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Why is snus less socially acceptable than smoking?

Humes fork

Banned
Humes fork
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
3,358
NOTE: I don't use any tobacco products, so I'm not speaking in my own interest.

Snus is illegal by EU law. Sweden recieved an exception, I think because its use is so widespread here.

Why is snus less socially acceptable than smoking (at least outside Sweden, though its popularity is growing in the US)? I think for society as well as for the individuals, snus is better than smoking, because there is no equivalent to passive smoking, and snus doesn't affect the lungs. It seems very strange to me that the EU is subsidizing tobacco farmers, yet prohibits the least dangerous product of it (it is however not a healthy product and it is addictive). Granted, expecting coherent EU policies is probably to expect too much.
 
Snus causes cancers in the mouth, experts = doctors are against it, and its small popularity allows politicians to ban it, so be it.
 
JJM 777 said:
Snus causes cancers in the mouth
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Got any peer reviewed studies to back that up?

Snus has gained a lot of popularity in Norway since the government introduced stricter laws on smoking and increased taxes on smokes.

The reason really is simple. Unlike smokes, you can use snus anywhere. And it doesn't have the immediate bad effect on your health and your lungs like smoke do. Even if you live an active life, even as an athlete, you don't compromise it by using snus. There have been varied reports on the ill effects of using snus, but either way one thing is certain: It's not as bad for you as inhaling smoke all day.

When I was a teenager, snus was mostly only used by people living in rural areas and the Norwegian version of rednecks. That's not true anymore. Snus users can now be found in every demographic, and it has become especially popular with younger people of both genders.

So in Norway, at least, snus has become more socially accepted than smoking. Snus is 'in' and trendy, while smoking is done by wheezing older people.
 
Ryokan said:
Got any peer reviewed studies to back that up?

Snus has gained a lot of popularity in Norway since the government introduced stricter laws on smoking and increased taxes on smokes.

The reason really is simple. Unlike smokes, you can use snus anywhere. And it doesn't have the immediate bad effect on your health and your lungs like smoke do. .
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Smoking and other tobacco use are linked to most cases of oral cancer
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002030/

The studies, (like most such studies) suggest a link, they usually don't flatly state 'snuff causes cancer'.



What is your point? That dipping can never cause cancer, or that snus is somehow safer because of its manufacturing process?
 
crimresearch said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002030/

The studies, (like most such studies) suggest a link, they usually don't flatly state 'snuff causes cancer'.

What is your point? That dipping can never cause cancer, or that snus is somehow safer because of its manufacturing process?
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My point is that there is no clear evidence of it being a greater cause of oral cancer than, say, drinking wine.

A recent evaluation by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has confirmed that smokeless tobacco is also carcinogenic. Risk varies according to the composition of smokeless tobacco used in different countries. A recent meta-analysis showed a more than doubling in risk of oral cancer with use of smokeless tobacco in the United States and Canada, a five-fold risk increase for India and other Asian countries and a seven-fold risk increase in Sudan. No risk increase for oral cancer was shown with smokeless tobacco use in the Nordic countries.
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Alcohol is a major risk factor for oral cancer and a study published in December 2011 estimated that, in 2010, around 37% of oral and pharyngeal cancers in men and 17% in women in the UK were linked to alcohol. A meta-analysis reported risk ratios for alcohol intake of 25 grams/day, 50 grams/day and 100 grams/day after adjustment for smoking of 1.8, 2.9 and 6.1, respectively. One study showed a doubling in risk for people drinking 14 grams of alcohol/day.
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Source: Cancer Research UK.

The main carcinogen in smoking is in the tobacco smoke.
 
Ryokan said:
My point is that there is no clear evidence of it being a greater cause of oral cancer than, say, drinking wine.





Source: Cancer Research UK.

The main carcinogen in smoking is in the tobacco smoke.
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Ahh, thanks.

Yes, I'm not surprised that versions like snus show no such effect... fermentation in the process seems to be part of the problem.
 
Never heard of snus. How is it different from dip used by rednecks in the US?
 
Tony said:
Never heard of snus. How is it different from dip used by rednecks in the US?
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Humes fork provided a Wikipedia link in the OP.

Snus is a form of snuff that is used in a manner similar to American dipping tobacco, but typically does not result in the need for spitting. Snus is also unique in that it is steam-pasteurized rather than fire-cured, is not fermented and contains no added sugar.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus
 
I am pretty sure they're very similar. Certainly it's better than smoking for non-tobacco users since it eliminates the smoke. Even if there is zero health impact from second hand smoke most non-smokers hate the stench of smoke which permeates everything. Neither seem attractive to me but whatever floats your boat.

Also...you don't spit with snus? Every time I have seen someone using it they have a bottle or can that they're furiously spitting into.
 
Humes fork said:
No, except of course when you are finished with it.
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I don't spit it out, I just take it out and put it in the trash.. :)

Most snus boxes these days also have a small chamber to discard used snus in.
 
My store, (in the USA,) carries snus, but it has not caught on with very many people. Maybe because I live in the south, and chewing tobacco is much more a part of the culture. I did used to carry actual dry snuff, for snorting, that two very elderly customers requested, but they died, and with them the demand for snuff in the Gainesville market.
 
autumn1971 said:
My store, (in the USA,) carries snus, but it has not caught on with very many people. Maybe because I live in the south, and chewing tobacco is much more a part of the culture. I did used to carry actual dry snuff, for snorting, that two very elderly customers requested, but they died, and with them the demand for snuff in the Gainesville market.
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Looking at the boxes, I'd bet they are going after the shishah market... Which in America, is college kids.
 
JJM 777 said:
Snus causes cancers in the mouth, experts = doctors are against it, and its small popularity allows politicians to ban it, so be it.
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What a ridiculous argument. If we allowed politicians to ban anything for which there was "small popularity" there would be no unbanned substances left in the world.

Sheesh.
 
Ryokan said:
Got any peer reviewed studies to back that up?

Snus has gained a lot of popularity in Norway since the government introduced stricter laws on smoking and increased taxes on smokes.

The reason really is simple. Unlike smokes, you can use snus anywhere. And it doesn't have the immediate bad effect on your health and your lungs like smoke do. Even if you live an active life, even as an athlete, you don't compromise it by using snus. There have been varied reports on the ill effects of using snus, but either way one thing is certain: It's not as bad for you as inhaling smoke all day.

When I was a teenager, snus was mostly only used by people living in rural areas and the Norwegian version of rednecks. That's not true anymore. Snus users can now be found in every demographic, and it has become especially popular with younger people of both genders.

So in Norway, at least, snus has become more socially accepted than smoking. Snus is 'in' and trendy, while smoking is done by wheezing older people.
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Here in the US, if you're talking about chewing tobacco, in the 80s and 90s were were shown pictures of people constantly with gaping holes for mouths, often with specific hollows in the area where they regularly kept their tobacco along the gum or lip. I still shudder to recall it all. A campaign of terror! People with their entire jaws removed due to cancer caused by chewing tobacco. I've never really thought about it since then, so I offer no challenge on it's safety or danger.

I take it this wasn't an issue there then.
 
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Complexity said:
'snus' simply looks wrong to me.
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Pronounce it to rhyme with 'juice' and you've got it. :)

And on the OP, which has yet to be answered: why is snus illegal in the EU? Quite simply because if bureaucrats and politicians can ban something that they think will win them brownie points, whether with public health officials or the electorate, then they will, irrespective of the scientific evidence vouching for the substance's safety.
 
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23_Tauri said:
If we allowed politicians to ban anything for which there was "small popularity" there would be no unbanned substances left in the world.
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That's the holy grail of government - total control over everybody.

Even if it is not the intention to criminalize snus users, the threat of criminal charges is a useful way to silence critics.
 
As long as it doesn't involve spitting in to a tin can like my brother-in-law, myeh, do whatever you want.

Once they unequivocally told the world that smoking causes cancer that was the end of my concern over personal use. If you know it's terrible for you and do it anyway, well it's not my concern.

Sadly cigarettes also stink, and give other people health problems, so they need to go. I'm not breathing your filth.

You can mainline nicotine if you want though, as far as I'm concerned it's your body.
 
Tony said:
Never heard of snus. How is it different from dip used by rednecks in the US?
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Excuse me, I indulge in tobacco from time to time, and I don't consider myself a "redneck". (Though I don't understand how that has become a derogatory term- it refers to people having red necks because they work in the sun all day. My grandfather had a literal red neck. Not something to sneer at, in my opinion.)

eta: I apologize for this last remark. I realize that I had a knee jerk response. Sorry, Tony.
 
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Cainkane1 said:
If snus is the same thing as snuff it may be illegal because it causes oral cancer and is disgusting to watch someone spitit out in public.
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Snus has a completely different chemical profile to powdered, dry snuff. The way snus is consumed is also totally different. Dry snuff, unlike snus, has a high level of nitrosamines and it is these that resulted in evidence for an association between dry snuff and oral cancers. This is in contrast to snus, as no evidence has ever been found of an increase in oral cancers from snus use.

Unfortunately, policy maker lumped all smokeless tobacco together one product, and relied on a study of female American dry snuff users for their 'evidence', hence the situation we have now where snus is banned in the EU.

Stupids. :mad:
 
All this hot air, but nobody questions the "right" of unrestricted democracy and politicians to lead people on rage crusades to beat up small groups.
 
I do 'snus', I have been using it for about twelve years now. Naturally, due to the nicotine mostly, it's not a health-perk. Snus is also a swedish innovation. It's not chewing tobacco snuff thingies. The only thing incommon with the latter is that it is a tobacco product and you put it in your mouth. Snus is fermented/pasteurised et al, so it doesn't have the bacterial floura of american snuff n chew stuff.

As a curiosa, you'll never find me visiting Island.
 
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23_Tauri said:
If we allowed politicians to ban anything for which there was "small popularity"
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Not sure how you believe that democracy works. Small popularity means that the supporters are few, and therefore have no political power in the decision. That is why heroin, LSD and marijuana are banned, they are not popular enough to sway the political decision-making process.
 
JJM 777 said:
Not sure how you believe that democracy works. Small popularity means that the supporters are few, and therefore have no political power in the decision. That is why heroin, LSD and marijuana are banned, they are not popular enough to sway the political decision-making process.
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More sillyness.

Democracy is a system that should be used to make the decisions that are perhaps overcomplicated for everyone to decide on an individual basis.

What we put in our bodies, is our own business and the fact that some people think it's OK for a few interfering politicians to make that decision on our behalf shows that they don't actually understand what democracy was invented for.

The banning of snus has nothing to do with health (public or private) and everything to do with the continued demonisation of tobacco by the anti-smoking lobby, who can't be seen to favour one method of delivery above another one. Of course those same anti-smokers fully agree with NRT products (except electric cigarettes because they look too much like real smoking).
 
Living in hawaii, I can really feel the pain of the Obama anti-harm reduction statutes. A monopoly is given to UPS putting snus almost as expensive as tooth destroying nicotene lozenges. I'll still buy them. Hopefully the politics gets back out of the way before we all go broke or chose lung cancer instead.
 
Cainkane1 said:
If snus is the same thing as snuff it may be illegal because it causes oral cancer and is disgusting to watch someone spitit out in public.
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Again, it isn't, it doesn't and you don't. Don't people read threads anymore? It's not like this is a long one...
 
Jono said:
I do 'snus', I have been using it for about twelve years now. Naturally, due to the nicotine mostly, it's not a health-perk. Snus is also a swedish innovation. It's not chewing tobacco snuff thingies. The only thing incommon with the latter is that it is a tobacco product and you put it in your mouth. Snus is fermented/pasteurised et al, so it doesn't have the bacterial floura of american snuff n chew stuff.

As a curiosa, you'll never find me visiting Island.
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I think you may have the fermented bit backwards.
 
JJM 777 said:
Not sure how you believe that democracy works. Small popularity means that the supporters are few, and therefore have no political power in the decision. That is why heroin, LSD and marijuana are banned, they are not popular enough to sway the political decision-making process.
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:confused:

What's it got to do with politics in the first place? Whether some Nordic peoples, or anyone else for that matter, want to suck on some harmless moist Nicotiana tabacum leaves has nothing whatsoever to do with some meddling politicians and their nannying side-kicks in Brussels, Stockholm or Oslo.

They need to butt out!
 
Stray Cat said:
they don't actually understand what democracy was invented for.
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What was it invented for? As a meaningless smoke veil that hides from the public the fact that they still are governed by small privileged inner circle elites as always before?
 
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