10 story hole in WTC 7

[Christopher7]

This kind of kooky investigation.

Chris Sarns, AKA Christopher7:
​

"That JERK in the White house OFFed 3000 people."
"At 63 or any age I'm trying to save my country from the unspeakibly EVIL men who MURDERED 3000 Americans on 9-11."
"It's up to us in the US to blow this thing wide open.I won't settle for a bandaid,We need to do some serious whole world house cleaning."
"We don't need another investigation. A little common sense will do."
"We don't need a paper trail. There's enough video and documentry evidence to convict Cheney et al of high treason!"
"My evidence is the 4 min. video and common sense."
"Yes, the photographic evidence is enough for me, and any reasonible person." "This case will be tired in the court of public opinion and the positive social effect will be a major house cleaning in Washington. (God willing)"
The government will NEVER allow a meaningful investigation."
"Can you name one Senator or Rep. calling for an independent investigation or saying "911 was an inside job"."
"This issue will be decided right here on the web, the only place where the truth can be spread."
"Bush made this self incriminating statement twice. What more do you need to know ?" http://911blimp.com/aud_BushImplicatesBush.shtml
On David Ray Griffin's "9/11 Commission Report Omissions":
"It's a lot to read folks, but read it as if your freedom depended on it becaues it DOES!"
"Oh please, are a gluten for insipid pseudo-scientific gibberish?"
"Scholars for 9/11 Thuth have done RESEARCH and had that research verified by pier review [other Phd's].
There are more than 300 Phd's and experts with meny years of service in the military and government. Do you have any experience in government?"
"Wrong: An investigation ENDS with a hypothesis, NIST STARTED with one."
"You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.
And i don't need a engineer to tell me what i can see with my own eyes."
"I have been doing a lot of research on 911 and spreading the truth by giving copies of Loose Change and a 4 min. video on wtc7 to everyone I come in contact with."
Chris: "You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know a rocket when you see one and you don't have to be a demolitions expert to know a CD when you see one. CD are very distinctive, easy to recognise."
gumboot: "CD is distinct compared to what?"
Chris: "another CD."
gumboot: "???"
"In Shanksville a 575 hit filldirt at a 40 degree angle
A better comparison would be a tennis ball hitting an egg after bouncing off a brick wall."
"Fires in buildings don't burn hot enough to weaken steel I beams. Where you get this stuff, one of those debunking sites?"
"What doesn't make sence is putting fireproofing on steel box beams that are 2 ft. by 4 1/2 ft. and 4 in. thick. Why fireproof something that is fireproof ?"
"This is not rocket sience. Why do you continue to deny the obvious explanation in favor of the 'official' story that even the govt. admits is not likely. Just the fact that most Americans have still not seen this video speaks volumes. Look at this 4 min. video."
"Killtown: Excellent!
Anyone [not in deep denial] who takes the time to study your page,
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/11/faked-shanksville-crater-and-burnt.html
will agree that the Shanksville crash site is either probably or definately a fake."
"Can you possibly believe that a 757 completely burried itself, tail and all?
The coroner found NO body parts, NO blood."
"At some point you have to stop lying to yourself and accept the reality contained in those two photographs."
"There were NO FIRES anywhere in the building EXCEPT WHERE THE PLANES HIT."
"It took about 5 seconds for me to recognize that WTC7 was a controlled
demolition. It's a no brainer."
"The 5 sec. video of wtc7 falling straight down is the SMOKING GUN that woke me (and Prof. Jones) from our slumber."
"The MOLTEN METAL could have ONLY be caused by THERMATE."
"The fires were NOT near hot enough to melt steel.
Thermate is made to melt steel and is therefore a possibility.
There are NO other possibilities.
End of story!"
"Ever use a kerosene lamp? Kerosene DOES NOT EXPLODE! it burns."
"So, you cannot site another possible cause.
Thats because there is NO other possible cause."
"There simply is no other explanation."
"Weather or not you believe Jones, you won't be able to find a qualified person to say otherwise."
"I can better assess the damage, sitting here at my computer 5 years later, because i can see the other 2 [perhaps 3] sides of wtc 7 that the firefighter could not see."
"Denial will not protect you from reality."

Instead of reading the FEMA report to and discussing the data therein, you wasted a lot of time investigating me.

Do you ever debate the evidence and the data ?

When you can't deny the evidence and/or the data, you waste a lot of time and space trying to discredit the messenger.

NIST gave up the "gouged out" [in the statement on pg 18] in the 4-5-05 final report.

Now i have done some more research and discovered that the only location where a fuel fire could have occured near the initiating event, was in the north east corner of WTC 7 and as of around 3 p.m., it was not on fire.

These indisputable facts make it clear that fuel fed fires did NOT play a part in the initiating event.

Your response to facts you can't deal with, is to talk about something else.

Please take the time to double check the facts i have noted and see weather or not they are correct.

You will find that they are.

 

[Coritani]

No.
However [of course]

OT'ers should stop saying "no one heard an explosion"

Daryl heard a what sounded like a clap of thunder [sudden, very loud noise]

Craig said "i know an explosion when i hear it"

Neither is proof, but you can't say that nobody heard anything, that could have been a CD.

If these were Demolition Charges going off, how come the Demolition teams didn't hear them?

How do you know that these are explosions, rather than someone describing them as explosions?

Do you have any evidence that these 'explosions' are Demolition charges going off, and not anything else?

 

[jaydeehess]

Instead of reading the FEMA report to and discussing the data therein, you wasted a lot of time investigating me.

Do you ever debate the evidence and the data ?

When you can't deny the evidence and/or the data, you waste a lot of time and space trying to discredit the messenger.

NIST gave up the "gouged out" [in the statement on pg 18] in the 4-5-05 final report.

Now i have done some more research and discovered that the only location where a fuel fire could have occured near the initiating event, was in the north east corner of WTC 7 and as of around 3 p.m., it was not on fire.

These indisputable facts make it clear that fuel fed fires did NOT play a part in the initiating event.

Your response to facts you can't deal with, is to talk about something else.

Please take the time to double check the facts i have noted and see weather or not they are correct.

You will find that they are.

Please point to anyone stating that such a fuel fire would have been in the room containing the generators Chris!!

I have mentioned this several times and you ignore it. You accuse Gravy of talking about other things, a fashion of arguement that you are just as guilty of!

 

[twinstead]

Instead of reading the FEMA report to and discussing the data therein, you wasted a lot of time investigating me.

Do you ever debate the evidence and the data ?

LOL

You're kidding, right? What debate have YOU been reading? Have you read Gravy's papers? He has done PLENTY of investigation, and is quite capable of debating the evidence and data.

Unfortunately, you don't want to hear any evidence that contradicts your world view. When the only response he gets to rational, detailed discussion about ALL the evidence is fingers in the ears LA LA LA or some lame ideological diatribe, then all that is left is to then use your own words against you.

 

[Christopher7]

If these were Demolition Charges going off, how come the Demolition teams didn't hear them?

I don't know

How do you know that these are explosions, rather than someone describing them as explosions?

All we know for sure is, Daryl heard what sounded like a clap of thunder.

Do you have any evidence that these 'explosions' are Demolition charges going off, and not anything else?

asked and answered

 

[Coritani]

I don't know

I thought you'd say that. Perhaps because there were no demolition charges going off?

All we know for sure is, Daryl heard what sounded like a clap of thunder.

Okay. Did anyone else?

asked and answered

So that's a no then. No evidence. That's it.

Chris, aren't you seeing that using Daryl's testimony as evidence of a CD is dumb at best?

 

[Christopher7]

Please point to anyone stating that such a fuel fire would have been in the room containing the generators Chris!!

No one has stated where the fuel fed fires were exactly.
I'm just pointing out where they were not.

I have mentioned this several times and you ignore it. You accuse Gravy of talking about other things, a fashion of arguement that you are just as guilty of!

Wrong.

My posts [with references] are about the damage to WTC 7 based on the research i have done.

Gravy's posts ignore the subject at hand and are primarily of the 'attack and insult the messenger' variety.

Instead of researching the data that i used to support my statement, he researched me.

You are a serious, intelligent debater, Gravy is not.

 

[Christopher7]

I thought you'd say that. Perhaps because there were no demolition charges going off?

Okay. Did anyone else?

So that's a no then. No evidence. That's it.

Chris, aren't you seeing that using Daryl's testimony as evidence of a CD is dumb at best?

We disagree.

 

[Coritani]

We disagree.

You just admitted that you have no evidence. Yet you still disagree.

I am dumbfounded.

 

[jaydeehess]

No one has stated where the fuel fed fires were exactly.
I'm just pointing out where they were not.

Why point out that the fires were not in the generator room?
I, for one, am quite aware that the generators were along the walls not in the core section of the building.
You already know the location of the tanks and supply lines. Fires along the supply lines would not neccessarily create smoke out the louvers. There are locations along the supply lines that come close to the area of collapse initiation where smoke would not, of neccessity, exit via perimeter openings on the floor where the fire is.

No one has even stated that fuel fires were present. This is just one possibility that was noticed by one group looking into WTC 7.

Had there been any real evidence that planted explosives were used they would have examined that idea as well.
If there were any evidence that a massive space based beam weapon was employed they would have looked into that as well.(I believe that you don't subscribe to the beam conjecture. Your evidence of explosives is about as strong as beam weapons in space IMHO)

 

[jaydeehess]

Concerning laymen's opinions on how things work.

Self and bookcase units that one can buy at Home Depot are inexpensive, look pretty good and relatively easy to assemble.

Why are they not as good as ones made by a cabinet maker using plywood or seasoned, dimensional, solid lumber?

Obviously, to you or I, the Home Depot ones are made of particle board with a thin veneer of real wood(if you're lucky, otherwise its a plastic veneer) and under load this will slowly sag. If it gets damp it will quickly swell and buckle. Plywood and solid wood will resist such swelling and support a load much better and longer.
This is analogous to laypersons coming to conclusions about fire damage in steel structures. "My steel wood burning stove survives high heat, surely a large building made of steel should do better".

 

[Christopher7]

Why point out that the fires were not in the generator room?

That is the only place where there could be a fuel fed fire near the initiating event that led to the collapse of WTC 7.

I, for one, am quite aware that the generators were along the walls not in the core section of the building.

Most people are not aware that the only generator room on the east side of WTC 7 was in the north east corner of floor 5.

You already know the location of the tanks and supply lines. Fires along the supply lines would not neccessarily create smoke out the louvers. There are locations along the supply lines that come close to the area of collapse initiation where smoke would not, of neccessity, exit via perimeter openings on the floor where the fire is.

One would have to assume that there was NO ventilation in the middle northern section.

No one has even stated that fuel fires were present. This is just one possibility that was noticed by one group looking into WTC 7.

True

Had there been any real evidence that planted explosives were used they would have examined that idea as well.

The physical evidence was removed and destroyed before it could be analyzed.
Some volunteers from the Structural Engineers Association of NY salvaged a few pieces of WTC 7 steel for FEMA [the govt. wasn't interested]
They were not analyzed or mentioned in either the FEMA or the NIST report [that i know of]

 

[Gravy]

These indisputable facts make it clear that fuel fed fires did NOT play a part in the initiating event.

I never claimed they did, you certifiable kook.

"We don't need a paper trail. There's enough video and documentry evidence to convict Cheney et al of high treason!"

"My evidence is the 4 min. video and common sense."

So when are you going to present this evidence to a prosecutor, Chris?

Why are you here whining about fuel lines?

 

[Christopher7]

I never claimed they did,

Thank you.

Now that we have eliminated fuel fed fires in the initial event area,

[debris hole around floor 14 was just west of center, fuel pipe 90' from front of WTC 7]

let's look at the only fire in the initial event area.

From 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.
Looking from the SE corner at the south face:

Fire on floor 14 [revised to floor 12 in NIST Final 4-5-05]*

Fire on floor 12* moved toward the east face.

2:00 to 2:30 p.m.

Fire on east face floors 11 and 12 at SE corner, progressing north.

Around 3:00 p.m., fires on floors 7 and 12 along the north face.

Around 4:45....floor 12 was burned out by this time.

 

[Arus808]

what happened on the north face (the side that wasn't affected by the collapse of tower 1 or the debris that fell from tower 1) doesn't matter all that much. Since the damage was REPORTED ON THE SOUTH SIDE.

 

[Christopher7]

Sometime after 3:00 pm

Fire on floors 8 and 13 [north wall]

Fire on floor 8 progresses to east corner and moved to east face.

 

[Gravy]

Second time:

You say you have all the evidence you need.

So when are you going to present this evidence to a prosecutor, Chris?

 

[Christopher7]

Second time:

You say you have all the evidence you need.

Really?

When did i say that?

So when are you going to present this evidence to a prosecutor, Chris?

I'm still workin on it

Here's what i have so far:

There was heavy debris damage to the SW corner
A large hole around the 14th floor just west of center
South face damage, middle 1/4 - 1/3 width south face, floor 10 to ground
Upper floors and roof damage, just west of center
Only damage to south wall on 9th floor at SW corner
Part of south wall gone on floor 8
2 elevator cars in hallway north of elevator shaft on floor 8
Explosion heard on floor 8

***

No debris damage to east 1/3 of south face was reported

There was no fuel fed fire in the east part of WTC 7 where the initial event, that led to the collapse, occured.

***

There was a fire on the 12th floor

Form 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. it burned west to east across the south side
From 2:00 to 3:00 p.m., the fire progresses north along east side
About 3:00 p.m., it reached the north side, east of center, and spread in both directions
A little later there was a fire later fire on floor 8, spreading to east corner and moving to east side
By 4:45 the fire on floor 12 had burned out


The reports of fire to the east part of WTC 7 are not going to change in the final report.
The reports given are clear, the times are accurate enough to track the progression of the fires.

 

[Gravy]

Second time:

You say you have all the evidence you need.

Really?

When did i say that?

CHRIS: ARE YOU MENTALLY ILL? I POSTED YOUR QUOTES JUST A FEW POSTS AGO.


Chris Sarns:

"We don't need another investigation. A little common sense will do."

"We don't need a paper trail. There's enough video and documentry evidence to convict Cheney et al of high treason!"

"My evidence is the 4 min. video and common sense."

"Yes, the photographic evidence is enough for me, and any reasonible person."


Third time, Chris Sarns: you say you have all the evidence you need. When will you be presenting it to a prosecutor?

 

[Christopher7]

CHRIS: ARE YOU MENTALLY ILL? I POSTED YOUR QUOTES JUST A FEW POSTS AGO.


Chris Sarns:

"We don't need another investigation. A little common sense will do."

"We don't need a paper trail. There's enough video and documentry evidence to convict Cheney et al of high treason!"

"My evidence is the 4 min. video and common sense."

"Yes, the photographic evidence is enough for me, and any reasonible person."


Third time, Chris Sarns: you say you have all the evidence you need. When will you be presenting it to a prosecutor?

The photographic evidence is enough for me but not for a prosecutor.

This is why i have been reviewing the data contained in the FEMA and NIST Apx. L reports.

The data on where the tanks pipes and generators were will not change in the final report on WTC 7.

The data on where the fires were, and the timeline of the progression of those fires, will not change in the final report.

**************

NIST has revised it's assessment of the damage to the south face from:

"middle 1/4 to 1/3 width of the south face was gouged out from floor 10 to the ground" [NIST Axp. L pg 18]

to:

"South face damage -
middle 1/4 to 1/3 width of south face, 10th floor to ground" [NIST final 4-5-05]

Based on new photographs, they have assessed the damage to the south face again, and will publish their findings in the final report.

It is unlikely that they found evidence of major damage to the east 1/3 of WTC 7, that had gone unnoticed by Chief Fellini, who was in charge of operations at West and Vesey.

Note: 11:30 a.m.- 2:30 p.m.
Looking from SE corner at the south face:
Fire on floor 12

Inherent in this statement is: No fires below floor 12 on the eastern part of WTC 7

**************

I listed these facts in post #938

No one should take my word for it. This is far too important.

I will post my summary again, with references, so that you can verify every statement for yourself.

I encourage everyone to take the time to review and verify these statements.