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4th Richard Gage-Dave Thomas Debate, June 28th 2012

George152 said:
Any chance that Ace Elevator builders will take exception and sue Gage ?
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Doubt it. If memory serves they filed for bankruptcy in 2004. I'm sure some of the principle are still involved in this business but, I doubt they know Gage (or the "truthers") even exist.
 
"Several Tons of Thermite---- It's a big job."

- Richard Gage in reference to WTC-7
 
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DGM said:
Listening now.

It's clear the moderator is not buying it. Gage is coming off like presenting a well rehearsed sales speech.

ETA: Dave just asked my question about no AIA members showing up at their own house. Gage panics.

Nice job Dave, I thought he was going to trip over his tongue trying to spin his response.

:rolleyes:
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OMG... that was awesome!
 
About 3/4 thru the debate, I'm making notes on Gage's numerous false statements and outright lies. One such lie, followed by a completely false statement was this:
'The Eastern Penthouse collapses a couple of seconds before the overall collapse. (That's a blatant LIE) 'That's not indicative of an internal collapse.' (In fact the opposite is true - it is indeed very good evidence of an internal collapse. Gage's statement is false)

So far Dave doing a very good job in articulating his points and rebutting the snake-oil sales pitch of Richard Gage. I loved the zinger regarding how many architects had attended the June presentation (0). Gage danced around it like a bug under a magnifying glass in the sun.... priceless. IMO Gage didn't sound particularly confident, barking out the same tired talking points like a broken record. He seemed very poorly informed of Jim Millette's study and was not able to address Dave's comments competently.

Thank goodness Gage is the best huckster out there, although Judy Wood isn't far behind as she enthralls her audiences with pseudo-scientific woo and creepy thought processes.
This is the best and brightest pushing 9/11 Truth myths? Oh dear....
 
I doubt anyone else will highlight the following minor issues, so, as is my wont, I will.

From the initial 6 minute talk from DaveThomasNMSR...

  • Only a portion of the North side of the core remained standing momentarily, with the highest "spire" ~20 storeys below the initiation zone.
  • Millions and millions of tons ? Each full tower mass was ~261,000,000 Kg.
  • Faster and faster ? Higher and higher speeds ? 100 mph ? Acceleration about 1/3 at the end ? No. The traversal rate of the primary crush front reached approximately linear velocity about 5s after release. and continued to be such.
  • 1515 Flagler also attained ~FFA for portions of the building, with similar displacement/time profile to the NW corner of WTC 7.

Interesting to hear >g mentioned, but still think early motion should have been discussed.
 
Millions and millions of lbs, yes. Tons, no. Good catch.

Also I think Dave mentioned 1500 tons of thermite to bring down the radio tower in Chicago. Shouldn't it be 1500 lbs?
 
alienentity said:
Millions and millions of lbs, yes. Tons, no. Good catch.

Also I think Dave mentioned 1500 tons of thermite to bring down the radio tower in Chicago. Shouldn't it be 1500 lbs?
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Yeah, I think I heard myself goofing up on 'tons'. Didn't catch tons - to - pounds, though - good one. I blame the heat of battle, & trying to keep up with what Gage was coming up with next, even while trying to formulate a response to the stuff he'd already said.

He went over-the-top with the ad hominem accusations of malicious motivation on my part. He hasn't been as blatant in the past. Gage has sunk to a new low, IMO.

Cheers, Dave
 
femr2 said:
I doubt anyone else will highlight the following minor issues, so, as is my wont, I will.

From the initial 6 minute talk from DaveThomasNMSR...

  • Only a portion of the North side of the core remained standing momentarily, with the highest "spire" ~20 storeys below the initiation zone.
  • Millions and millions of tons ? Each full tower mass was ~261,000,000 Kg.
  • Faster and faster ? Higher and higher speeds ? 100 mph ? Acceleration about 1/3 at the end ? No. The traversal rate of the primary crush front reached approximately linear velocity about 5s after release. and continued to be such.
  • 1515 Flagler also attained ~FFA for portions of the building, with similar displacement/time profile to the NW corner of WTC 7.

Interesting to hear >g mentioned, but still think early motion should have been discussed.
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The 100 mph speeds and 1/3 g acceleration at the end are results of my one-D model (described in three parts, A, B, and C). Considering the simplicity of my model, they compare well to Bazant's more detailed results.

Where are the results for linear velocity > 5s after release?

I'll have to check out the CD/free-fall aspect of the Flagler bldg. demo.

Cheers, Dave
 
Could the exchange about no AIA members showing up be a death blow to Gage and his cronies?

I mean, they're on life support now, aren't they?
 
DaveThomasNMSR said:
The 100 mph speeds and 1/3 g acceleration at the end are results of my one-D model (described in three parts, A, B, and C). Considering the simplicity of my model, they compare well to Bazant's more detailed results.
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I have a simple 1D asynchronous impact model which exhibits the linear traversal...
417385938.png


ETA: Also, old discussions with David Benson (second B of BLGB) indicate that their model also exhibited linear traversal rate.

Where are the results for linear velocity > 5s after release?
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within http://the911forum.freeforums.org/wtc1-debris-ejecta-traversal-rate-linear-terminal-velocity-t237.html (from 2009)

I'll have to check out the CD/free-fall aspect of the Flagler bldg. demo.
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In the forum somewhere. Can dig out.

898155405.png


44753876.jpg
 
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DaveThomasNMSR said:
Yeah, I think I heard myself goofing up on 'tons'. Didn't catch tons - to - pounds, though - good one. I blame the heat of battle, & trying to keep up with what Gage was coming up with next, even while trying to formulate a response to the stuff he'd already said.

He went over-the-top with the ad hominem accusations of malicious motivation on my part. He hasn't been as blatant in the past. Gage has sunk to a new low, IMO.

Cheers, Dave
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Yah, Gage's personal attack was a bit shocking. It's a product of his desperation to discredit you and not being able to do so with scientific evidence, IMO. I was also surprised by his reliance on false information and deception, but I suppose it's to be expected. More later

Must get back to work :)
 
DaveThomasNMSR: You were good and you won, thanks:cool:
I was not fully concentrated, but I noticed that Gage accused you to be a classical "payed gubrmint agent" or so:D
Fact is that Gage did not forget to add an ad of his payed Experts Speak Out Circus (and perhaps of his web site with some payed content) at the end of the debate, whereas we in JREF are not selling any stuff and make no money on this tragedy. Quite contrary, we even pay some bucks for a real "new 911 investigation" (together with some honest truthers), at least in the case of red-gray chips study.

Otherwise, as I remember, Gage repeated the same old flagrant nonsenses (like e.g. "red-gray chips perfectly match the composition of thermites or superthemites") etc. Do you have some idea how many people listened?
 
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