$10K fine for not going through TSA screening?

And I think that the non-opposition of these scans and pat downs is stupid.

Harm is subjective.

To someone who's been sexually assaulted, a pat down of their genitals against their will from a complete stranger may very well be harmful.

You bought a ticket against your will? You were taken to the airport against your will? You got in the security screening line against your will?

And if someone is emotionally disturbed enough to think of a "pat down" as an assault they shouldn't be on an airplane anyways.

The one time I got a "pat down" in an airport (their metal detector wand thing was malfunctioning, and the walk through had been way too sensitive so the underwire in my bra set it off), it was drastically less invasive than what is being proposed here, it was done by a woman, and it was still traumatic.

How......is this traumatic?

Heck, the idea of complete strangers seeing me basically naked (if you haven't seen unaltered versions of those scans, you don't realize just how detailed they truly are) against my will, is just as much of a personal invasion as some up-skirt jerk with a mirror taped to the top of his shoe.

And I have no problems with the scanners even if they produced a fully rendered 3d image of my naked body that was indistinguishable from a photograph of the real me.

These are, to me, very much assaults. Sexual assaults.

Right...assaults you consented to.

I should be forced to suffer flashback triggers for PTSD just to fly to see my grandparents for xmas? Really? What on earth gives the government the right to invade my person that way? Just because I dare attempt to get on a plane?

What gave the government the right to blow ten billion dollars to build the airport in the first place?

Don't want these rules? Build your own airport, finance your own airline for which you are the only customer.

Anyone who thinks this sort of searching is "reasonable" is seriously juicing the piglet.

Anyone who thinks they are "unreasonable" is obviously an anarchist. :rolleyes:
 
It doesn't really matter whether the procedures are harmful or not. The point is that people should have the right to choose whether or not they want this to be done. Invasions of privacy should not be a condition of travel.

This is just another example of government stepping into a situation where it doesn't belong - leave it up to the airlines. Airline customers can decide for themselves where to draw the line between security and privacy... there is absolutely no reason to limit people's choices in a situation like this.

What about the people that get killed by the airplane that explodes over their neighborhood? Where was their choice in the matter? What about people in another building that a plane flies into? Do they not get a say?

Also, if anybody else did what the TSA was doing they would be arrested. I am not allowed to take naked pictures of people or aggressively frisk them when they have done nothing wrong and neither should the government.

And if people who are not doctors ask to see you naked they often get arrested too. That's why there's a difference between a professional and some dude on the street.

We don't have a "right" in the same way that we don't have a right to anything else requiring another person's labor...

We should, however, not be coerced into not traveling, which is effectively what these procedures do for a lot of people.

Are you seriously suggesting that government should be able to limit your ability to freely travel? I guess anything is permissible in the name of security. :roll:

Travel and using the convenience of a modern airliner are two different things. But if we are to take your idea and run with it....why require drivers licenses to drive? Isn't that a coercion to not drive if you have a thing against learning rules? Shouldn't we just open the roads to anyone that can purchase or borrow a vehicle?
 
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What about the people that get killed by the airplane that explodes over their neighborhood? Where was their choice in the matter? What about people in another building that a plane flies into? Do they not get a say?


How do we know that you aren't planning on carrying out some massive terrorist attack in the near future, and that you don't have a good supply of guns, ammunition, explosives, and other destructive materials with which to carry out this attack? Shouldn't we be sending police officers into your home on a regular basis, to thoroughly search it, in order to make sure you're not storing up such materials in preparation for such an attack?

Shouldn't we have the police carrying out such searches of everyone's homes on a regular basis? How secure can you be if there's a possibility that your neighbor is about to carry out such an attack in which you might be killed or otherwise harmed?

Well, in this country, our Constitution was written with the understanding that being harmed by a violent criminal attack isn't the only way our safety and security can be violated. Having strangers rifling through your home and your belongings without your consent is also such a violation, as is having your intimate body parts viewed and/or fondled without your consent.

Yes, the stakes are high. Whether it's police rifling through your home without just cause, or a TSA agent sexually molesting you at an airport, perhaps we are talking about the potential to prevent hundreds, or perhaps even thousands of people from being killed, but at the expense of having millions or even tens or hundreds of millions of violations of the rights of individuals to be secure against unreasonable search, seizure, and assault.



And if someone is emotionally disturbed enough to think of a "pat down" as an assault they shouldn't be on an airplane anyways.


Of course, that's pretty much the dictionary definition of “assault”. Apparently, you think anyone who thinks that a word means what it means is “emotionally disturbed”.

I get that there are some people who are so desperate for any kind of sexual contact that they don't see how being sexually molested by a stranger is something that one ought to object to (you're not the first such person who's made himself know on the JREF forums), but most normal, emotionally healthy people, very much prefer to have more control than that over who has intimate access to them; and take it a a great offense when someone presumes to forcibly gain such access without permission.
 
What about the people that get killed by the airplane that explodes over their neighborhood? Where was their choice in the matter? What about people in another building that a plane flies into? Do they not get a say?



And if people who are not doctors ask to see you naked they often get arrested too. That's why there's a difference between a professional and some dude on the street.



Travel and using the convenience of a modern airliner are two different things. But if we are to take your idea and run with it....why require drivers licenses to drive? Isn't that a coercion to not drive if you have a thing against learning rules? Shouldn't we just open the roads to anyone that can purchase or borrow a vehicle?

"The Product of Freedom and Security is a constant (F X S = k).Unfortunately, that constant is different for everybody . "
Larry Niven
"Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
 
I've got a solution to the whole problem, and I'm going to reveal it here on JREF. Remember where you heard it first.

1) No carry on luggage, period. In fact, all luggage and personal belongings will be flown to the destination using unmanned drone cargo planes which will avoid all population centers.

2) Everyone who wants to fly has to buy a TSA approved jumpsuit. The jumpsuit has no pockets, and is kevlar reinforced. The zipper will be locked with a TSA approved lock.

3) No screening is necessary.

4) All passengers are herded on the plane and seated in roller coaster style seats. A restraint system comes down over the shoulders and securely fastens the passenger in their seat.

5) If a passenger feels the need to insert explosive materials into various body cavities to blow himself up while in flight, the kevlar reinforced jumpsuit will contain the blast, along with various body parts and fluids. (I haven't figured out how to keep heads from flying around the cabin, but rest assured that the research department is working diligently on this issue).

6) Did I mention, make sure you go to the bathroom before boarding? The jumpsuits are water proof, but not odor proof.

7) Have a nice flight.

We're working out some other kinks in the plan, like sound proof cocoons for children under 7, and of course the odor issue. We will not stop until you, the customer, is totally satisfied with the entire flying experience.
 
I have no problem with it. It's a cost vs benefit thing.
What, exactly, is the benefit? As far as costs, I expect the airlines are going to see quite a drop in business from people who don't like to be either photographed nude or groped by strangers.
 
Really? I'm not following the logic on this. I'd have thought preventing terrorists seizing aircraft and crashing them into buildings would be a fairly important thing for a government to do.
No way in hell are passengers going to allow terrorists to take control of an airplane again. Flight 93 proved that. There won't be any more 9/11-style attacks, unless it's the pilots themselves who are the terrorists. And no level of search can prevent that.
 
<snipped ridiculous nonsense not even worth replying to>

And if someone is emotionally disturbed enough to think of a "pat down" as an assault they shouldn't be on an airplane anyways.
Please learn the definition of "assault". One is not "emotionally disturbed" to feel that a word means exactly what it actually means. But, you know, nice moving goal posts anyway. You said these procedures aren't harmful. I provided an example where they ARE harmful, and now your response is "well, that person shouldn't be getting on an airplane anyway"? Pathetic. Really.
How......is this traumatic?
What do you mean, "how"? How is it NOT traumatic for a woman to have a complete stranger feel up her breasts against her will (and it IS against her will)? Not because she's done anything wrong, or broken any law, but because their equipment malfunctioned, and you had the "bad luck" to be wearing the same sort of clothing that every other woman wears? To be forced into it because if she doesn't "agree" she's stuck with a $10k fine, and stranded 3000 miles away from home with no way to get back? Thats coercion, and it's assault, plain and simple. Assault that you, Travis, are condoning. That a large number of the American people are condoning. All in the name of some nebulous and abstract "safety." Were this sort of thing to be done by any private person instead of the government, that person would wind up in jail.

And I have no problems with the scanners even if they produced a fully rendered 3d image of my naked body that was indistinguishable from a photograph of the real me.
That's you. Other people do have a problem with it. A big problem with it. It's an invasion of privacy and one's physical person, without reasonable cause or any sort of "warrant". Something that our constitution is supposed to protect us from, but for some reason, isn't right now.

Right...assaults you consented to.
No. Apparently you've failed to read the situation this thread is about. And it is not "consent" when it's been coerced.

What gave the government the right to blow ten billion dollars to build the airport in the first place?
Building an airport does not violate the constitution.

Don't want these rules? Build your own airport, finance your own airline for which you are the only customer.
More naivety. One would still have to fly into another airport, and leave out of that airport again. What you are suggesting is ridiculous beyond all imagination.

Anyone who thinks they are "unreasonable" is obviously an anarchist. :rolleyes:
Really? Someone is an anarchist because they actually want the constitution followed? I'd think that's the complete opposite. But you know, go ahead and make fun. Your ignorance of the issues involved is showing.
 
What about the people that get killed by the airplane that explodes over their neighborhood? Where was their choice in the matter? What about people in another building that a plane flies into? Do they not get a say?

What is the probability of this happening? Zero rational people on planet earth worry about death by speeding plane. Limiting the freedom of millions to prevent an event that has a truly negligible chance of happening is insane.

Also, by this logic its okay for the government to make any mandate that they want as long as its done with the excuse of saving the lives of potential victims. There is literally nothing that can't be done if we start basing policy off hypothetical deaths. Your imagination is the limit...

Let's have random police checkpoints on all major roads and bodyscanners in all large population centers. We will prevent a few deaths that way.

And if people who are not doctors ask to see you naked they often get arrested too. That's why there's a difference between a professional and some dude on the street.

The difference is that the doctor isn't forcing you to do anything.

Travel and using the convenience of a modern airliner are two different things.

Causing inconvenience/invasion of privacy to be a condition of using the 21st century's cheapest, quickest method of travel is nothing less than limiting my ability to travel.

You seem to be implying that if motor vehicles were outlawed then my freedom to travel isn't being restricted simply because I still have the option of walking. This is absurd, is it not?

But if we are to take your idea and run with it....why require drivers licenses to drive? Isn't that a coercion to not drive if you have a thing against learning rules? Shouldn't we just open the roads to anyone that can purchase or borrow a vehicle?

But not having driving training arguably poses a direct danger to others.

Not having TSA mandated security screenings, on the other hand, poses almost no danger whatsoever (as security would be dealt with privately), and, critically, upholds individual freedom. (apparently, its more important for you to impose your subjective value of security upon others, rather than preserve universal, equal freedom)

Again, everybody has a different opinion of what the ideal balance between security and freedom is. Why not leave it up to the individual to execute that balance in his own life? Personally, I don't believe the terrorist threat is that great and would much prefer a more convenient, less intrusive flying experience even if it means I have to give up a little of what you perceive as "security."

Funny how we are assuming that protection from terrorism is necessarily in conflict with individual freedom... almost as if they are in a direct mathematical relationship or something. This isn't the case though. Infact, most "terrorism" is a direct result of our offensive, interventionist foreign policy. We invade foreign countries and kill innocent civilians, enforce our subjective morals, engage in economic warfare that bleeds countries dry through lending, and then wonder why people want to attack us. The obvious solution is to stop bullying everybody. Viewing the problem from this... more systemic perspective (if you will)... loses of freedom seem not only immoral, but also unnecessary.

Tyrannical governments always justify freedom erosion as necessary to protect against an outside threat.
 
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You voluntarily buy a plane ticket.
You voluntarily go to the airport
You voluntarily stand in line
you refuse the body scan
You refuse the grope search
You volunteer to leave
you are fined $10,000.
This is not coercion?
Definite gap in the logic string, there...
 
You voluntarily buy a plane ticket.
You voluntarily go to the airport
You voluntarily stand in line
you refuse the body scan
You refuse the grope search
You volunteer to leave
you are fined $10,000.
This is not coercion?
Definite gap in the logic string, there...

EDIT: Didn't read your post carefully. Thought you were talking about screening coercion instead of fining coercion.

Suppose I want to travel from the US to Europe. The most economical way to do this is by commercial plane.

Now, this service purchased on the market can only be utilized by submitting to a third-party-mandated procedure that infringes upon the 4th amendment and that is potentially hazardous to my health. (backscatter machines have not been tested)

This additional condition of flight is a coercive action toward anybody who wants to uphold their privacy or has apprehensions about the safety of high-powered, untested x-ray machines.
 
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You voluntarily buy a plane ticket.
You voluntarily go to the airport
You voluntarily stand in line
you refuse the body scan
You refuse the grope search
You volunteer to leave
you are fined $10,000.
This is not coercion?
Definite gap in the logic string, there...

And the worse part to me is the unexpected randomness. You refuse the scanner and refuse to be felt up and may be fined $10K, yet 50 people in front of you and 50 people behind you in line just waltz through the metal detector and go on their merry way.

Plus the fact that they are not at every airport, so evidently we're not all THAT concerned about it, we'll just put the scanners in as we can afford them. My home airport must not be a hotbed of terrorism like Vegas.

I got scanned at Vegas a couple weeks ago and didn't even know what it was until they were doing it. Just a "Step over this way and put your feet on the footprints. Now put your hands up. Stand still." When the unit rotated around me, I figured out what it must be. No choice, no warning, no explainations. I've been pulled out for the old pat down before and didn't think much about being pulled out of line. With no carry on, its no big deal. This kind of bothered me.
 
Suppose I want to travel from the US to Europe. The most economical way to do this is by commercial plane.

Now, this service purchased on the market can only be utilized by submitting to a third-party-mandated procedure that infringes upon the 4th amendment and that is potentially hazardous to my health. (backscatter machines have not been tested)

This additional condition of flight is a coercive action toward anybody who wants to uphold their privacy or has apprehensions about the safety of high-powered, untested x-ray machines.
But...but...
You can NOT go to Europe. I mean, hell, they're all ferriners anyway. But if you insist on going, you can take a boat...
So you volunteer for groping, irradiation, and nude photography on the mere basis of economics?
 
I think the opposition to the scans and pat downs is stupid.

Really, really stupid.

I have no problem with it. It's a cost vs benefit thing. Is the scan harmful? No. So no problem. Is the pat down harmful? No. So no problem.

Are we really so stupid as to make a huge issue out of this? If we are then maybe we don't deserve air travel in the first place. Remember we have no right to air travel. That's a luxury.

Is it a privacy violation? Yes of course it is.

4th Amendment said:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

A search, even if as a by-product, looks at my naked body then it violates my right to be secure in my person. If the government wants to strip-search me, it needs to get a god-damned warrant. No exceptions.
 
What, exactly, is the benefit?

I'm interested in this as well.

This is security theater. No proven benefit.

I have no problem with security theater so long as it is non-invasive. This security theater is invasive.

I'm traveling with my children in December over a distance that I couldn't drive reasonably. We bought our tickets some months ago, well before I was aware of the scan/grope procedure. So, now I can lose thousands of dollars and piss off my family by canceling the trip, or I can run the risk of my family being groped or photographed nude. I'm not happy.
 
Is it a privacy violation? Yes of course it is.



A search, even if as a by-product, looks at my naked body then it violates my right to be secure in my person. If the government wants to strip-search me, it needs to get a god-damned warrant. No exceptions.
Even if it's for your own good?[/Democratic party [/Politician/Bureaucrat mode]
'scuse me--I gotta go throw up after typing that...
 
I'm interested in this as well.

This is security theater. No proven benefit.

I have no problem with security theater so long as it is non-invasive. This security theater is invasive.

I'm traveling with my children in December over a distance that I couldn't drive reasonably. We bought our tickets some months ago, well before I was aware of the scan/grope procedure. So, now I can lose thousands of dollars and piss off my family by canceling the trip, or I can run the risk of my family being groped or photographed nude. I'm not happy.

That raises an interesting issue: are they taking nude photographs of kids?

It's not like the people we fantasize about boarding our planes aren't afraid to strap a bomb to a kid. Yet pictures of naked kids are obviously problematic.
 
What about the people that get killed by the airplane that explodes over their neighborhood?

As has been pointed out by others, there is nothing about these procedures that will prevent this.

What about people in another building that a plane flies into?

As has been pointed out previously in this thread, flight 93 proved that you can't hijack a plane anymore.

So, while we clearly disagree about the cost of these measures you have yet to bring any evidence about the benefit.

So, why are we being felt up again?
 
He was leaving the airport. Assuming he had no checked baggage, it's hard to see what further interest airport security had in him.
I think their interest is in making sure people don't do this.

If only a random selection of people are scanned / groped, then there's nothing to stop Terry the Terrorist from showing up at the airport fully loaded with whatever won't set off the metal detectors. If he's randomly selected, refuse scan, refuse grope, get a refund for the ticket, and come back to try another day. Repeat until successful.

This needs to happen more and more - and people who do not HAVE to fly need to stop doing so and tell the arlines why.
The airlines aren't responsible for the policy, and would no doubt prefer not to do it.

Shouldn't TSA compliance be the choice of the airlines, which after all are privately owned and not government entities?
I think this is what should happen. Have some planes for the nervous nellies who worry about terrorists, and others for those who choose to accept more risk for themselves and their children.

He brings up a good point in the video: Why is a potentially harmful x-ray or intrusive groping now a condition of travel?
It isn't. You are free to drive, take a bus, cruise ship, walk, swim, or charter a private plane without submitting to peek-a-boo scanners or pat downs.

I think the opposition to the scans and pat downs is stupid.

Really, really stupid.

I have no problem with it. It's a cost vs benefit thing. Is the scan harmful? No. So no problem. Is the pat down harmful? No. So no problem.

Are we really so stupid as to make a huge issue out of this? If we are then maybe we don't deserve air travel in the first place. Remember we have no right to air travel. That's a luxury.
I agree that it's stupid to make a big deal out of somebody getting a look at your butt crack or stroking your groin. For me, the harm is having to stand in line, to show up 2 hours early on a domestic flight instead of 5 minutes before they back away from the gate.

But I also think it's stupid to spend this much money and inconvenience the flying public to this extent for something that won't really make them any more secure. If someone's planning to put explosives on the plane, it's much more likely to be in the luggage than on a passenger, "shoe bomber" and "underwear bomber" notwithstanding.

I'd like to know what kind of security measures the TSA will take if terrorists start shooting planes out of the sky with surface-to-air missiles.

It doesn't really matter whether the procedures are harmful or not. The point is that people should have the right to choose whether or not they want this to be done.
I agree. I'd much rather jump on a plane like we did in the old days, than have all this mass cowering. Let each individual decide decide whether to fly "stroking or non-stroking".
 

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