cult from the day of their birth (literally), and furthermore, since they're kids, they have have little say on how they get to spend their free time when their folks have the power to put signs in their hand, and make them march.

Plus, if the kids were that 'malleable', then we would expect all of them as adults to follow the way of Fred, instead of some of them splitting from the church/family as soon as they reached adulthood.

Well, I see a lot of people who start out a Christians, me included, that chose their own path. I also was able to shed most of the bad influence my parents had on me as a kid.

I don't think it is black or white, all kids being one way, but if there are studies with statistics, I would entertain reading them.
 

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