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What's the harm in magical thinking?

arthwollipot

Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
arthwollipot
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
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Ngunnawal Country
Bangladesh rumours of human sacrifice to build bridge lead to murder of eight people

Eight people have been killed in vigilante lynchings in Bangladesh sparked by rumours on social media of children being kidnapped and sacrificed as offerings for the construction of a bridge, police have confirmed.

The victims, which include two women, were targeted by angry mobs over the rumours, spread mostly on Facebook, that said human heads were required for the massive $3 billion project ($4.3 billion), police chief Javed Patwary said.

"We have analysed every single case of these eight killings," Mr Patwary told reporters in Dhaka.

"Those who were killed by lynching mobs, no-one was a child kidnapper."

More than 30 other people have been attacked in connection with the rumours.
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social media is some scary **** in these parts of the world. Similar rumors were spread in Mexico and India through WhatsApp and led to mob lynchings.
 
There was a news article a couple of months ago where two Maori lads were killed because they were thought to be practicing witchcraft.
Apparently, a friend of theirs had died unexpectedly.
 
There's no magical thinking in this story. There's rumors of magical thinking, and a lynch mob committing murders based on the rumors.

According to the story, there's no indication that the rumors of magical thinking are true.

So it seems like the story has nothing to do with the thread title.
 
theprestige said:
There's no magical thinking in this story. There's rumors of magical thinking, and a lynch mob committing murders based on the rumors.

According to the story, there's no indication that the rumors of magical thinking are true.

So it seems like the story has nothing to do with the thread title.
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I was thinking something similar.

However I can see some connection: it's only in the context of magical thinking that people will tend to attribute that type of thought process to others. Ie. It's because they think human sacrifice works that they actually fell for the false rumours of other people engaging in human sacrifice.

Of course, a counter example to this is myself. I certainly don't think human sacrifice works, but I know that it is a practice that people have engaged in throughout history. Still, I do think that people more easily attribute to others thought processes like the ones that they commonly engage in.
 
Roboramma said:
I was thinking something similar.

However I can see some connection: it's only in the context of magical thinking that people will tend to attribute that type of thought process to others. Ie. It's because they think human sacrifice works that they actually fell for the false rumours of other people engaging in human sacrifice.

Of course, a counter example to this is myself. I certainly don't think human sacrifice works, but I know that it is a practice that people have engaged in throughout history. Still, I do think that people more easily attribute to others thought processes like the ones that they commonly engage in.
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That's way too much of a stretch for me to be comfortable making. I won't get into the reasons here.

What this seems like to me is good old fashioned bigotry, incited to violence by the rumor mill.

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I wouldn't mind a discussion about the harm of magical thinking, though.

On the one hand, there's stuff like having a lucky rabbit's foot in your pocket. Totally harmless (except for the rabbit, of course).

On the other hand, there's stuff like thinking human sacrifice will make your bridge stronger. Aside from the obvious harm to the human sacrifice, there's also the risk that you're substituting your "magic" for the real engineering due diligence that's actually required. Even if the sacrificial subject is willing to die for the greater good, all of the people killed in the bridge's collapse due to inadequate engineering are not willing to die. Certainly not for the greater harm. So there's some issues with magical thinking in that case.

It's similar to conspiracy theorism. There's not much harm in alleging a conspiracy to conceal the flat Earth. Even if you believe it's true, your daily life isn't going to be much harmed by that belief. If for no other reason than you're likely to ignore the discrepancies wherever reality makes your life easier than the belief would.

On the other hand, alleging a conspiracy to conceal autism as a side effect of vaccines, and living according to that belief, can potentially cause a *lot* of harm.

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So. What's the harm in magical thinking? It depends on the magic, and on the thinking, and on what you do with those two things together.

Bringing it back around to the OP, I suppose one could argue that the harm of thinking that human sacrifice improves engineering projects is that at some point in the future, after this belief has fallen out of favor, but the community is full of angry mobs looking for an excuse to lynch people, rumors of this thinking will get innocent people killed.

But I'm not sure how you'd put that to a tribal shaman.

"I know you believe this stuff, but in the future people won't."

"Gods forbid! Literally! I will sacrifice *extra*, entreating the gods to forbid any such future!"

"No, I mean, people won't believe it, but they'll get murdered by other people who will think they *do* believe it."

"This future sounds as stupid as it does senseless. I doubt the gods will ever permit these things to come to pass, but if they do, I pray I don't live to see it."

"Keep using that bridge and your prayers may yet be answered."
 
Roboramma said:
However I can see some connection: it's only in the context of magical thinking that people will tend to attribute that type of thought process to others. Ie. It's because they think human sacrifice works that they actually fell for the false rumours of other people engaging in human sacrifice.
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That is indeed the sense in which I titled the thread. I apologise if it was unclear.
 
theprestige said:
That's way too much of a stretch for me to be comfortable making. I won't get into the reasons here.

What this seems like to me is good old fashioned bigotry, incited to violence by the rumor mill.
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I agree that it's not obviously the case and one could probably present a good argument that it is, as you say, too much of a stretch. I also agree that it's probably not worth getting in to.

Regarding the rest of your post, I think you make some good points. There is a question as to whether harmless magical thinking can tend to lead to treating that type of worldview as more viable, encouraging particular habits of thought, that make all sorts of magical thinking, including the harmful sort, more easily accepted.

That seems like a psychological research project, though, and one who's conclusions I don't think I could guess at. I am interested in the discussion, though.
 
Roboramma said:
Ie. It's because they think human sacrifice works that they actually fell for the false rumours of other people engaging in human sacrifice.
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I don't think they need to think that human sacrifice works; they might just think that the other guys think that human sacrifices work.

It is all possible in a world where it is known that magical thinking is prevalent. In my country, Denmark, it is highly unlikely that anybody would come up with this idea, even though there are plenty of idiots around who might actually do it, but in Bangladesh, people know that there is a lot of such thinking, so the concept gets credence much faster.
 
steenkh said:
I don't think they need to think that human sacrifice works; they might just think that the other guys think that human sacrifices work.

It is all possible in a world where it is known that magical thinking is prevalent. In my country, Denmark, it is highly unlikely that anybody would come up with this idea, even though there are plenty of idiots around who might actually do it, but in Bangladesh, people know that there is a lot of such thinking, so the concept gets credence much faster.
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Magical thinking by proxy!
 
And albinos getting murdered because of various folk beliefs that their bodies can be used for magic.
 
arthwollipot said:
That is indeed the sense in which I titled the thread. I apologise if it was unclear.
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That doesn't make any sense at all. They wanted to stop the human sacrifices because they believe human sacrifices work? Not only is that painfully counter-intuitive, it doesn't seem to be supported by anything in the article you cited.

I think the far, far more parsimonious explanation is that they wanted to stop the human sacrifices because they do not believe in them.

I think the more parsimonious explanation even than that is that they were already in a lynching mood for other reasons, and latched onto this internet rumor as an excuse to go out and beat up on the Other.
 
The myth, apparently central to the religion of my housecat, that it's necessary to trip me/get kicked/get stepped on, in order to get fed.

She hears the can opening. She knows it's coming. There's no reason for her to stay underfoot while I move her food bowl from the counter to the floor.

But somehow she's convinced that getting kicked is a necessary part of the process. The bowl won't magically float down off the countertop unless all the steps of the ritual are properly performed.

And I'm not sure I can blame her. After all, from her perspective it works every time. Very consistent ritual. Getting kicked is a small sacrifice to make, to ensure the favor of the gods.
 
TragicMonkey said:
And albinos getting murdered because of various folk beliefs that their bodies can be used for magic.
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What's interesting about examples like this is that the harm is obvious to an outsider. We know the magic isn't real. We know the albino is just another human being, equal in rights to anyone else, and entitled to live a life free of "magical" obligations.

But this isn't really a harm you can argue to a believer. It's not a harm you could argue to a community that believes, and has a strong value of collective benefit.

If you believe that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one), and you believe that the albino's magic will meet some need of the many, then the greater harm is not taking appropriate action. Withholding the magic the community needs may itself be the harm.

I don't really know how to square that circle. But I do know that telling unbelievers that human sacrifice is harmful (to the victim) is preaching to the choir.

Arguing the harm of magical thinking to believers necessarily has to be on a different basis.

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When I think of magical thinking, I think mostly of correlating a coincidental outcome to a ritualistic behavior.

I think that probably the harm of magical thinking is that it obscures rational exploration of cause-and-effect in the world around us. It's risky to be the heretic who says, "maybe human sacrifice doesn't always work; maybe we should investigate and experiment with other methods of building a sturdy bridge".

Especially if your experiment is a failure, and your community decides the problem is best solved by sacrificing *you*.
 
theprestige said:
I don't really know how to square that circle. But I do know that telling unbelievers that human sacrifice is harmful (to the victim) is preaching to the choir.
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When I read this part of your post I had a suggestion on how to square that circle, but then I read the rest of your post, in which you wrote:


I think that probably the harm of magical thinking is that it obscures rational exploration of cause-and-effect in the world around us. It's risky to be the heretic who says, "maybe human sacrifice doesn't always work; maybe we should investigate and experiment with other methods of building a sturdy bridge".
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I think the discussion regarding magical thinking should focus on whether or not the magic actually works, and ways of finding out. I agree that it's necessary to consider the picture from the perspective of the magical thinking: if the magic actually worked, they might be entirely rational. Condemning them for the harm of the magic without addressing the issue of the benefit that they see accruing from it is, as you say, a losing game.

But actually testing the idea is at least a potential solution. The issue then is testing it in a way that the magical thinker considers trustworthy. We might think that the magic has already been demonstrated to be false. But if they distrust the prior tests, coming up with a mutually agreed on test might be a useful way forward.

Especially if your experiment is a failure, and your community decides the problem is best solved by sacrificing *you*.
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That's certainly a risk.
 
Per the OP:

The victims, which include two women, were targeted by angry mobs over the rumours, spread mostly on Facebook, that said human heads were required for the massive $3 billion project ($4.3 billion), police chief Javed Patwary said.
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This strikes me as odd: The idea that the children were offered up as sacrifices doesn't, to me, quite seem to mesh with the belief that human heads were required to build the bridge. The heads have to come from somewhere, and decapitation is inevitably lethal, so obviously someone has to die. I'm trying to picture what part of the structure needed human heads. Someone was supposedly seen carrying a head around, so the heads were themselves being pressed into service. Normally wouldn't you just kill something in a ritual way to satisfy the human sacrifice component? What was supposed to happen to the heads?

The murderers apparently believed that others believed that human heads were necessary in bridge-building. They killers themselves wouldn't have to be thinking magically, but it does show that they live in a society where people routinely believe things like this.
 
Writing that post out made me realize something: Trolls need to know what triggers their audience. The fact that Russians know the West well enough to exploit our divisions is kind of unsettling. Would people in the U.S. know how to manipulate Russians to exploit divisions in that country? Maybe this is all standard psych ops, and any operative can learn this technique.

I dislike manipulative people because I'm so bad at it myself.
 
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Minoosh said:
Writing that post out made me realize something: Trolls need to know what triggers their audience. The fact that Russians know the West well enough to exploit our divisions is kind of unsettling. Would people in the U.S. know how to manipulate Russians to exploit divisions in that country? Maybe this is all standard psych ops, and any operative can learn this technique.

I dislike manipulative people because I'm so bad at it myself.
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All of them? Probably not. Some randomly chosen of them? Maybe not.

Somehow I suspect that the Russians chosen to manipulate our social media were not chosen randomly.

Could we find Americans capable of manipulating Russians in the same fashion.

Yes, I expect we could. In fact, I expect we have.
 
Minoosh said:
Per the OP:



This strikes me as odd: The idea that the children were offered up as sacrifices doesn't, to me, quite seem to mesh with the belief that human heads were required to build the bridge. The heads have to come from somewhere, and decapitation is inevitably lethal, so obviously someone has to die. I'm trying to picture what part of the structure needed human heads. Someone was supposedly seen carrying a head around, so the heads were themselves being pressed into service. Normally wouldn't you just kill something in a ritual way to satisfy the human sacrifice component? What was supposed to happen to the heads?
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You've never heard of placing a ritual object as a magic talisman on something? Or even separate from something, but linked to it magically?

You're way overthinking this.

The murderers apparently believed that others believed that human heads were necessary in bridge-building. They killers themselves wouldn't have to be thinking magically, but it does show that they live in a society where people routinely believe things like this.
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I wholeheartedly disagree with this conclusion.

At most, it shows that they live in a society where people routinely believe that other people routinely believe these things.

Nothing in the story suggests that this lynch mob could be excused by any actual practice of sacrifice in their community. Nor even that such beliefs are routinely held by anyone in India these days.

My suspicion is that in this case it's possibly not even a matter of believing other people believe in human sacrifice. I think in this case, it's possibly just a matter of simple bigotry, and people making up bigoted excuses to go out and beat up on the Other.
 
theprestige said:
You've never heard of placing a ritual object as a magic talisman on something?
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What would they put the heads on?

theprestige said:
Or even separate from something, but linked to it magically?
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I'm kind of literal this way. If something ceremonial was being done with the heads ... OK I guess. But lopping off a head and toting it around indicates to me that the heads played some part in the actual bridge-building.

theprestige said:
Nor even that such beliefs are routinely held by anyone in India these days.
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Perhaps. The story is from Bangladesh.

And I bet there people in India as well who believe all kinds of things; I've heard it's a very diverse place.
 
theprestige said:
That doesn't make any sense at all. They wanted to stop the human sacrifices because they believe human sacrifices work? Not only is that painfully counter-intuitive, it doesn't seem to be supported by anything in the article you cited.
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It is not counter-intuitive in the least. Believe that magic works is not the same as belief that magic is right, or morally permissible. Take for instance fundamentalist Christians' both believing "psychic powers" are real, AND believing that they're bad because they come from the Devil. For that matter, take those same fundamentalist Christians applying the exact same line of reasoning to street and stage magicians, whom they genuinely believe to be using demonic powers to make things actually, physically disappear and so forth.

The Bangledeshi murderers might well believe BOTH that child sacrifice rituals are effective, AND that they nevertheless must be suppressed and their practitioners purged because it is an evil practice.
 
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arthwollipot said:
It wasn't on social media, it was on a major news site.
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He's talking about people believing the rumours of child kidnappings and human sacrifice that were being spread on social media. If people didn't believe those rumours, they wouldn't have been incited to mob violence.

Unless there was something else going on and the rumours were just an excuse for violence that those people were already wanting to engage in.
 
Checkmite said:
It is not counter-intuitive in the least. Believe that magic works is not the same as belief that magic is right, or morally permissible. Take for instance fundamentalist Christians' both believing "psychic powers" are real, AND believing that they're bad because they come from the Devil. For that matter, take those same fundamentalist Christians applying the exact same line of reasoning to street and stage magicians, whom they genuinely believe to be using demonic powers to make things actually, physically disappear and so forth.

The Bangledeshi murderers might well believe BOTH that child sacrifice rituals are effective, AND that they nevertheless must be suppressed and their practitioners purged because it is an evil practice.
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It's a possibility, but not a necessary conclusion.

And while there are exceptions (the Christian one is attested from my own upbringing), I still think it's a pretty counter-intuitive conclusion to leap to.
 
p0lka said:
Yeah, what Roboramma said.

Social media has a tendency to act like a magnifying glass, there's a lot of good but it also magnifies *****, then bad stuff can happen. Wish people had a BS filter.
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Social media is still a pretty new thing. I think that humanity in general will get better at it as time goes on. There are children being raised today in the social media environment who will understand and use social media in ways that we oldies can't imagine today.
 
theprestige said:
It's a possibility, but not a necessary conclusion.

And while there are exceptions (the Christian one is attested from my own upbringing), I still think it's a pretty counter-intuitive conclusion to leap to.
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You may say so, but it is hardly unprecedented. The Salem Witch Trials most infamously involved the killing of individuals suspected of (successfully) casting spells and using magic; a direct analogy to the situation in question.
 
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