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Cont: 2024 Election Thread part 3

It's not just Silver. I'd never heard of this Selzer before tonight, but apparently her poll is a big damned deal. Everyone's realigning in response. It's fascinating to watch it happen in real time.

Her poll is no bigger a deal than any other poll, and nobody is "realigning" in response to it. It shifts the polling average in Iowa a couple points in Harris's direction, and the markets are reacting accordingly.
 
Her poll is no bigger a deal than any other poll, and nobody is "realigning" in response to it. It shifts the polling average in Iowa a couple points in Harris's direction, and the markets are reacting accordingly.
What is considered a bigger deal is that many of the other polls are herding or they are from companies that carry out low-quality polling.
 
It's not just Silver.
I'd never heard of this Selzer before tonight, but apparently her poll is a big damned deal. Everyone's realigning in response. It's fascinating to watch it happen in real time.
Selzer is someone who long-term listeners of 538 may have heard of. She has been talked about on their podcast pretty often over the years, and Silver considers her to be one of the best, if not the actual best, pollster. She has a track record to back that up, it seems:

Selzer was the only pollster to correctly predict Barack Obama's comfortable victory in the 2008 Iowa Democratic caucuses,[9] and her poll of the 2014 United States Senate election in Iowa also mirrored the actual result exceptionally closely.[11]

Selzer & Co. conducted their final 2016 Iowa poll in early November, showing Donald Trump ahead of Hillary Clinton by seven percentage points.[12] Most other polls at the time showed a much closer race.[13] Trump won Iowa by 9.4 percentage points. On October 31, 2020, Selzer's highly anticipated last poll of Iowa before the 2020 elections was released. It showed Trump ahead of Joe Biden by seven percentage points, and Republican Senator Joni Ernst ahead of Democratic challenger Theresa Greenfield by four percentage points.[14] This was the only poll conducted in fall 2020 to show Trump ahead by more than two points.[15] Ernst's race was considered a toss-up at the time.[16] Trump eventually won Iowa by 8.2 percentage points, and Ernst was re-elected by a 6.6 point margin. In a post-election interview with Bloomberg.com, Selzer suggested that her polls' consistently high performance may be related to making fewer assumptions about the electorate, but rather "I assumed nothing. My data told me."
 
What is considered a bigger deal is that many of the other polls are herding or they are from companies that carry out low-quality polling.

Even Nate Silver says that the Selzer poll is probably wrong. The markets have responded appropriately. On Polymarket, Trump's probability of winning Pennsylvania [correction: Iowa] dropped from 95% to 82%.
 
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Even Nate Silver says that the Selzer poll is probably wrong. The markets have responded appropriately. On Polymarket, Trump's probability of winning Pennsylvania dropped from 95% to 82%.
Sure. One poll in a non-swing state (or very unlikely to swing state) is not something that should massively sway anyone, but it is still interesting. I stand by that, and by the claim that it is not "no bigger a deal than any other poll".
Anyway, where are you getting those numbers about Pennsylvania on Polymarket? When I looked, Trump is 54% and Harris 47%.

Screenshot 2024-11-03 145832.png
 
Anyway, where are you getting those numbers about Pennsylvania on Polymarket?
Did I say Pennsylvania? Sorry, I meant Iowa.

https://polymarket.com/event/iowa-p...24-us-presidential-election?tid=1730616568979

Currently, Trump 83%.

BTW, hardly anyone has considered that the margin of error on the Harris lead of 3% that Selzer reported is ±6.6%, so an actual Trump lead of up to 3.6 percentage points would be consistent with her results. (Nate Silver's polling average for Iowa has Trump ahead by 3.4%.)
 
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BTW, hardly anyone has considered that the margin of error on the Harris lead of 3% that Selzer reported is ±6.6%, so an actual Trump lead of up to 3.6 percentage points would be consistent with her results.
So, of course, would an actual Harris lead of 9.6%. :)

I've come to the conclusion that nothing any poll is telling us is particularly reliable. I guess we'll just have to wait three more days to know who is the winner. Possibly more.
 
So, of course, would an actual Harris lead of 9.6%. :)

I've come to the conclusion that nothing any poll is telling us is particularly reliable. I guess we'll just have to wait three more days to know who is the winner. Possibly more.
What I don't understand is why so much stock is put into the latest poll, as if it supersedes all previous information, and especially when election forecasters, such as Nate Silver, do such a good job of integrating the poll with all that other information. The reporting on the Selzer poll borders on fraud. For example, the lead sentence in the Des Moines Register's article reporting the result was "Kamala Harris now leads Donald Trump in Iowa — a startling reversal for Democrats and Republicans who have all but written off the state’s presidential contest as a certain Trump victory."

That is just ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

Arguably worse, if accurate, the article quotes Selzer herself: “'It’s hard for anybody to say they saw this coming,' said pollster J. Ann Selzer, president of Selzer & Co. 'She has clearly leaped into a leading position.'”

"Clearly" in a leading position? Does America's most esteemed pollster not know how to calculate a 95% confidence interval?
 
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This is what Trump said:

“She’s a radical war hawk. Let’s put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her. “Okay, let’s see how she feels about it. You know when the guns are trained on her face — you know, they’re all war hawks when they’re sitting in Washington in a nice building.”

Let's be honest and not do what Trump and MAGA do: misinterpret things to fit our own agenda. It's clear that he is NOT calling for Liz Cheney to be put in front of a firing squad or shot. He is saying that she'd be less of a "war hawk" and sending people to war if she had to fight herself. Frankly, he's right that those who are often the most ready to use military force do not have to face battle themselves.
Example: one Donald J Trump. Got spurious reason to get out of serving his country yet immediately turns to violence any time his will is thwarted.
 
I've been watching a fair amount of streaming and Youtube, and of course ads come up. I'm in PA and here is what I have noticed:

1) Very few Trump ads, and what there is seems centered around football, be it clips on Youtube or Thursday night football. In those Trump ads their primary message is that....Harris is pro-transgender.

2) Its about even with the McCormick vs Casey ads. Casey ads promote him while others attack McCormick for being from Connecticut, being a Wall street bandit, and having multiple private jets. McCormick ads used to try and promote him but they are entirely negative against Casey saying mostly that he is......pro-transgender.

3) There are more and many types of Harris ads. They mostly try to paint Trump as being for billionaires and wanting to punish women for having an abortion.

4) I see almost no ads for other races except for State Attorney General which is a very distant third in ad quantity.

Harris seems to be outspending Trump in my viewing habits. Don't know if it will make a whit of difference.
I wonder what would happen to the relative volume of ads if you created a clean youtube account and started watching random videos from that. The ad choicess are part of the same algorithm as the video ones.
 
Yeah, probably pay it off by axing social security.
Funny the comparison to Milei, given how badly he's raping the Argentinian economy. "The only way to reduce the debt is to kill the economy!"

But then again, anybody with more than three brain cells will tell you that austerity never works.
 
Conservatives Remembering to Pretend to Care About the National Debt is always my favorite part of an election year, but it takes a special kind of gullible to believe that the guy who added $8 trillion to the national debt is going to reduce it if he gets into office again. He of course promised to reduce the debt the first time he was running for office. But this time it's for real. Pinky swear.

I bet you're really fired up for Trump's healthcare plan, too. I heard he's going to unveil it in two weeks. And Trump's Infrastructure Week must really have you excited.
The national debt was never a problem until Ray-Gun came along (in fact you could argue that in some ways it was too low, restricting long term investments) and that was because under him the US turned from a country that taxed the rich to one that taxed the poor.
 
New York Times Editorial Board Rips Apart Donald Trump in Single Paragraph

The editorial board of The New York Times just eviscerated Donald Trump in a single paragraph.

The piece, published on Saturday, was the Times’ latest attack on the former president in the run-up to the election, but the searing indictment was all the more brutal for its brevity.

Rhetorically matter-of-fact, the piece succinctly lays out many of the reasons Trump’s critics think his second term would be disastrous for the country—the implicit point being that nobody really needs a lengthy review of all Trump’s actions; everyone already knows what he’s about.

Here it is in full, with its original links to other Times coverage of Trump preserved:
You already know Donald Trump. He is unfit to lead. Watch him. Listen to those who know him best. He tried to subvert an election and remains a threat to democracy. He helped overturn Roe, with terrible consequences. Mr. Trump’s corruption and lawlessness go beyond elections: It’s his whole ethos. He lies without limit. If he’s re-elected, the G.O.P. won’t restrain him. Mr. Trump will use the government to go after opponents. He will pursue a cruel policy of mass deportations. He will wreak havoc on the poor, the middle class and employers. Another Trump term will damage the climate, shatter alliances and strengthen autocrats. Americans should demand better. Vote.”

Link to the original at NYT (may be paywalled).

 
What I don't understand is why so much stock is put into the latest poll, as if it supersedes all previous information
As I understand it, most of the stock comes from the pollster being historically right. Starting in 2012, she's gotten the presidential Iowa result within one or two points of the final tally. She focuses on Iowa, and ONLY Iowa, which is not in any way a swing state subject to constant electoral inundation, so she's got a unique handle on "low-information" voters. Also, it's IOWA. A state redder than Texas. Redder than Ohio. If Harris is even in consideration for that state, Trump is deeply screwed everywhere else.

[ETA] Harris -3 in Iowa would have been great news for her campaign. Harris +3 is enough hopium to give me anxiety.
 
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I wonder what would happen to the relative volume of ads if you created a clean youtube account and started watching random videos from that. The ad choicess are part of the same algorithm as the video ones.
As an aside, I just discovered that if you download the DuckDuckGo browser and use it to watch YT videos, you won't get ads at all. It's such an improvement now that YT ads are so frequent, obtrusive, and stupid, and so hard to block otherwise.
 
What I don't understand is why so much stock is put into the latest poll, as if it supersedes all previous information, and especially when election forecasters, such as Nate Silver, do such a good job of integrating the poll with all that other information. The reporting on the Selzer poll borders on fraud. For example, the lead sentence in the Des Moines Register's article reporting the result was "Kamala Harris now leads Donald Trump in Iowa — a startling reversal for Democrats and Republicans who have all but written off the state’s presidential contest as a certain Trump victory."

That is just ********.

Arguably worse, if accurate, the article quotes Selzer herself: “'It’s hard for anybody to say they saw this coming,' said pollster J. Ann Selzer, president of Selzer & Co. 'She has clearly leaped into a leading position.'”

"Clearly" in a leading position? Does America's most esteemed pollster not know how to calculate a 95% confidence interval?
A lot of stock is put in this poll because, as Silver pointed out, most pollsters are herding meaning their polls are probably not that accurate. He showed recently how the polls in swing states being a point or two apart is not credible given the stated margin of error. For them to ALL be so close together suggests that they are putting their thumb on the scale or file-drawing those that don’t look right.

In this case Selzer’s poll seems to be an outlier. That could be because it is not very good. But given Silver’s rating of her poll, her numbers are at least going to be fairly good. Now, does it mean Harris will win Iowa? No! Or at least probably not but that is not so important. What is important is that polls in one place are not completely independent of polls elsewhere. A very good showing in Iowa, given the demographics, is likely to translate as good in Michigan and Wisconsin. That, coupled with good numbers from another good polling organization, NYT/ Siena in Pennsylvania means that Harris can be considered having a pretty good chance in the election. Silver stil puts it at around 50-50 but way better than the chance that Polymarket gives Harris.
 
Donald says

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

If Kamala wins, you are 3 days away from the start of a 1929-style economic depression. If I win, you are 3 days away from the best jobs, the biggest paychecks, and the brightest economic future the world has ever seen.

Kamala’s inflation nightmare has cost the typical American family $30,000 dollars in higher prices—and now, she wants to impose the largest tax hike in American history, and raise your taxes by $3,000 dollars a year.

I will massively cut taxes for workers and small businesses—and we will have NO TAX ON TIPS, NO TAX ON OVERTIME, and NO TAX ON SOCIAL SECURITY benefits!
 
The national debt was never a problem until Ray-Gun came along (in fact you could argue that in some ways it was too low, restricting long term investments) and that was because under him the US turned from a country that taxed the rich to one that taxed the poor.


Andrew Jackson reduced the national debt to $0 in 1835 and it triggered a devastating economic crisis.
 

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