12-year old girl with an 80-year old spine

[CFLarsen]

No, Larsen, you're the self-imposed expert here.

Pointing out that there is a 12-year old girl with severe degenerate bone condition due to her Vegan diet makes me a "self-imposed expert"?

Should krelnik stop his project, then? He can't be an expert in all those things, can he?

Do tell us what makes a Vegan Diet bad, and what nutrients you'd be lacking, and how you cannot find any other possible source for those nutrients.

Thank you, you just made my case for me. If your Vegan diet isn't bad, why would you need other sources for those nutrients that aren't in the diet?

Hm?

C'mon, Larsen. Use your expert study skillz.

C'mon, Lonewulf. There's a little girl suffering badly from her parents' idiotic beliefs. Use your critical thinking skills.

 

[Lonewulf]

Vegan diet does not automatically translate into "completely healthy" either. Not all vegans take the time to assess their nutritional needs. They simply assume, "if it's vegan, it must be healthy" then, when deficiencies arise, they wonder why.

And this is an argument for good research, not that veganism is necessarily a bad diet. That's like claiming that, because there are medical quacks that prescribe too much or too little of a dose of medication, that the medication is necessarily not useful. This is simply not true.

Personally, I equate vegetarianism with homeopathy and weird religions, but that's just my opinion.

Perfectly logical.

Thank you, you just made my case for me. If your Vegan diet isn't bad, why would you need other sources for those nutrients that aren't in the diet?

Hm?

And yet, you can use these other sources as part of your diet. So therefore, a vegan diet can be healthy. QED, use your own critical thinking skills.

Also, these other sources are not animal matter, so therefore they're still part of a vegan diet. Can you name a single nutrient that you cannot find from a plant or fruit or nut, or spices? A single one?

I've seen many claim that you can't find certain things like iron or zinc in animal matter, and then I respond by demonstrating very rich sources you can buy from simple products at your local supermarket. It seems like ignorance is the only tool you have in this matter.

C'mon, Lonewulf. There's a little girl suffering badly from her parents' idiotic beliefs.

There's a little girl that's suffering because her parents did not use basic research, and people like you are just pouncing on it to disgustingly use it as "evidence" that veganism is automatically harmful, and refusing to do your own research or making any kind of argument. You can't name a single nutrient that is lacking in vegetarianism, and you're practically revelling in the fact.. You make me sick.

Use your critical thinking skills.

Already have. Try to catch up, would you?

Anyways, I know what this is going to turn into. A bunch of 50 questions and insults in the way of vegans.

It's a useless waste of time just to satisfy people's agenda, when they're no more willing to do the most basic research that the parents of this poor girl weren't willing to do either.

But hey, whatever it takes to attack people with a different lifestyle than yours, right?

I repeat: I have yet to hear of a single nutrient that cannot be found in non-animal products, with the most basic of research. I challenge anyone to list anything. Zinc or iron is out, and I can easily back up what sources can be used.

Also, I love the language here. The claim that vegans just eat "herbs". Yes, apparently, fruits, vegetables, nuts, spices, soy, and tofu are all "herbs". No questionable language here, nope. No weasel words at all. What a skeptical argument.

Sickening.

 

[CFLarsen]

And yet, you can use these other sources as part of your diet. So therefore, a vegan diet can be healthy. QED, use your own critical thinking skills.

Take a look at this. There's "Oh, remember to take supplements" all over the place.

Also, these other sources are not animal matter, so therefore they're still part of a vegan diet. Can you name a single nutrient that you cannot find from a plant or fruit? A single one?

Meat.

I've seen many claim that you can't find certain things like iron or zinc in animal matter, and then I respond by demonstrating very rich sources you can buy from simple products at your local supermarket. It seems like ignorance is the only tool you have in this matter.

Do you eat plants that have been fertilized with animal waste?

There's a little girl that's suffering because her parents did not use basic research, and people like you are just pouncing on it to disgustingly use it as "evidence" that veganism is automatically harmful, and refusing to do your own research or making any kind of argument. You can't name a single nutrient that is lacking in vegetarianism, and you're practically revelling in the fact.. You make me sick.

Already have. Try to catch up, would you?

Anyways, I know what this is going to turn into. A bunch of 50 questions and insults in the way of vegans.

It's a useless waste of time just to satisfy people's agenda, when they're no more willing to do the most basic research that the parents of this poor girl weren't willing to do either.

Sickening.

Maybe if you ate properly, you'd feel better...

Why are you a Vegan?

 

[Lonewulf]

Take a look at this. There's "Oh, remember to take supplements" all over the place.

Where do you think supplements came from? God?

Meat.

Wow. LOL.

CFLarsen actually thinks that meat is a "nutrient". I'm laughing at this.

Do some basic research before you waste any more of my time. Until you mention any actual nutrients outside of "meat" (LOL), I'm ignoring all of your posts.

Do you eat plants that have been fertilized with animal waste?

Possibly. Are you going to argue that the only possible way to fertilize plants is with manure?

Maybe if you ate properly, you'd feel better...

"properly". That's nice. "If you believed properly, maybe you'd feel better". -- Christian.

By the way, I probably have a diet richer in meat than you do. Nice fail on an attempt to paint your opponent as "bad" simply because of their diet.

Why are you a Vegan?

And here we come, to Myth #235: If you argue that homosexuality isn't wrong, you must be gay.

You assumed I'm a vegan just because I'm tired of them being attacked as automatically wrong, or that their lifestyle is "wrong" and "bad" and "shameful", and that vegan diets are automatically stupid or ridiculous.

Not to mention the weasel words, such as claiming that vegans just eat "herbs", or that the only way to eat "properly" is to eat just like you do.

Americans, for instance, eat 100 kilograms of meat every year. This is actually above the average in developed countries by about 20 lbs. of meat. This average is much higher than in non-developed countries, who eat barely a fraction of such meat per year. I'm not terribly convinced that meat is the quintessential necessity in diets.





And I'll repeat:

CF Larsen actually thinks that "meat" is a nutrient. How ignorant can you possibly get?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Can you name a single nutrient that you cannot find from a plant or fruit or nut, or spices? A single one?

If one were feeling pedantic, one would point out that you can't get vitamin B12 from a plant, though you can get some from the bacteria in the soil that the plant has grown in. Most vegans need to eat foods fortified with B12, or to take supplements (edit - if they haven't got sufficient stores from before they became vegan).

 

[Lonewulf]

If one were feeling pedantic, one would point out that you can't get vitamin B12 from a plant, though you can get some from the bacteria in the soil that the plant has grown in. Most vegans need to eat foods fortified with B12, or to take supplements.

From here:

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetarian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer’s yeast or torula yeast. those sensitive to other yeasts can often use it.

The RDA for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily (1). About 2 rounded teaspoons of large flake Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast provides the recommended amount of vitamin B12 for adults (2). A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.

Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. For example, Nature’s Path Optimum Power cereal does contain vitamin B12 at this time and about a half cup of this cereal will provide 2.4 micrograms of vitamin B12 (3). We recommend checking the label of your favorite cereal since manufacturers have been known to stop including vitamin B12.

Other sources of vitamin B12 are vitamin B12 fortified soy milk, vitamin B12 fortified meat analogues (food made from wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry, or fish), and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements that do not contain animal products.

I personally drink Chocolate Soymilk. I believe that's also fortified with vitamin B12.

2 seconds with a google search, by the way.

Yeast is a fungus, though, not a plant. So for that, I'll admit, yes, you can be pedantic and say that.

 

[sophia8]

Reading the article properly, it seems that the parents weren't living in some rural commune, but in Glasgow. Which makes it even stranger that the girl's condition wasn't spotted much earlier. There's got to be more to the story than this.

I think it's worth repeating myself, if only to give those who aren't interested in a flamewar something to read.

 

[Lonewulf]

I think it's worth repeating myself, if only to give those who aren't interested in a flamewar something to read.

Eh, it's no problem. It's easy enough to avoid a flamewar when you start ignoring the people who actually think that "meat" is a nutrient.

 

[ksbluesfan]

Vitamin D would have been one of the last vitamins I would have expected to be lacking in a vegan diet. That is, by far, the easiest one to get.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Hoever to continue with the pedantry, yeast is not a plant (it belongs to the fungi kingdom). Yes I know vegans can eat fungi, but you seem to have omitted fungi from your list (plant, fruit, nut, spice), so I was technically correct that you cannot get B12 from "a plant or fruit or nut, or spices".

And fortification is really just the same as supplementation, except that the supplement has already been added to the food for you, rather than having to take it in pill form.

Please don't take this as me arguing against veganism per se, it was purely a point of pedantry.

 

[Lonewulf]

Pedantry is fun, and about as useful as a scientologist giving medical advice.

Okay, that was unnecessarily harsh, I know.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I remember reading something recently about rickets in the UK and how it was more common among ethnic minority groups (I think the specfic piece I read was about asian cmmunities in Bradford). This is because their darker skin makes it difficult to produce enough vitamin D from sunlight in countries like the UK. Pure speculation, but this could be a combination of a poorly planned diet, a child with dark skin and not enough sunshine in Glasgow.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Pedantry is fun, and about as useful as a scientologist giving medical advice.

Okay, that was unnecessarily harsh, I know.

Not harsh at all - it was a completely useless contribution to the thread, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

If ths does come down to the girl's particular diet, I think blaming all veganism for this particular case would be akin to blaming the 'omnivorous diet' for the state of health of a very overweight kid with diabetes for example.

 

[GreyICE]

Veganism doesn't lead to a poor diet.

Oh wait, yes it does. Does it necessarily mean that your diet is poor? No. But unless you're willing to put lots and lots of time and effort into research, vitamins, and other supplements, it will lead to a poor diet, especially for a growing kid with totally different nutritional requirements from a healthy adult.

95% of veganism (Not a real statistic) is caused by woo, IMHO. Stupid beliefs, stupid practice. It's far, far, far worse than vegetarianism in terms of woo. And when people decide to practice a dietary plan, not from a desire to obtain proper nutrition, but from some weird philosophy, the nutrition frequently suffers.

If you're one of the ones who practices veganism, but gets proper nutritional supplements, good job! You've chosen to protest animal farming (maybe for the cruel practices, maybe for the resource use), but you haven't let that get in the way of scientific reality. And you chose to protest in the only effective way - with your pocketbook. You can even (if you're a healthy adult who is not pregnant) get all of your nutritional needs without animal products. It's not easy, but it can be done.

If you haven't done the level of research needed, and become a vegan anyway, then you're an idiot, plain and simple.

 

[CFLarsen]

Where do you think supplements came from? God?

Wow. LOL.

CFLarsen actually thinks that meat is a "nutrient". I'm laughing at this.

You should. It was a joke. Obvious to some, others, not.

Do some basic research before you waste any more of my time. Until you mention any actual nutrients outside of "meat" (LOL), I'm ignoring all of your posts.

But, since you are not...

Possibly. Are you going to argue that the only possible way to fertilize plants is with manure?

No, not at all.

"properly". That's nice. "If you believed properly, maybe you'd feel better". -- Christian.

By the way, I probably have a diet richer in meat than you do. Nice fail on an attempt to paint your opponent as "bad" simply because of their diet.

Again, you miss the joke. Ah, well.

And here we come, to Myth #235: If you argue that homosexuality isn't wrong, you must be gay.

You assumed I'm a vegan just because I'm tired of them being attacked as automatically wrong, or that their lifestyle is "wrong" and "bad" and "shameful", and that vegan diets are automatically stupid or ridiculous.

Not to mention the weasel words, such as claiming that vegans just eat "herbs", or that the only way to eat "properly" is to eat just like you do.

Americans, for instance, eat 100 kilograms of meat every year. This is actually above the average in developed countries by about 20 lbs. of meat. This average is much higher than in non-developed countries, who eat barely a fraction of such meat per year. I'm not terribly convinced that meat is the quintessential necessity in diets.

My, what temper.

OK, so you're not a Vegan. Yet, you fail to see that the silliness in Vegans aiming for a non-animal food consumption, yet they have to go through all sorts of hoops to avoid it - but still can't get around that their veggies are positively infested with animal parts, one way or another.

And I'll repeat:

CF Larsen actually thinks that "meat" is a nutrient. How ignorant can you possibly get?

How humor-deprived can you possibly get?

Since you are ignoring all my posts, I take it you are not going to answer my question about krelnik?

 

[Miss Whiplash]

Eh, it's no problem. It's easy enough to avoid a flamewar when you start ignoring the people who actually think that "meat" is a nutrient.[/QUOTEI]

I just had a delicious burger. Have a bite....

 

[paximperium]

Veganism is nothing more than a form of extremism if you ask me. Very few vegans I know, stick to that lifestyle purely for "health" related or preferential reason as opposed to certain people who tend to be vegetarians. I've done enough research in opposition towards veganism to conclude that it can be healthy if done right BUT oh, it can be done wrong so easily, especially by New Age anti-science morons.

However, despite the sarcastic flame bait coming from CFLarsen, I'm going to side with Lonewulf on this one since I have yet to hear a single well thought out argument from the Anti-Vegans except innuendos and as Lonewulf put, "woo words".

You should. It was a joke. Obvious to some, others, not.

But, since you are not...

No, not at all.

Again, you miss the joke. Ah, well.

My, what temper.

OK, so you're not a Vegan. Yet, you fail to see that the silliness in Vegans aiming for a non-animal food consumption, yet they have to go through all sorts of hoops to avoid it - but still can't get around that their veggies are positively infested with animal parts, one way or another.

How humor-deprived can you possibly get?

Since you are ignoring all my posts, I take it you are not going to answer my question about krelnik?

I see irrelevant dogmatic opposition to a position. I see sarcasm, side-stepping of issues and condescension. Not a good impression.

 

[CFLarsen]

Veganism is nothing more than a form of extremism if you ask me. Very few vegans I know, stick to that lifestyle purely for "health" related or preferential reason as opposed to certain people who tend to be vegetarians. I've done enough research in opposition towards veganism to conclude that it can be healthy if done right BUT oh, it can be done wrong so easily, especially by New Age anti-science morons.

However, despite the sarcastic flame bait coming from CFLarsen, I'm going to side with Lonewulf on this one since I have yet to hear a single well thought out argument from the Anti-Vegans except innuendos and as Lonewulf put, "woo words".


I see irrelevant dogmatic opposition to a position. I see sarcasm, side-stepping of issues and condescension. Not a good impression.

You forgot one word.

"Supplements".

 

[paximperium]

You forgot one word.

"Supplements".

And that somehow justify your opposition to it?

And that somehow justifies your condescending tone in your posts?
Are you posting to debate and change other people's minds or make yourself feel better?