3 students die after principal hypnotizes them

Checkmite said:
Once the various entities willing to do scientific studies of hypnosis can agree on a consistent, specific definition of what a "hypnosis state" is, and what is not a "hypnosis state", and then agree on a standardized procedure for both inducing hypnosis and objectively determining whether a patient is properly in that state or not, I'll start considering hypnosis studies useful. Until then, it may as well be a dozen different people studying a dozen different but similar-appearing things, and calling it all proof of the same thing.
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And I'm a little leery of "brain activity" as a proxy for any particular, specific mental state.
 
as a personal level experience, with a zilch value, I am a bit of a control freak, and found it very easy to be hypnotised.
it was a positive experience for me, and I must confess to being astounded as to how 'easily' I became hypnotised.
it wasn't at all what I expected.
 
It seems unlikely that he should cause their death by hypnosis, but if he has prevented them from receiving proper care, I see the point.

Hypnosis is intriguing!
People react to the procedure, meaning that "something" happens. The interesting part IMHO is the "what", "how" and "where" of it.
 
When I was in grade 7 there was a hypnotist show at our school. Same deal 20 or 30 people went on stage, including me. About 20 of us stayed under, including me. I faked the whole god dam thing. It was horrible. I had to spend like an hour on stage pretending to be hypnotized. Doing all this stupid crap that just wouldn't end.
 
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casebro said:
Back up story:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ised-students-avoids-jail-time-plea-deal.html

Seems they were hypnotized days to months before suicides. And how would we know that a student self hynotized before dying?

I would suspect that he was "treating" troubled students, and his treatment didn't help. They might as well have used the drugs that don't work either. Heard the ads? "side effects- suicide..."

So no, I don't think they did foolish things that they would not have done except under hypnosis. Unless they were clucking like chickens as the car crashed?
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He was trying therapeutic hypnosis with out a licence. So it was that he was using un sanctioned quakary that is the legal issue or something.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not exactly comparable. There is clinical measurable evidence hypnosis changes the state of consciousness. There is no corroborating evidence that Big Foot or ET visitors exist.


You guys are really sticking your foot in you mouths here, the evidence supporting the hypnotic state is well established now that various brain observation tools are available. You are probably conflating the fact recovered memories have been discredited with the mistaken belief hypnosis has been discredited.

It hasn't been. Just the opposite, the hypnotic state has been well documented with neurological studies of the brain. The changes are measurable, consistent from person to person, and repeatable.

Before you make even more foolish posts, you really should look at the science.
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Please link to the science of your silly anecdote.

I assume a clinician was measuring brainwaves that day, so where is the evidence?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not expecting anyone to. You can look for the research if you want.

But I was there, I'm a valid observer, and Scrut doesn't have any evidence my observation was faulty.

So his claim had no supporting evidence, whereas mine was based on a valid observation.
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Wow. You know this is nonsense.

What is a "valid observer"? If it is easier, you can tell me what an "invalid observer" is.

And you can't just shift the burden of proof. You are the one that made the extraordinary claim; Scrut challenged your claim. You know how this works...
 
Regardless of whether hypnotism is genuine or not, it's certainly outside the job duties of a school principal. In any workplace one should confine oneself to appropriate behavior, and that goes triple for people whose job involves working with children.

And the principal should be investigated to make sure he's not the principal from Buffy.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Regardless of whether hypnotism is genuine or not, it's certainly outside the job duties of a school principal. In any workplace one should confine oneself to appropriate behavior, and that goes triple for people whose job involves working with children.

And the principal should be investigated to make sure he's not the principal from Buffy.
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You are getting very sleepy.... very... sleepy. When I snap my fingers, you will go back to work, happy with the glorious task you have been assigned and forget all about the slightest possibility of another vacation day.
 
Sad to see so many supposed critical thinkers willingly throw away their skepticism and jump on the 'there might have been some sort of hypnosis going with the students', when it was clearly nothing more than run of the mill black magic.
 
Hypnosis is a topic I have always been fascinated with. From a young age I wanted to be able to do what The Amazing Kreskin seemed able to do and half his live show is hypnotism -- or the power of suggestion as he calls it (he has always said there is no such thing as hypnotism and offers a $20G check to anyone who can prove it exists). I have performed the occasional stage hypnosis routine and have a library that contains both books on stage hypnosis and therapeutic hypnosis. I'm a skeptic because my research into mentalism showed it to be just magic tricks with woo explanations. But I digress from the discussion of hypnosis.

Hypnosis can not make anyone commit suicide. Think of it in a simple practical sense. If hypnosis could make you kill yourself or kill others it would certainly be in the news a lot more. If hypnotists had such far reaching powers they would probably be running the world by now. Hypnotists do not run the world for a reason -- hypnosis is very limited in its effects. You can't hypnotize anyone to become an assassin or a suicide victim. Hypnosis is the ultimate placebo with all its limitations.
 
Ladewig said:
Thank you for your answer.

May I ask you for a more thorough description of what you mean when you say "it is real"?
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As in, the two people I saw under hypnosis were clearly not faking it.

It's one thing to say people think they saw something there is no evidence for, and conclude they were misinterpreting what they saw.

It's quite another to observe something there is evidence for (documented brain activity changes), and to be offered a single alternative explanation that itself is much less credible.

I observed an unmistakable incident of two people under hypnosis.
 
Checkmite said:
Once the various entities willing to do scientific studies of hypnosis can agree on a consistent, specific definition of what a "hypnosis state" is, and what is not a "hypnosis state", and then agree on a standardized procedure for both inducing hypnosis and objectively determining whether a patient is properly in that state or not, I'll start considering hypnosis studies useful. Until then, it may as well be a dozen different people studying a dozen different but similar-appearing things, and calling it all proof of the same thing.
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The fact there are charlatans and entertainers mixed in with the actual clinical phenomena of hypnosis may be clouding your picture.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Hypnosis is real, I don't understand the people who think the people are faking it. I've seen it first hand and no way was my friend faking it when my brother hypnotized her and told her she was on the ceiling looking down and she started screaming and kicking her legs.
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Really?

I wonder if I could hypnotize my wife so that she would think our credit cards are spiders and would subsequently be more loath to use them so much?
 
Caper said:
When I was in grade 7 there was a hypnotist show at our school. Same deal 20 or 30 people went on stage, including me. About 20 of us stayed under, including me. I faked the whole god dam thing. It was horrible. I had to spend like an hour on stage pretending to be hypnotized. Doing all this stupid crap that just wouldn't end.
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Do you remember what you were feeling? What made you start to pretend?
 
Link

Months later, Freeman's girlfriend noticed a strange look on his face as he drove back with her from a painful dentist visit; the car then veered off of Interstate 75, according to the Herald-Tribune. Freeman would die from injuries sustained in the accident. Police later came to suspect that Freeman had been trying to self-hypnotize, possibly to distract himself from the pain in his mouth, according to a local ABC station.
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If this kid tried to "zone out" while driving then I could see some blame shifted to the principal, by a good lawyer anyways. I do think a person old enough to drive is old enough to know better than to try this, and there is no proof at all that he indeed did this.

For example: Lawyer interviews witness in office: "Are you sure you didn't see him trying to hypnotize himself while driving? Is there anything at all you can remember about that moment that could possibly indicate this?"

My experience: my attorney tried desperately to help me remember if I'd suffered any other injuries in a car accident. Good attorney, bad accident, but no, I'm sure my arm was not injured.

Next victim:
...her parents told the Herald-Tribune. Kenney said that hypnosis could help improve her SAT scores. Her scores remained the same, and weeks later her parents found her hanging in her bedroom closet.
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Hypnosis didn't work for her test scores but it is blamed for her suicide weeks later?

Remember, this case resulted in a settlement. Kenney was not found guilty in a court of law. The school district caved and paid a relatively small settlement. It would have been interesting to see how a judge or jury would have decided.
 
My little experinces:

For relaxation, it's a good thing. Ever wake up from a concussion, nice and relaxed? Same thing. I can warm up my hands from 94f to 98f with a couple deep breathes. But it doesn't help the hypertension. It is what meditation is.

I used the relaxation idea to remember the combination to a safe that I had not opened in 6-7 years.

A hypnotherapist did a routine to 'suggest I cut down on procrastination'. It worked.

So, no miracles, but a suggestion to do what you know you ought to, is my overview.

I guess some people just feel they OUGHT to squawk like a chicken some times. And that is probably cathartic too.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Hypnosis is real...
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Michael Shermer agrees.

Hypnosis is one of those mysteries that, while real, remains elusive for predatory scientists bent on capturing all mentality in a scientistic net... It is with hypnosis in particular that I depart ways from many of my skeptical colleagues who argue that it is nothing more than fantasy role-playing, or worse, pure fakery. From my personal experiences with altered states of consciousness, whatever they are, their effects are dramatic and real.

http://www.michaelshermer.com/2003/10/mesmerized/#more-103
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