3 students die after principal hypnotizes them

Skeptic Ginger said:
As in, the two people I saw under hypnosis were clearly not faking it.

It's one thing to say people think they saw something there is no evidence for, and conclude they were misinterpreting what they saw.

It's quite another to observe something there is evidence for (documented brain activity changes), and to be offered a single alternative explanation that itself is much less credible.

I observed an unmistakable incident of two people under hypnosis.
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Perhaps I am not making myself clear. Could you provide a definition of real hypnosis? Perhaps even a scientific definition?
 
Whether chiropracty is real or not, surely both sides of that question can agree a school principal shouldn't be doing it to students. Ditto ear massage, snake handling, moxibustion, or past life regression. Why would hypnosis be any different?
 
Caper said:
When I was in grade 7 there was a hypnotist show at our school. Same deal 20 or 30 people went on stage, including me. About 20 of us stayed under, including me. I faked the whole god dam thing. It was horrible. I had to spend like an hour on stage pretending to be hypnotized. Doing all this stupid crap that just wouldn't end.
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Why?

And just because you wanted to be one of the guys does that mean everyone on stage was doing the same?
 
TragicMonkey said:
Whether chiropracty is real or not, surely both sides of that question can agree a school principal shouldn't be doing it to students. Ditto ear massage, snake handling, moxibustion, or past life regression. Why would hypnosis be any different?
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That's a separate issue than if the principal's use of hypnosis caused three deaths.


Again, I ask the people who believe in the power of hypnosis to ask themselves why such a powerful tool is only used as a last resort for cigarette quitting and weight loss wishers. Why isn't hypnotherapy more popular than cognitive therapy? Why aren't semi-experienced stage hypnotists having more sex?
 
Varanid said:
Wow. You know this is nonsense.

What is a "valid observer"? If it is easier, you can tell me what an "invalid observer" is.

And you can't just shift the burden of proof. You are the one that made the extraordinary claim; Scrut challenged your claim. You know how this works...
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Yes but it happened to me, its different!

This is where I see this going.
 
Senex said:
Again, I ask the people who believe in the power of hypnosis to ask themselves why such a powerful tool is only used as a last resort for cigarette quitting and weight loss wishers. Why isn't hypnotherapy more popular than cognitive therapy? Why aren't semi-experienced stage hypnotists having more sex?
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Ditto. A single visit to a hypnotherapist would be able to turn each of us into a Renaissance Man. Regardless of your initial sexual leanings.
 
hmmmm.... business model: I wonder if the suggestion 'suggestion' includes : 1) squawk like a chicken 2) quit smoking 3) this session made you feel better about yourself, you'll want to come back, and send all your friends too.
 
mgidm86 said:
Remember, this case resulted in a settlement. Kenney was not found guilty in a court of law. The school district caved and paid a relatively small settlement. It would have been interesting to see how a judge or jury would have decided.
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He was found guilty. The article mentions it ever-so-briefly, but he was apparently earlier found guilty of "practicing hypnosis without a license", which evidently is against the law in this place, and was sentenced to a year's probation or thereabouts.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Why?

And just because you wanted to be one of the guys does that mean everyone on stage was doing the same?
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does it mean they were not?

remember, stage hypnotists do the 'suggestibility test' first as far as I know.

what does suggestibility even mean?
I suggest it is picking out the people who are more likely to go along with the whole hypnotised routine in the first place.
EDIT:
also re the below
Skeptic Ginger said:
[off topic, briefly, no need to make a thread of it]

Hypnosis found to alter the brain: Subjects see color where none exists

Brain states and hypnosis research

Mind you this has nothing to do with the claims one can recover lost memories under hypnosis. That claim has been discredited.

I rest my case. [/off topic post]
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Have they tried that on people who don't accept hypnosis as real, or do you have to believe in it first?
I would test that first.

quote from article
Researchers separately hypnotized eight people as they lay in a scanning machine that recorded activity in their brains.
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what? is it really that easy?

So I'm in a scanning machine and someone can come along and hypnotise me as I lay there?
what about all the scanning machine potential hypnotees that are not 'suggestible' enough to be hypnotised, or don't accept it as real at all?

why aren't they mentioned? or are they filtered out so its only hypnotist believers that take part? any test that does that fails at the first hurdle.

BS it looks like to me.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
The fact there are charlatans and entertainers mixed in with the actual clinical phenomena of hypnosis may be clouding your picture.
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It's possible; however, I provided a set of reasonable and scientific criteria by which "Real" hypnotists can distinguish themselves from the "charlatans". Until they make some effort to do so, it's not my job to pretend an objective distinction exists.
 
p0lka said:
does it mean they were not?

remember, stage hypnotists do the 'suggestibility test' first as far as I know.

what does suggestibility even mean?
I suggest it is picking out the people who are more likely to go along with the whole hypnotised routine in the first place.
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Not only that, but the whole thing about how it simply doesn't "work" on a lot of people is also a red flag. Not the fact that it doesn't work all by itself - after all, some chemical drugs have little or no effect in different patients - but rather that simply not wanting to be hypnotized is often the deciding factor.

Aspirin works on me, whether I want it to or not. If a drug didn't work on me, it still wouldn't even if I hoped really hard that it would. Contrarily, I can resolve that "I cannot be hypnotized", and it will magically, just like that, be true.
 
beren said:
Please link to the science of your silly anecdote.

I assume a clinician was measuring brainwaves that day, so where is the evidence?...
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Please pay attention to what I claimed.

I observed. (Unless you want to discount all scientific evidence that involves observation. :rolleyes:)
The alternative explanations are less likely.
And there is now more than sufficient evidence documenting the existence of an altered state when a person is under hypnosis.


It's annoying when people prefer to keep putting their foot in their mouth asking for someone else to prove a claim where there is all kinds of research validating it. I prefer to check to see if my position is still valid when someone challenges it before I keep sticking my neck further and further out. But apparently some of you prefer to hold on to old concepts.

I am reminded of H-pylori, cholera from the Broad St pump, and plate tectonics, all evidence based science that took years from the time the evidence was put forth until scientists convinced of old conclusions, finally looked at the existing evidence.

What is controversial is hypnotherapy, and recovery of memories. What is no longer controversial to people actually looking at the current body of research is the fact a hypnotic state exists and it is a unique state of consciousness. There is now current research ongoing to see if said hypnosis has any clinical value. But that is a separate issue from whether or not a hypnotic state of consciousness exists and can be induced, more easily in some people than in others.


The Existence of a Hypnotic State Revealed by Eye Movements
We present a detailed case study of a highly hypnotizable subject who reliably shows a range of changes in both automatic and volitional eye movements when given a hypnotic induction. These changes correspond well with the phenomenon referred to as the “trance stare” in the hypnosis literature. Our results show that this ‘trance stare’ is associated with large and objective changes in the optokinetic reflex, the pupillary reflex and programming a saccade to a single target. Control subjects could not imitate these changes voluntarily.
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Hypnotic induction is followed by state-like changes in the organization of EEG functional connectivity in the theta and beta frequency bands in high-hypnotically susceptible individuals
Altered state theories of hypnosis posit that a qualitatively distinct state of mental processing, which emerges in those with high hypnotic susceptibility following a hypnotic induction, enables the generation of anomalous experiences in response to specific hypnotic suggestions. If so then such a state should be observable as a discrete pattern of changes to functional connectivity (shared information) between brain regions following a hypnotic induction in high but not low hypnotically susceptible participants. Twenty-eight channel EEG was recorded from 12 high susceptible (highs) and 11 low susceptible (lows) participants with their eyes closed prior to and following a standard hypnotic induction. The EEG was used to provide a measure of functional connectivity using both coherence (COH) and the imaginary component of coherence (iCOH), which is insensitive to the effects of volume conduction. COH and iCOH were calculated between all electrode pairs for the frequency bands: delta (0.1–3.9 Hz), theta (4–7.9 Hz) alpha (8–12.9 Hz), beta1 (13–19.9 Hz), beta2 (20–29.9 Hz) and gamma (30–45 Hz). The results showed that there was an increase in theta iCOH from the pre-hypnosis to hypnosis condition in highs but not lows with a large proportion of significant links being focused on a central-parietal hub. There was also a decrease in beta1 iCOH from the pre-hypnosis to hypnosis condition with a focus on a fronto-central and an occipital hub that was greater in high compared to low susceptibles. There were no significant differences for COH or for spectral band amplitude in any frequency band. The results are interpreted as indicating that the hypnotic induction elicited a qualitative change in the organization of specific control systems within the brain for high as compared to low susceptible participants. This change in the functional organization of neural networks is a plausible indicator of the much theorized “hypnotic-state.”
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More recently, hypnosis has begun to be employed as a method for manipulating subjects' mental states, both cognitive and affective, to provide information about the neural substrates of experience, thought, and action. This instrumental use of hypnosis is particularly well-suited for identifying the neural correlates of conscious and unconscious perception and memory, and of voluntary and involuntary action.

Hypnosis as an empirically supported clinical intervention: the state of the evidence and a look to the future.

Pain perception and hypnosis: findings from recent functional neuroimaging studies.
By reviewing functional neuroimaging studies focusing on pain perception under hypnosis, the authors aimed to identify brain activation-deactivation patterns occurring in hypnosis-modulated pain conditions. Different changes in brain functionality occurred throughout all components of the pain network and other brain areas. The anterior cingulate cortex appears to be central in modulating pain circuitry activity under hypnosis. Most studies also showed that the neural functions of the prefrontal, insular, and somatosensory cortices are consistently modified during hypnosis-modulated pain conditions. Functional neuroimaging studies support the clinical use of hypnosis in the management of pain conditions.
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Varanid said:
Wow. You know this is nonsense.

What is a "valid observer"? If it is easier, you can tell me what an "invalid observer" is.

And you can't just shift the burden of proof. You are the one that made the extraordinary claim; Scrut challenged your claim. You know how this works...
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No, Scrut stuck his foot in his mouth. I know exactly how it works. And you're right there with him.


You gotta keep, other wise all that stuff you learned decades ago becomes outdated and you find yourself looking as foolish as evolution deniers.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Regardless of whether hypnotism is genuine or not, it's certainly outside the job duties of a school principal. In any workplace one should confine oneself to appropriate behavior, and that goes triple for people whose job involves working with children.

And the principal should be investigated to make sure he's not the principal from Buffy.
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I totally agree. Like I said earlier, I think this is what the lawsuit probably addressed, rather than claiming hypnosis caused the suicides.
 
Senex said:
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Hypnosis can not make anyone commit suicide. Think of it in a simple practical sense. If hypnosis could make you kill yourself or kill others it would certainly be in the news a lot more. If hypnotists had such far reaching powers they would probably be running the world by now. Hypnotists do not run the world for a reason -- hypnosis is very limited in its effects. You can't hypnotize anyone to become an assassin or a suicide victim. Hypnosis is the ultimate placebo with all its limitations.
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I agree the depth of the hypnotic state is often overstated. But by the same token, saying it's nothing but stage tricks understates it as well.
 
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