12-year old girl with an 80-year old spine

[CFLarsen]

Educate myself about what? Again, yes Vegans take supplements. So? Perhaps when you produce a scientific paper that shows how unhealthy veganism can be(Hint: Try looking up the a large British study that spans 17years on this-then look up the several papers concerning heart disease, cancer, nutrient deficiencies etc. You can also present several of the papers that show bone deformities, underweight babies etc.) Perhaps then, I'll take you seriously.

What business is it of yours that being Vegan is hard?

What a big straw man you have. Anyway so what?
What business is it of yours why people do something that is inherently not harmful. What are you, the thought police?


Like I've mentioned many times, veganism isn;t natural or even super healthy but if done right, it isn't harmful. What business is it of yours what other people do if it is not harmful?


So? Do you dislike veganism because of its health problems or just because you don't like its practitioners?

What do you want? legislate morality or something?

None of this Chris Crocker drama, please.

To do an adequate job of answering this question I would have to go into a lot of unpleasant details involving an extremely traumatic event I would prefer not to dredge up in public, so, personal reasons covers most of it.

And that's perfectly fine. But then, you are not not eating those things because of Veganistic ideals, but because of the same reasons Elder Bush doesn't eat broccoli.

Hey, I don't like chicken feet much either.

To some extent I also wish to avoid doing unnecessary harm to other living creatures, although I readily draw lines. If a head of broccoli is too slow to run away from me, I just might eat it. And if our entire society collapses in some horrible apocalyptic way, the pigeons that roost on our garage roof might be well advised to leave before lunchtime.

But then, you think I do harm to other living creatures, when I eat cow.

 

[paximperium]

None of this Chris Crocker drama, please.

Yup. You are a bigot. You're not interested in reasoned debate and are here purely to spew hatred at people who are different from you.

I will not bother to further debate you.

 

[Travis]

This all reminds me of when my College adopted a mandatory Vegan policy. Which meant that not only could you not buy meat/dairy products on campus but you couldn't bring any, or consume any, on campus either. Needless to say the campus legal department about had a stroke and got this rescinded before it ever took effect but not before I made my own vociferous objection. Of course doing so got me labeled as an "animal butcherer" or "creature torturer" for the rest of my enrollment there. Now, even after all that, I don't hate Vegans........ but I do everything I can, where possible, to avoid them. I just don't like being around people who think I'm some sort of horrid sadistic monster just because I eat a bacon-cheeseburger every now and then.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yup. You are a bigot. You're not interested in reasoned debate and are here purely to spew hatred at people who are different from you.

I will not bother to further debate you.

Debate the issues, then.

Just a suggestion, of course.

 

[Mojo]

Purely speculation on my part, but the parents may have considered supplements to be part of "Big Pharma", and/or not natural.

No, they're part of "Big Quacka".

 

[Dysphemist]

@ CFLarson:

Using aimal poop as fertiliser for a garden is hardly a point to use in opposition to veganism (edit.).

Myself being an omnivore, in this argument I definately side with Lonewulf.


As for what the actual thread is about: as others have already said, it's the parents fault... not the vegan diet.

 

[CFLarsen]

@ CFLarson:

Larsen.

Using aimal poop as fertiliser for a garden is hardly a point to use in opposition to a vegan.

Well, then, how far does one have to be removed from animal products to be considered a Vegan? Why is it OK to use animal feces but not animal products, like milk or eggs?

Which leads to the question: What will Vegans do about the existing cows and chickens?

They could let the cows and chickens die of old age, but what about their milk/egg production? You can't leave a cow unmilked. The chicken will lay an egg approximately once a day, regardless of what Vegans think.

So, you gotta milk the cow, and you have a lot of eggs lying around.

Do we destroy food - in a world where millions starve? How ethical is that?

 

[Dysphemist]

Possibly it is considered that taking from a cow its dairy products is exploitation of the cow? Animals are going to poo anyway, and if the animals are pets or are not being exploited then taking that poo to grow plants that are able to be eaten is no big deal/a very economical way to eat.

I don't know much about reason why vegans choose to become vegans. Principles...? Anyway, the why doesn't matter in most cases - people can do what they want. Though, when a child becomes involved some action should be taken. Not against the actual diet, but against the parents who have wrongly chosen the diet for the children they are supposed to care for.

If you are going to attack anything in this forum it should be negligent parenting...

 

[Dysphemist]

What will Vegans do about the existing cows and chickens?

They could let the cows and chickens die of old age, but what about their milk/egg production? You can't leave a cow unmilked. The chicken will lay an egg approximately once a day, regardless of what Vegans think.

So, you gotta milk the cow, and you have a lot of eggs lying around.

Find me a specific example of vegetarians owning a farm and not properly handling the produce of the animals and this argument could hold up... Otherwise - ???

Vegans don't go to supermarkets and smash all the eggs and spill all the milk so that other people cannot consume them, do they?

I don't see vegans in the street advocating how bad omnivore characteristics are, and that all meat eaters should be persecuted? It's just a lifestyle choice; ranting about it isn't going to change anything either.

 

[Diamond]

A vegan diet is perfectly healthy as long as you have the nutritional requirements well in mind. Supplements would have prevented this.

A "Mars Bar" diet is perfectly healthy just so long as you take the supplements to get the correct extra nutrients not supplied in Mars Bars.

I think we can file the original story under "Extreme Parental Abuse"

 

[CFLarsen]

Possibly it is considered that taking from a cow its dairy products is exploitation of the cow?

...cows have a right to their own milk?

What are you going to do with the milk? Throw it out?

Animals are going to poo anyway, and if the animals are pets or are not being exploited then taking that poo to grow plants that are able to be eaten is no big deal/a very economical way to eat.

There are 1.3 billion cattle in the world today. You want to feed all of them but not get anything out of them - except poo?

I don't know much about reason why vegans choose to become vegans. Principles...?

Principles have consequences.

Anyway, the why doesn't matter in most cases - people can do what they want. Though, when a child becomes involved some action should be taken. Not against the actual diet, but against the parents who have wrongly chosen the diet for the children they are supposed to care for.

If you are going to attack anything in this forum it should be negligent parenting...

It isn't just about the children, but also what adults can do to themselves - and what they advocate to others.

Find me a specific example of vegetarians owning a farm and not properly handling the produce of the animals and this argument could hold up... Otherwise - ???

Not vegetarians. Vegans. Two different things.

Vegans don't go to supermarkets and smash all the eggs and spill all the milk so that other people cannot consume them, do they?

I don't see vegans in the street advocating how bad omnivore characteristics are, and that all meat eaters should be persecuted? It's just a lifestyle choice; ranting about it isn't going to change anything either.

But if it is ethically wrong to "exploit" the cows and chickens, what does that say about those of us who do use these products?

We are ethically wrong to do so.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Why can't you just leave a cow unmilked (or at least after tapering down the milking)? Surely in a natural situation the calf would stop feeding from its mother at some point and the cow would stop being "milked" by it. I assume that lactation works in a similar way for all mammals - my first child stopped breastfeeding quite gradually, and I had no problems with this. My second child stopped very abruptly and I was very uncomfortable for about a week, but that's all.

What exactly is your problem with vegans supposedly thinking they are ethically superior to you? Surely your ethics differ from many other people. Where you hold yourself to a more restrictive ethical standard, do you think you are morally superior to those who do not? Does this make you wrong in anyway? Why is this a problem?

 

[Miss Whiplash]

I think of it more as "gateway to woo". Not every vegan is a fool, but a rather alarming number of them are. It's *possible* to be a healthy vegan if you put the work into it, but a high proportion of them are also other weird alt-health nuts, like anti-vaccers and homeopaths. Look at the ads in vegan publications...

I call them WiccaPetaVegans as most vegans are into New Age crap.

Mind you, I'm biased against vegetarianism on a personal level. As I'm over 40 , I bowed to pressure from friends to adapt the "more healthy" lifestyle of a vegetarian. I followed all the guides and recipes and, as a result, sent my triglycerides skyrocketing to the point where I had to be put on Glucophage. Since vegan diets can be carb-bombs, I became insulin resistant and put on 20 lbs, too.

After going to a nutritionist, I eat a balanced diet. I get the bulk of my protein from lean meats, eggs, and dairy products. I've lost 35 pound, I'm off the diabetes meds, and my lipids have come down to normal.

The point of my tirade is diets are not one-size-fits-all. If a person is a vegan and they are healthy, fine and dandy. However, I can't stand for a vegan to proselytize. Many embrace their diet with religious fervor. It's their way or you are doomed!!! My vegan experiment cost me >$3500. Spare me!!

BTW- Cows make nice belts, shoes and coats too.

 

[DoubtingStephen]

But then, you think I do harm to other living creatures, when I eat cow.

Honestly, I never think about what you eat.

 

[krelnik]

I'm not surprised this thread has raged on and on about veganism. I added a vegetarianism / veganism page to What's The Harm a while back, and it seems to spark alot of criticism. I've gotten a number of emails about it.

Most of my critics seem to somehow overlook that all but one of the cases involve a small child. They also miss the fact that the site is not called "these things are bad", it is called "what's the harm". The distinction is that you need to be aware that some things can cause harm to you, if you are not careful.

For example, if you want to go pay a tarot reader for a reading, simply for humor and ironic value, I would be the last person to stop you. Heck, I might come with you. But there's a difference between doing that and using tarot to make important life decisions, and that's where harm enters in.

Back to veganism, again I have absolutely no objections to those who choose this diet. However, if you choose such a diet for your child, and you have not done the additional homework about what this entails, you are being an idiot and you deserve to have your child taken away from you.

An infant's nutritional needs are very different from a small child's, and both of them are different from an adult. You may be well aware of what supplements you need as an adult to be healthy and vegan. But are you aware of what your infant needs? What about your toddler?

That's my only point on this matter: be vegan and enjoy it. But as soon as you are choosing veganism for someone else you need to be much more serious & responsible about the details.

 

[CFLarsen]

Why can't you just leave a cow unmilked (or at least after tapering down the milking)? Surely in a natural situation the calf would stop feeding from its mother at some point and the cow would stop being "milked" by it.

Gradually, over the generations, sure. But then, you are not following the principle. You can't bend the principle of not "exploiting" animals.

Cows as they exist today have been bred for our "exploitation" over the millennia - they are a far cry from wild cows that can manage on their own.

I assume that lactation works in a similar way for all mammals - my first child stopped breastfeeding quite gradually, and I had no problems with this. My second child stopped very abruptly and I was very uncomfortable for about a week, but that's all.

But that's because the child had reached a stage where it didn't need breast-milk anymore.

You didn't stop giving the kid dairy products, did you?

What exactly is your problem with vegans supposedly thinking they are ethically superior to you? Surely your ethics differ from many other people. Where you hold yourself to a more restrictive ethical standard, do you think you are morally superior to those who do not? Does this make you wrong in anyway? Why is this a problem?

I don't like it when people tell me I'm a bad person for eating certain things. E.g., I don't like it when Muslims think bad of me for eating pork. What is the difference? I can't see any.

I call them WiccaPetaVegans as most vegans are into New Age crap.

Mind you, I'm biased against vegetarianism on a personal level. As I'm over 40 , I bowed to pressure from friends to adapt the "more healthy" lifestyle of a vegetarian. I followed all the guides and recipes and, as a result, sent my triglycerides skyrocketing to the point where I had to be put on Glucophage. Since vegan diets can be carb-bombs, I became insulin resistant and put on 20 lbs, too.

After going to a nutritionist, I eat a balanced diet. I get the bulk of my protein from lean meats, eggs, and dairy products. I've lost 35 pound, I'm off the diabetes meds, and my lipids have come down to normal.

The point of my tirade is diets are not one-size-fits-all. If a person is a vegan and they are healthy, fine and dandy. However, I can't stand for a vegan to proselytize. Many embrace their diet with religious fervor. It's their way or you are doomed!!! My vegan experiment cost me >$3500. Spare me!!

Well said.

BTW- Cows make nice belts, shoes and coats too.

They do indeed. When you meet a Vegan, notice what they have on their feet.

Honestly, I never think about what you eat.

Now that you know that I eat cow - and with great pleasure, too - what do you think of that? Ethically, morally.

 

[CFLarsen]

I'm not surprised this thread has raged on and on about veganism. I added a vegetarianism / veganism page to What's The Harm a while back, and it seems to spark alot of criticism. I've gotten a number of emails about it.

Most of my critics seem to somehow overlook that all but one of the cases involve a small child. They also miss the fact that the site is not called "these things are bad", it is called "what's the harm". The distinction is that you need to be aware that some things can cause harm to you, if you are not careful.

For example, if you want to go pay a tarot reader for a reading, simply for humor and ironic value, I would be the last person to stop you. Heck, I might come with you. But there's a difference between doing that and using tarot to make important life decisions, and that's where harm enters in.

Back to veganism, again I have absolutely no objections to those who choose this diet. However, if you choose such a diet for your child, and you have not done the additional homework about what this entails, you are being an idiot and you deserve to have your child taken away from you.

An infant's nutritional needs are very different from a small child's, and both of them are different from an adult. You may be well aware of what supplements you need as an adult to be healthy and vegan. But are you aware of what your infant needs? What about your toddler?

That's my only point on this matter: be vegan and enjoy it. But as soon as you are choosing veganism for someone else you need to be much more serious & responsible about the details.

Well said, but there's more to it than that: When you harm yourself, it also becomes a problem.

Just think of Breatharians.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Gradually, over the generations, sure. But then, you are not following the principle. You can't bend the principle of not "exploiting" animals.

Cows as they exist today have been bred for our "exploitation" over the millennia - they are a far cry from wild cows that can manage on their own.

Are you saying that you have evidence that cows cope less well with the withdrawal of milking than any other mammal because of the way they have been bred? If you have I would be interested to see it.

But that's because the child had reached a stage where it didn't need breast-milk anymore.

What has that got to do with anything. The effect on the mother has nothing to do with the reason for withdrawal. Many women stop breastfeeding, for example, because they are going back to work and have a similar uncomfortable few days/week. I have no idea what you point was here, could you explain please?

You didn't stop giving the kid dairy products, did you?

Why is that any of your business and what has it to do with this discussion?

I don't like it when people tell me I'm a bad person for eating certain things. E.g., I don't like it when Muslims think bad of me for eating pork. What is the difference? I can't see any.

I'm sure people who agree with the death penalty don't like the implication from "anti's" that they are a bad person for thinking that. I'm sure pro choicers don't like it when pro lifers think they are bad people for their beliefs on abortion (and vice versa). Again what has you "not liking it" got to do with anything?

They do indeed. When you meet a Vegan, notice what they have on their feet.

Most vegans (and some vegetarians) reject the use of leather.

 

[krelnik]

Well said, but there's more to it than that: When you harm yourself, it also becomes a problem.

Just think of Breatharians.

True. But that strays into the ethical question of whether suicide/euthanasia/etc is allowable by our society. Well beyond the scope of this thread, I'm afraid.

 

[CFLarsen]

Are you saying that you have evidence that cows cope less well with the withdrawal of milking than any other mammal because of the way they have been bred? If you have I would be interested to see it.

What has that got to do with anything. The effect on the mother has nothing to do with the reason for withdrawal. Many women stop breastfeeding, for example, because they are going back to work and have a similar uncomfortable few days/week. I have no idea what you point was here, could you explain please?

I am saying that cows today are bred to our needs, not to their own. They are our creation, and are not "natural" animals, any more than dogs or cats. They sure have no rights of their own.

Women are a bit different than cows.

Why is that any of your business and what has it to do with this discussion?

It has everything to do with this discussion: The kid made the decision, not you. Its body didn't need your breastmilk anymore.

With the case mentioned in the OP, the parents made all the decisions for their kid, even those that harmed it.

I'm sure people who agree with the death penalty don't like the implication from "anti's" that they are a bad person for thinking that. I'm sure pro choicers don't like it when pro lifers think they are bad people for their beliefs on abortion (and vice versa). Again what has you "not liking it" got to do with anything?

Because it puts me lower on their scale, simply because I don't live up to their demands.

Do you like it when a Muslim thinks badly of you because you eat pork?

Most vegans (and some vegetarians) reject the use of leather.

They sure don't go hiking in the woods much, then.