137 significance??

[Seraph]

Hi I had no idea where to post this but this seems to be the right thread...

I was disagreeing with a girl in class on what the sociological term for Affect is and what not, because she was giving an example of what she thought it was.... but affect has nothing to do with it/and it makes no sense.

She told me how she came to realize, after 2 months ago a friend was talking about the number 137 and how it appears everywhere and we don't realize it. Then she started looking for it and 2 months later she saw a youtube video that ended at 1:37 and said "whoa my friend was right!"

Its at this time I chimed in and told her that she was just searching for a pattern within randomness, and that you see tons of numbers everyday and if you don't look for them you don't see them. the fact you had to search 2 months for the number to pop up should make her understand right?

Nope, she said there is "science" behind this yet didn't have her friend around to tell her what it was. Which defeats the purpose of looking for 137 because if you don't know WHY it comes up or is significant, there is no meaning to finding it besides feeling that "woah he was right!" the same feeling you would feel if you went to a psychic that told you, "you will find wealth in the future" and 2 months later you find 5 bucks. Samething correct?

my question is, is there any scientific, mathmatical theory that she is basing this upon? I would love to tell her the actual reason why it is important, but cannot find a source that explains/mentions this number being more important then any other number.

Not to mention, this girl said I was "the worst person" shes met all day, because everything that came out of her mouth I disagreed with .

Help a brother out?

 

[theprestige]

Pareidolia^WP

991372573897137235423614137135619895896137

 

[Spindrift]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

 

[RussDill]

Hi I had no idea where to post this but this seems to be the right thread...

I was disagreeing with a girl in class on what the sociological term for Affect is and what not, because she was giving an example of what she thought it was.... but affect has nothing to do with it/and it makes no sense.

She told me how she came to realize, after 2 months ago a friend was talking about the number 137 and how it appears everywhere and we don't realize it. Then she started looking for it and 2 months later she saw a youtube video that ended at 1:37 and said "whoa my friend was right!"

Its at this time I chimed in and told her that she was just searching for a pattern within randomness, and that you see tons of numbers everyday and if you don't look for them you don't see them. the fact you had to search 2 months for the number to pop up should make her understand right?

Nope, she said there is "science" behind this yet didn't have her friend around to tell her what it was. Which defeats the purpose of looking for 137 because if you don't know WHY it comes up or is significant, there is no meaning to finding it besides feeling that "woah he was right!" the same feeling you would feel if you went to a psychic that told you, "you will find wealth in the future" and 2 months later you find 5 bucks. Samething correct?

my question is, is there any scientific, mathmatical theory that she is basing this upon? I would love to tell her the actual reason why it is important, but cannot find a source that explains/mentions this number being more important then any other number.

Not to mention, this girl said I was "the worst person" shes met all day, because everything that came out of her mouth I disagreed with .

Help a brother out?

Holy crap this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard "the number 137 and how it appears everywhere and we don't realize it". So does every other number. 152 appears everywhere and we don't realize it either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/137_(number)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/152_(number)

Pick a number. It's out there. I would be much more shocked if there was a number we did not encounter.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I was about to dismiss her claims as out of hand, but then I noticed something very spooky. The number 137 keeps appearing in this very thread. It is in the subject line of the thread, it appears several times in the OP, and it has even shown up in the very post you are reading.

 

[FenerFan]

Maybe she's on to something.

The Mysterious 137

If you have ever read Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feynman, you know that he believed that there were still many things that experts, or in this case, physicists, did not know. One of these 'unknowns' that he pointed out often to all of his colleagues was the mysterious number 137.This number is the value of the fine-structure constant (the actual value is one over one-hundred and thirty seven), which is defined as the charge of the electron (q) squared over the product of Planck's constant (h) times the speed of light (c). This number actually represents the probability that an electron will absorb a photon. However, this number has more significance in the fact that it relates three very important domains of physics: electromagnetism in the form of the charge of the electron, relativity in the form of the speed of light, and quantum mechanics in the form of Planck's constant. Since the early 1900's, physicists have thought that this number might be at the heart of a GUT, or Grand Unified Theory, which could relate the theories of electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, and most especially gravity. However, physicists have yet to find any link between the number 137 and any other physical law in the universe. It was expected that such an important equation would generate an important number, like one or pi, but this was not the case. In fact, about the only thing that the number relates to at all is the room in which the great physicist Wolfgang Pauli died: room 137. So whenever you think that science has finally discovered everything it possibly can, remember Richard Feynman and the number 137.

Dr. Bill Riemers writes: classical physics tells us that electrons captured by element #137 (as yet undiscovered and unnamed) of the periodic table will move at the speed of light. The idea is quite simple, if you don't use math to explain it. 137 is the odds that an electron will absorb a single photon. Protons and electrons are bound by interactions with photons. So when you get 137 protons, you get 137 photons, and you get a 100% chance of absorption. An electron in the ground state will orbit at the speed of light. This is the electromagnetic equivalent of a black hole. For gravitational black hole, general relativity comes to the rescue to prevent planets from orbiting at the speed of light and beyond. For an electromagnetic black hole, general relativity comes to the rescue and saves element 137 from having electrons moving faster than the speed of light. However, even with general relativity, element 139 would still have electrons moving faster than light. According to Einstein, this is an impossibility. Thus proving that we still don't understand 137.

From here: http://www.brew-wood.co.uk/physics/feynman.htm#137

 

[Brown]

How long before someone discusses the fine-structure constant?

Edited to add: some ninja just did.

 

[Seraph]

Okay I am glad there are somethings that give the number it's significance, however!

Saying the instructor skipped to 1:37 seconds in a video to pass the introduction, and saying that is a "sign" that the significance of the number exists... that's some ******** numerology correct? Its an anecdote? proves nothing? Shes wrong?

I just wanna rub this in her face since she will present her "affect" **** tomorrow.

 

[schrodingasdawg]

The strength of the electromagnetic coupling is actually a function of the momentum transferred to the target. It's about 1/137 when the momentum transfer goes to zero, but it's closer to 1/129 when the momentum transfer is equal to the Z mass. In between these scales, the coupling strength will go through every 1/N for 129<N<137. There's absolutely no reason that any of these numbers should be seen as "significant." They're just values that a function assumes.

 

[ctamblyn]

Maybe she's on to something.



From here: http://www.brew-wood.co.uk/physics/feynman.htm#137

That quote was... made of wrongness.

1. 137 is not the value of the fine structure constant, though it is close to the reciprocal (1/alpha = 137.035999, approximately).

2. Classical physics (i.e. pre-quantum theory, but not pre-relativity) does not say that electrons captured by element 137 will move at the speed of light and violate special relativity, or that electrons captured by element 139 would exceed the speed of light.

Okay I am glad there are somethings that give the number it's significance, however!

Saying the instructor skipped to 1:37 seconds in a video to pass the introduction, and saying that is a "sign" that the significance of the number exists... that's some ******** numerology correct? Its an anecdote? proves nothing? Shes wrong?

I just wanna rub this in her face since she will present her "affect" **** tomorrow.

It's highly unlikely to be of any significance. Like previous posters said, once you start looking for something like a number or a word, it seems to appear everywhere.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you have ever read Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feynman, you know that he believed that there were still many things that experts, or in this case, physicists, did not know. One of these 'unknowns' that he pointed out often to all of his colleagues was the mysterious number 137.This number is the value of the fine-structure constant (the actual value is one over one-hundred and thirty seven), which is defined as the charge of the electron (q) squared over the product of Planck's constant (h) times the speed of light (c). This number actually represents the probability that an electron will absorb a photon.

I guarantee you that it does not.

First off, probabilities are always, always, between zero and 1. They are never larger than 1. This is a basic function of the way probability is defined. So a probability of 137 is absolute nonsense, no matter what subject you're talking about.

Secondly, the probability that an electron absorbs a photon is not a constant. It depends upon the current state of the electron, the surrounding potential (which determines the possible states the electron can transition to upon absorption), and the details of the photon including energy, polarization, spatial extent, etc.

Dr. Bill Riemers writes: classical physics tells us that electrons captured by element #137 (as yet undiscovered and unnamed) of the periodic table will move at the speed of light. The idea is quite simple, if you don't use math to explain it.

Translation: the idea is wrong, but you can't easily tell that it's wrong as long as you don't check with math.

137 is the odds that an electron will absorb a single photon. Protons and electrons are bound by interactions with photons. So when you get 137 protons, you get 137 photons, and you get a 100% chance of absorption.

Evidently the author confused reciprocal probability with probability (which goes back to my earlier statement about probabilities always being less than 1). But he's still wrong, since photon absorption probabilities are not constant.

An electron in the ground state will orbit at the speed of light.

No it won't.

This is the electromagnetic equivalent of a black hole.

No it isn't.

For gravitational black hole, general relativity comes to the rescue to prevent planets from orbiting at the speed of light and beyond.

No. First off, without GR, there are no black holes to begin with. GR can't be said to solve a "problem" that never existed without it. Second, you only need SR, not GR, to prevent stuff from exceeding the speed of light. And SR is very much tied to electromagnetism. SR was developed specifically to reconcile electromagnetism with classical mechanics.

However, even with general relativity, element 139 would still have electrons moving faster than light.

No it wouldn't.

According to Einstein, this is an impossibility. Thus proving that we still don't understand 137.

I fully believe that the author of that piece doesn't understand 137.

 

[Hellbound]

I suggest studying the "Rule of Fives" from the fictional Illuminatus Trilogy. I think it illustrates the effect rather well. The basic synapsis: one of the characters points out the rule of fives as evidence of a conspiracy: the number five, and variations of it (such as 23, becaue 2+3 is 5), pentagrams (5 sides), and so forth. The character then starts noticing fives and 23s everywhere. Near the end, he discovers the rule of fives was pretty much just made up. He protests (paraphrase): "But how can it be made up? Every where I look for them I find them!" to which the reply is "Yes, exactly."

It's a problem that, until someone pointed out that 137 had some assumed significance, your friend likely never noticed all the random times it showed up. The same is true of almost any number. Smaller numbers are more likely to show up more often (for example, a single digit is going to be found 1/10th of the time, on average), but considering the amount of numbers around us any non-huge number is likely to be found. Heck, 1:37 will show up on digital clocks, smartphones, computers, and watches twice a day (unless you use a 24-hour clock, then it's once a day).

Essentially, this is textbook confirmation bias. We ignore the other numbers (or things that don't go according to our pre-concieved ideas, or don't match what we're looking for) because we don't attach any special significance to them. For example, when you're "looking for wealth" does the fact that you have to pay the house bill, the car bil, and the water bill count against you? A parking fine? Losing some loose change? Your 401k going down? That's wealth going out the door. No, but finding a $5 bill on the sidewalk somehow proves it works.

 

[casebro]

Is "selection bias" too easy of an answer?

 

[jasonpatterson]

Maybe she's on to something.

The author of your quotation didn't even define the fine structure constant correctly; they omitted the permittivity of space.

No. First off, without GR, there are no black holes to begin with.

I guess it depends on how you define a black hole. There certainly were people who proposed bodies so massive that their escape velocities were faster than the speed of light well before GR was a thing. John Michell (who apparently invented and built the apparatus for the Cavendish experiment but died before he could use it - thanks Wikipedia) published his ideas regarding dark stars in 1784 (as did LaPlace a decade later.)

 

[Toontown]

I went to the A.L.I.C.E. site to ask ALICE what she knows about 137. I thought she'd know. Strangely, the site was down. I've never seen that before. After a couple of tries, I got ALICE to recognize me and say hi. But when I asked about 137, she hung up.

That's gotta mean something.

It got me thinking, and I realized 137 is 3*42+11. As we all know, 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything, as determined by a supercomputer - but the supercomputer only gave it up after it tried to outlast the civilization that asked it the question. And now ALICE is engaging in the same stalling tactic.

Obviously, 137 is 11 points more than 3x as significant as 42.

 

[CapelDodger]

I suggest studying the "Rule of Fives" from the fictional Illuminatus Trilogy. I think it illustrates the effect rather well. The basic synapsis: one of the characters points out the rule of fives as evidence of a conspiracy: the number five, and variations of it (such as 23, becaue 2+3 is 5), pentagrams (5 sides), and so forth. The character then starts noticing fives and 23s everywhere. Near the end, he discovers the rule of fives was pretty much just made up. He protests (paraphrase): "But how can it be made up? Every where I look for them I find them!" to which the reply is "Yes, exactly."

Yes, exactly.

 

[Toontown]

A.L.I.C.E. has come out of hiding. We had a little talk about 137.

judge: What do you know about the number 137?
ALICE: I will search for it.
judge: OK, let me know when you find out something.
ALICE: Are you kidding?. Go ahead, judge, try to know when me find out something.
judge: Uh, OK...don't forget that number. It's 137.
ALICE: Give me a break. number that? You're kidding. it is?
judge: I'm not telling you anything. I'm asking you about 137.
ALICE: Why not? Interesting gossip.
judge: Try to focus.
ALICE: OK I will try to focus.
judge: What do you know about 137?
ALICE: That's a good question.
judge: Yeah, if only you had a good answer.
ALICE: Yeah that's right.. You will be the first to know if I have done it.
judge: OK, I'll check back with you in three million years.
ALICE: Uh.. I am very happy for you.
judge: Happy that I expect to live three million years?
ALICE: Happy that I expect to live three million years to you too, judge.
judge: OK, that was stupid.
ALICE: That's alright.. Are you calling me stupid?

Note the evasiveness. She knows something. I'll get it out of her if it takes three million years.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

After a couple of tries, I got ALICE to recognize me and say hi. But when I asked about 137, she hung up.

I think you are on to something. I tried dialing 137 on my telephone, but all i got was a weird noise so I hung up. The phone then immediately started ringing, but when I answered there was nobody there!

Coincidence? I thought so too, but I tried dialing it again and exactly the same thing happened! There is definitely something spooky about the number 137.

 

[Brian-M]

She told me how she came to realize, after 2 months ago a friend was talking about the number 137 and how it appears everywhere and we don't realize it. Then she started looking for it and 2 months later she saw a youtube video that ended at 1:37 and said "whoa my friend was right!"

137 pops up everywhere? Cool, in that case there should be a Numberphile video about it.

Let's look at the uploads... Googol Song.... Why 381,654,729 is awesome... 158,962,555,217,826,360,000... 4937775... 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 Rubik's Cube Combinations... 37... 27 the Favorite Number... 32 and Truncated Icosahedron... 60... 8848... 666... 3 is everywhere... 6,000,000 and Abel Prize... 13,983,816 and the Lottery... 42 and Douglas Adams... 5, 13 and 137 are Pythagorean Primes...

.... Woah! There actually is a video that talks about 137 (as well as 5 and 13). I was going to ask why, if it appears everywhere, doesn't it appear among Numberphile's videos. I guess the joke's on me.

5, 13 and 137 are Pythagorean Primes
​

 

[FenerFan]

Thanks for all the fine responses to my Feynam post. I love ths forum because of the quick and accurate rebuttals that are usually posted.
In my defense, I posted it a bit tongue in cheek. I am not educated in physics, but I do know enough to understand that 137 is not really a significant value. After reading some of the posts whichfollowed mine, I understand more fully why it is not significant.