12 year old files for divorce

[Ziggurat]

Since the mother has no power, she has no way to protect the daughter.

It's worse than that. Victimizing other women is often a way for a woman to achieve some measure of power. Which is why mothers often participate in organizing honor killings of their own daughters.

The cultural context in which this devaluation occurs is social although it may be influenced by religion. Nearly every society on earth has, at some point, seen women as somehow less than men.

True, but the pathologies here are not universal. There is something peculiarly evil going on. Whether it's tribal or religious or some mix, I can't say for sure, and at the end of the day I'm not sure it even matters.

This child abuse is only the most extreme example.

Sadly, it's not.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

It's not just women, though. You can't treat only women like cattle without starting to treat everyone like cattle. Which is why it's not just women and girls who get sexually abused in such tribal Islamic societies (though they bear the worst of it), but boys too. And of course, there's spillover into non-sexual behavior too. It's not a coincidence that groups which so devalue the worth of women will sanction indiscriminate violence as well.

I happened to catch a frontline episode the other night about the practice of selling boys to wealthy men in afghanistan. there's a link below which allows you to watch the program online.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/

in cultures like this which are repressive, it is important to remember that girls are not the only ones exploited.

the wonderful book 'Persepolis" which is an autobiographical novel about a girl's coming of age in revolutionary iran. She talks about how school boys aged around 13 or so would be drafted in scores to be martyrs for various wars and conflicts at that time. There was one especially poignant moment where a friend of the family was so upset because her son and other young boys at his school had been given plastic keys painted gold. They were told that if they volunteered to be martyrs, that key would get them into paradise when they were killed.


edit- oops, hadn't realized that was the same link as the one posted in your post!

 

[bookitty]

It's worse than that. Victimizing other women is often a way for a woman to achieve some measure of power. Which is why mothers often participate in organizing honor killings of their own daughters.



True, but the pathologies here are not universal. There is something peculiarly evil going on. Whether it's tribal or religious or some mix, I can't say for sure, and at the end of the day I'm not sure it even matters.



Sadly, it's not.

There is evil here, or at least the worst of what thinking animals are capable of. It's not just the actions that are so horrifying, it is the lengths that people will go to keep justifying those actions. In order for things to change, there needs to be some recognition that this is wrong, absolutely wrong.

It is also important to remember that those of us who are not involved see only the worse aspects. There are many man and women who are fighting against this evil in the Middle East and Africa. They don't get the same press as the horror and it weakens their position.

 

[fuelair]

What I don't understand is; how can they take some aspects of their faith and say, "well, gee that was a long time ago, and they just didn't know any better," when it comes to practices that are no longer socially acceptable, but when viewing the holy book on the whole, they take it as undeniable fact?

(Bible)I'm sure there is some reason for the two ways (Bible) of looking at made up texts(Bible) so that you can skip those you don't want (Bible) but make the one's you do absolute requirements(Bible)!

 

[bookitty]

It's not just women, though. You can't treat only women like cattle without starting to treat everyone like cattle. Which is why it's not just women and girls who get sexually abused in such tribal Islamic societies (though they bear the worst of it), but boys too. And of course, there's spillover into non-sexual behavior too. It's not a coincidence that groups which so devalue the worth of women will sanction indiscriminate violence as well.

My god. I've just finished watching the entire thing. It's horrific.

The worst part comes during the epilogue. One of the boys is rescued and returned home. His family is relocated and given money that will make their life comfortable and reduce the chance that the boy will be sold back. The amount is $1800. Less than $2000 means that this 11 year old child can avoid being passed around and used.

It's a chilling reminder of the powerlessness that poverty breeds.

 

[Brian-M]

In 2008, ten year old Nujood Ali was granted divorce from her husband of two months, after suffering beatings and rape. (She published a book about it in 2009, the English-language version was published in March 2010.)

Here are some links to articles about an 8 year old girl filing for divorce...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7579616.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8026545.stm
Apparently the divorce was granted in an out of court settlement after a judge rejected two attempts to get her a divorce.

It's a sick world sometimes.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

Among other outrages, here is what strikes me about the fact that "Some judges and clerics cite the Prophet Muhammad's marriage to a 9-year-old as justification for child brides."

Yo, how is this even an issue?! Seriously, how is this even a debate?

Who in the world would want a child bride? Why would you want it? What grown man would want an 8-year-old or 9-year-old or 11-year-old "wife"? Why are other men defending him when he does this? Why is it important to them that he get a child as his "spouse"?

A 50-year-old man with a 20-year-old woman who was married off to the old goat for money, ok, that's gross and creepy but that at least is understandable. I'd see why the old turd would buy himself a young wife and why he'd want to. It's immoral, exploitative, sexist to the extreme and absolutely disgusting but at least they are both adults.

A middle aged or elderly man with a child young enough to be his daughter, granddaughter or even great-granddaughter? What kind of "married life" would you ever have with her? What in the world would you talk about to her? How would you ever even...interact?

She's 9, you are 60. The only thing you'll ever have in common is your last name.

Why don't you want a woman you can have even a semblance of a relationship with? Don't you want a real wife or real girlfriend? Why do 40-year-olds want to marry 12-year-olds? How is it any good for them?

 

[kerikiwi]

Why don't you want a woman you can have even a semblance of a relationship with? Don't you want a real wife or real girlfriend? Why do 40-year-olds want to marry 12-year-olds? How is it any good for them?

Marriage isn't a romantic or even a sexual relationship in all cultures.
It is sometimes a political institution used to forge social connections, and produce heirs, having nothing to do with sexual attraction or romantic love.
Look at the British royal family for an example.

 

[barrymore]

The human mind is as malleable as a piece of clay and can be molded to believe anything. And even if one does not truly believe in something, peer pressure and potential shame can certainly discourage vocal dissent.

 

[Delvo]

What grown man would want an 8-year-old or 9-year-old or 11-year-old "wife"?... What kind of "married life" would you ever have with her? What in the world would you talk about to her? How would you ever even...interact?

They have no expectation of an interacting, conversational relationship. Such a relationship is something they've never even seen before in their sex-segregated lives unless they've met or watched documentaries about foreigners from alien cultures like us, so they'd have little or no concept of it as something that even exists as an option, nevermind whether it's something to actually want. And even those who think of it at all aren't likely to want it because it's so far outside their experience, having never had even much of a friendship with a woman before either. So whatever they're looking for in a marriage, it isn't that.

And physically/sexually, these men don't even see adult women as often as we do, to the point of almost never in some cases, not just because they don't mingle but also because of the clothing designed to hide anything feminine about them. So what is there for their minds to latch onto as the image of femininity? Visually, the most feminine people in their experience would be not women but pubescent or prepubescent girls.

 

[Bikewer]

A few years ago, 60 minutes did a segment on a group known as The Travelers. Well-known to law enforcement as con-men and grifters, these folks live in a loose community where the menfolk set out each year to perpetrate all manner of scams, mostly to do with construction/repair work.
These folks are often referred to as "gypsies", though I don't believe there is any actual Romani descent; it's more a reference to their enculturated grifter lifestyle.
Anyway, a facet of this culture is "beauty pageants" for very young girls. Much like the big, commercialized kiddie beauty/talent contests we hear about, these are closed events for the community, and are intended to put these very young girls on display for the menfolk of the community, sort of a screening for future brides.
Often these girls will be "promised" to much older men on the basis of these shows.....

As noted....A widespread practice.

 

[bookitty]

And physically/sexually, these men don't even see adult women as often as we do, to the point of almost never in some cases, not just because they don't mingle but also because of the clothing designed to hide anything feminine about them. So what is there for their minds to latch onto as the image of femininity? Visually, the most feminine people in their experience would be not women but pubescent or prepubescent girls.

That's a very good point. In the bacha bazi documentary, when the boys are dressed as women, only their hands, face and feet are bare. The outfit is long pants and a tunic, extremely conservative. There is no make-up and no long hair. If you weren't told that they were wearing feminine clothing, it might not be obvious.

Until you see the little girls in the background scenes. They are wearing the same type of dress, a tunic and pants. Women, of course, are covered from head to toes in burqas. The boys are dressed as prepubescent girls.

Which is odd. If children are given this much freedom in dress, it suggests that sexualizing children is not accepted. If the society accepted the idea that children were sexual beings, it would cover them up.

 

[barrymore]

A few years ago, 60 minutes did a segment on a group known as The Travelers. Well-known to law enforcement as con-men and grifters, these folks live in a loose community where the menfolk set out each year to perpetrate all manner of scams, mostly to do with construction/repair work.
These folks are often referred to as "gypsies", though I don't believe there is any actual Romani descent; it's more a reference to their enculturated grifter lifestyle.
Anyway, a facet of this culture is "beauty pageants" for very young girls. Much like the big, commercialized kiddie beauty/talent contests we hear about, these are closed events for the community, and are intended to put these very young girls on display for the menfolk of the community, sort of a screening for future brides.
Often these girls will be "promised" to much older men on the basis of these shows.....

As noted....A widespread practice.

Is this in the US, or what?

 

[bookitty]

Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

Among other outrages, here is what strikes me about the fact that "Some judges and clerics cite the Prophet Muhammad's marriage to a 9-year-old as justification for child brides."

Yo, how is this even an issue?! Seriously, how is this even a debate?

Who in the world would want a child bride? Why would you want it? What grown man would want an 8-year-old or 9-year-old or 11-year-old "wife"? Why are other men defending him when he does this? Why is it important to them that he get a child as his "spouse"?

A 50-year-old man with a 20-year-old woman who was married off to the old goat for money, ok, that's gross and creepy but that at least is understandable. I'd see why the old turd would buy himself a young wife and why he'd want to. It's immoral, exploitative, sexist to the extreme and absolutely disgusting but at least they are both adults.

A middle aged or elderly man with a child young enough to be his daughter, granddaughter or even great-granddaughter? What kind of "married life" would you ever have with her? What in the world would you talk about to her? How would you ever even...interact?

She's 9, you are 60. The only thing you'll ever have in common is your last name.

Why don't you want a woman you can have even a semblance of a relationship with? Don't you want a real wife or real girlfriend? Why do 40-year-olds want to marry 12-year-olds? How is it any good for them?

It is the disgusting end result of a society in which women are second class citizens. If they have no voice, no power, then there is no reason why they shouldn't be used. It's like veal. People know that veal calves live short, painful lives but they figure "Hey, they're just going to grow up to be meat cows anyway."

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

A few years ago, 60 minutes did a segment on a group known as The Travelers. Well-known to law enforcement as con-men and grifters, these folks live in a loose community where the menfolk set out each year to perpetrate all manner of scams, mostly to do with construction/repair work.
These folks are often referred to as "gypsies", though I don't believe there is any actual Romani descent; it's more a reference to their enculturated grifter lifestyle.
Anyway, a facet of this culture is "beauty pageants" for very young girls. Much like the big, commercialized kiddie beauty/talent contests we hear about, these are closed events for the community, and are intended to put these very young girls on display for the menfolk of the community, sort of a screening for future brides.
Often these girls will be "promised" to much older men on the basis of these shows.....

As noted....A widespread practice.

I think I saw this. It sounds very familiar. Do you have a link by any chance?

 

[JJM 777]

Here's what I don't understand.
(...)
how entire SOCIETIES
(...)
I mean, how can this happen?
(...)
How can enough people get behind this

Middle Eastern politics is not about "enough people" supporting something, as the countries are monarchies or other kind of dictatorships, either de jure or de facto. The dictators dictate, and people will agree if they want to keep their heads on their shoulders.

Part of the story is that a certain Western country supports these regimes, because of its own interests unrelated to the human rights or democracy situation in these countries.

I wouldn't be so rude as to mention which Western country I am thinking about. They are the Greatest Nation anyway, a moral leader for the world to follow. So I hear them say about themselves.

 

[bookitty]

Middle Eastern politics is not about "enough people" supporting something, as the countries are monarchies or other kind of dictatorships, either de jure or de facto. The dictators dictate, and people will agree if they want to keep their heads on their shoulders.

Part of the story is that a certain Western country supports these regimes, because of its own interests unrelated to the human rights or democracy situation in these countries.

I wouldn't be so rude as to mention which Western country I am thinking about. They are the Greatest Nation anyway, a moral leader for the world to follow. So I hear them say about themselves.

There is no denying that America's dependence on oil has lead to some incredibly immoral actions in the Middle East. But it's a bit much to blame a 200+ plus year old nation for practices that go back to the BC's.

 

[kerikiwi]

There is no denying that America's dependence on oil has lead to some incredibly immoral actions in the Middle East. But it's a bit much to blame a 200+ plus year old nation for practices that go back to the BC's.

The age of the nation supporting the immoral regime is irrelevant, as is the length of time practices have existed.

 

[bookitty]

The age of the nation supporting the immoral regime is irrelevant, as is the length of time practices have existed.

Interesting thought. Are you suggesting that without the political influence of the US, that the Islamic Middle East would allow more freedom for women?

 

[fuelair]

Is this in the US, or what?

The scamming and such definitely is - as is the use of children (not mentioned in the post you refer to) in criminal activity. We had a long run of annual strikes of this in Nashville - including at the Tenneco (convenience astore/gas station I worked at in the mid 70s). I am happy to announce that though they ripped us (and I learned the technique well so I could call police fast if they ever tried again) but they were stuck with the crap cigarettes they stole and tried to exchange on me for better brands. (Since I knew they had not purchased them from me, I asked for the sales slip. Which, of course, they did not have.)

Would not be surprised about the "beauty contests".