We don't need no education

[Nessie]

Lots of kids have failed to return to school after the pandemic.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/03/why-...-to-school-19406159/?ico=top-stories_home_top

"Since the coronavirus lockdowns, persistent absenteeism is up 117%, equating to nearly a quarter of of all pupils in primary, secondary and special state schools – or 1,615,772 pupils."

Frankly, I don't blame them. School is hell for many kids and after they got to stay away during the pandemic, making their lives better, it is no surprise many have refused to go back.

Furthermore, many see their parents getting the option not to go back to work and keep on working from home. They saw how remote learning works. So, why force them back?

Why not have blended schooling, like blended working? As classes A and B setting down with a teacher in a classroom, class C are logging on with their teacher, from home. Maybe the pupils from class C go into school one morning a week. Maybe other pupils from classes A and B join class C, if there is a reason they are not going to school that day.

My child was at college, having left school early because he hated it so much. He found college easier, but still a challenge. The pandemic sent him home and he is now doing a remote degree through the Open University, happily studying and enjoying life at home. He has friends with jobs who work from home, at least some of the time.

Why force kids into school? Why not embrace home learning and make it part of schooling?

 

[Samson]

I think times they are a changin'.
I think schools were good for mating behaviour, and computers deter this.
Consider how other species continue with mating behaviour unabated by screen time.

 

[lionking]

Lots of kids have failed to return to school after the pandemic.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/03/why-...-to-school-19406159/?ico=top-stories_home_top

"Since the coronavirus lockdowns, persistent absenteeism is up 117%, equating to nearly a quarter of of all pupils in primary, secondary and special state schools – or 1,615,772 pupils."

Frankly, I don't blame them. School is hell for many kids and after they got to stay away during the pandemic, making their lives better, it is no surprise many have refused to go back.

Furthermore, many see their parents getting the option not to go back to work and keep on working from home. They saw how remote learning works. So, why force them back?

Why not have blended schooling, like blended working? As classes A and B setting down with a teacher in a classroom, class C are logging on with their teacher, from home. Maybe the pupils from class C go into school one morning a week. Maybe other pupils from classes A and B join class C, if there is a reason they are not going to school that day.

My child was at college, having left school early because he hated it so much. He found college easier, but still a challenge. The pandemic sent him home and he is now doing a remote degree through the Open University, happily studying and enjoying life at home. He has friends with jobs who work from home, at least some of the time.

Why force kids into school? Why not embrace home learning and make it part of schooling?

What utter nonsense. As is the rest of this post to be honest.

 

[Nessie]

A kid who wants to learn, but is bullied, or has certain special needs, or certain phobias, is better educated remotely.

My son's education thrived by the switch away from formal to remote learning.

 

[Samson]

What utter nonsense. As is the rest of this post to be honest.

Not nonsense at all. A clear description of an alternative to traditional schooling.
However, I have devised a curriculum that starts with the big bang and the progressive assembly of the periodic table, math to physic to chemistry to biology to language.

 

[lionking]

A kid who wants to learn, but is bullied, or has certain special needs, or certain phobias, is better educated remotely.

My son's education thrived by the switch away from formal to remote learning.

Yes some children need alternatives to school, no question. But you didn’t say that. You said “many”. Prove it. Show your work.

And using the trite song title from an ordinary album to make your point? Come off it.

 

[lionking]

Not nonsense at all. A clear description of an alternative to traditional schooling.
However, I have devised a curriculum that starts with the big bang and the progressive assembly of the periodic table, math to physic to chemistry to biology to language.

Rubbish. Show your work as well. Schools have been effective in developing the most educated generation ever and have put children on the pathway to professions and trades we all need.

Are schools for everyone? Almost, but not all. Is home schooling a better alternative. Of course not. That is just a hippie dream.

 

[Samson]

Rubbish. Show your work as well. Schools have been effective in developing the most educated generation ever and have put children on the pathway to professions and trades we all need.

Are schools for everyone? Almost, but not all. Is home schooling a better alternative. Of course not. That is just a hippie dream.

Wrong in New Zealand. Standards collapsing.

 

[Nessie]

Yes some children need alternatives to school, no question. But you didn’t say that. You said “many”. Prove it. Show your work.

And using the trite song title from an ordinary album to make your point? Come off it.

I used the term many because of this, which I quoted in the OP

"Since the coronavirus lockdowns, persistent absenteeism is up 117%, equating to nearly a quarter of of all pupils in primary, secondary and special state schools – or 1,615,772 pupils."

That is a lot. It deserves to be called many. Offering a form of blended learning, that has learning from home, rather than school, is the best option to get them back into education, which is different from getting them back into school.

That blended learning might be entirely home based, or it has half days, or just one morning coming into school.

It is not home schooling, the hippy dream, which is parents doing the education. It is kids logging on and speaking to their teacher and doing their lessons from home, in the same way many did during the pandemic, and places like very remote Australia have been doing for years. Furthermore, it could be rigging classrooms with cameras and the teacher sees 20 pupils at their desks and another 10 on a TV screen. The parent's job is to get the child to school, whether that is taking them there, or logging them on.

The pandemic exacerbated a problem, but it also provided the solution.

 

[lionking]

I used the term many because of this, which I quoted in the OP

"Since the coronavirus lockdowns, persistent absenteeism is up 117%, equating to nearly a quarter of of all pupils in primary, secondary and special state schools – or 1,615,772 pupils."

That is a lot. It deserves to be called many. Offering a form of blended learning, that has learning from home, rather than school, is the best option to get them back into education, which is different from getting them back into school.

That blended learning might be entirely home based, or it has half days, or just one morning coming into school.

It is not home schooling, the hippy dream, which is parents doing the education. It is kids logging on and speaking to their teacher and doing their lessons from home, in the same way many did during the pandemic, and places like very remote Australia have been doing for years. Furthermore, it could be rigging classrooms with cameras and the teacher sees 20 pupils at their desks and another 10 on a TV screen. The parent's job is to get the child to school, whether that is taking them there, or logging them on.

The pandemic exacerbated a problem, but it also provided the solution.

I’m sorry to say, this illustrates your ignorance. Vanishingly few people live in remote Australia without access to school. Despite the country’s size, Australia is one of the highest urbanisation of all nations. And first rate, accessible schools.

You are also, like so many, underestimating the importance of face to face engagement. It is very well known that moving from face to face to remote communication degrades the quality of such communication. Psychology 101.

 

[Nessie]

I’m sorry to say, this illustrates your ignorance. Vanishingly few people live in remote Australia without access to school. Despite the country’s size, Australia is one of the highest urbanisation of all nations. And first rate, accessible schools.

I used that as an example of remote learning, which is different to home learning. During the pandemic, there was a mix of remote and home learning. Some educational establishments and courses suited and switched quickly to remote learning. My son's course was an example of that. A teacher friend who is a primary school teacher in Germany is another. But it is a wealthy private school, with parents who worked with the school.

Others were not so successful and many kids were left behind, failed by the school and their parents. They are the ones who need help to get remote learning working.

You are also, like so many, underestimating the importance of face to face engagement. It is very well known that moving from face to face to remote communication degrades the quality of such communication. Psychology 101.

I have not said it is unimportant. I have suggested a way to engage kids in education, that is better than having over a million drop out of schooling. Remote learning, is better than no learning.

 

[lionking]

I have not said it is unimportant. I have suggested a way to engage kids in education, that is better than having over a million drop out of schooling. Remote learning, is better than no learning.

Schooling is enforced in Australia, with penalties for parents without exemptions (very few have exemptions). I haven’t seen the fabric of society tearing apart.

For the record I worked at a senior level in my state’s education department for many years in a time of great change to school curriculum, staffing and technology. Without blowing my trumpet too hard, I played a key role in integrating disabled children into mainstream schools.

Two of my daughters are teachers, one primary and one secondary, so I have a very good grasp of modern schooling.

Taking children out of face to face teaching in schools will be a major mistake and a failure of government.

 

[Dude111]

Lots of kids have failed to return to school after the pandemic.

 
Yes and its amazing no one is saying a thing about it....

 

[catsmate]

Schools are a strange and rather silly idea. Attempting to teach pre-adults to behave like adults by cramming them together.
Weird.

 

[lionking]

So you never went to school? This explains a thing or two.....

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

As a teacher I can explain my subject of specialization (in my case Chemistry) in many different ways, knowing all the ins and outs and pitfalls that the subject has for high-school students ages 12-18. Building up this knowledge took me about 5 years, the tools to explain to students I'm still refining after 13 years of teaching and every year students surprise me with new ways of looking at things.

A homeschooling parent would need to build this up for every subject available. There is no realistic way this can happen, so homeschooling will always be less effective in general.
Books can only get you so far, as a book cannot look at the answers of a student and explain the same materiel in a different way.
As a example, some students only understand reaction equations if I use visual examples like lego or drawings of various shapes rearranging, whereas other student only under stand the same subject matter if I stay fully mathematical and abstract. By now I know how to recognizes who needs what approach, but that required many students over many years, experience which a parent simply does not have.

If students lie to me about having done their homework, paying attention, etc I am the one they have the conflict with, not their parents who in theory should be the safe space where they can vent about me and my fellow teachers.
Homeschooling imo unhealthily mixes these two roles.

And, for me most importantly, in a school you will be exposed to many different people, viewpoints and ideas. Many of which you might disagree with, or hate, or love. But it teaches you how to deal with this, rather than the closed loop homeschooling, where your parents totally control any information you come into contact with, thus never giving a soon to be adult the tools how to handle disagreement, which imo is far more likely to lead to an unhealthy way of dealing with different people than someone who learned that their way is not the only way in high school.

I understand that there are some exceptions where maybe a homeschooling setup for a limited time might be the best option, but imo it should stay something exceptional, not common.

 

[lionking]

Thank you. Well said

 

[dann]

As a teacher ...

As another teacher, English and German, high school, in Denmark that's 16-19-year-olds.

When I was a student, I was bored out of my skull in school, I hated homework and got away with doing almost nothing. I only managed to get to university (and to pass my exams there as well) by being good at studying for for exams.
For instance:
Three years of Latin where I learned nothing. It took me a week to learn enough on my own to pass.
Four years of French. Three days of study, aided by Linguaphone was enough for me to pass.
Seven years of German. Same thing.
Eight years of English. I had started reading books in English on my own, so I didn't have to study much for the English exam.
With the other stuff like history, geography, biology, physics, I usually got by because I would read about it on my own whenever something caught my interest. Unfortunately, it did not always coincide with the curriculum, but it was usually close enough.

I got through university much the same way: Exams provided a deadline, so one week of study for grammar, a couple of days for phonetics, etc. Literature was a little more tricky (an awful lot of pages!), but I managed by reading a lot of extra-curricular literature on my own.

Being a language teacher, I have often been asked by people interested in learning a language about the best way to do so. My answer has always been: Anything other than taking classes! (I have always told my students the same thing whenever they came up with excuses about having had bad teachers before high school: 'No teachers are so bad that they can prevent you from learning whatever it is they're supposed to teach you.')

The worst thing about learning languages in school is that it takes too bloody long, and you can't feel that you are making any progress from week to week, month to month. You can if you are teaching yourself. I also discovered that I was able to find something interesting for about a week if I really had to, even something as boring as Latin! But for three years?! No way!

To avoid this problem for students, I proposed teaching languages as intensive classes, i.e. one year's curriculum in a couple of weeks, but it couldn't be done within the system.
However, a couple of times I had the opportunity to do something similar: One year of (English) classes taught in three months for people who needed just the high-school diploma in English. It was extremely gratifying for the students to be able to see the progress they made from week to week. For me, too! (It also helped that they usually had a specific purpose they needed the diploma for. )

The downside to studying on your own: If you need some external force to discipline you to do it, you are probably not made for it. So classes it is.

The upside of classes (at the university): When you are more or less self-taught, there may be stuff that you think you know but don't really. Feedback on papers, in particular translations, helped weed out mistakes that I didn't know I made.

In school, kindergarten to high school, the social aspect is probably important. I can't imagine it's mentally healthy for children to be isolated from people their own age. (On the other hand, nowadays they will not get infected with SARS-CoV-2 again and again, but I think #DavosStandard would be a better solution to that problem than home-schooling.)

However, I think school should be very different from what it is today. It should help children and YA to learn stuff they're interested in when they are interested in it instead of trying to force them to learn things that have to be forced (and force themselves) to pretend to find interesting.

For teachers, there is only one thing worse than students who aren't interested in what you are trying to teach them: students who feign an interest they don't have in order to get good grades.
Or maybe that's just me.

 

[Chanakya]

Lots of kids have failed to return to school after the pandemic.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/03/why-...-to-school-19406159/?ico=top-stories_home_top

"Since the coronavirus lockdowns, persistent absenteeism is up 117%, equating to nearly a quarter of of all pupils in primary, secondary and special state schools – or 1,615,772 pupils."

Frankly, I don't blame them. School is hell for many kids and after they got to stay away during the pandemic, making their lives better, it is no surprise many have refused to go back.

Furthermore, many see their parents getting the option not to go back to work and keep on working from home. They saw how remote learning works. So, why force them back?

Why not have blended schooling, like blended working? As classes A and B setting down with a teacher in a classroom, class C are logging on with their teacher, from home. Maybe the pupils from class C go into school one morning a week. Maybe other pupils from classes A and B join class C, if there is a reason they are not going to school that day.

My child was at college, having left school early because he hated it so much. He found college easier, but still a challenge. The pandemic sent him home and he is now doing a remote degree through the Open University, happily studying and enjoying life at home. He has friends with jobs who work from home, at least some of the time.

Why force kids into school? Why not embrace home learning and make it part of schooling?

Agreed, home schooling should be seen as a more mainstream option, for such parents as are able to provide that attention. A large-scale (and mainstreamed) assist program for parents to enable (mainstreamed) homeschooling would be a win-win for all parties concerned --- the state, the parents, and the kids themselves.

Also agreed, many schools --- not all, obviously, but some/many --- are actual hell. No child should be subjected to that kind of nonsense. (But of course, that's an argument for improving how those schools are run, and not necessarily for home schooling.)

 

[Nessie]

....
Taking children out of face to face teaching in schools will be a major mistake and a failure of government.

I am not arguing that remote teaching replaces face to face. I am arguing remote teaching should be an option for those who refuse to go to school for face to face teaching.

Remote teaching is surely better than no teaching.

 

[Nessie]

...

I understand that there are some exceptions where maybe a homeschooling setup for a limited time might be the best option, but imo it should stay something exceptional, not common.

Agreed, where, by homeschooling, I mean remote teaching by a teacher, not the parents teaching their kids. The problem is;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66701748

"More than one in five children in England are frequently missing school...Over the last academic year, Department for Education (DfE) figures show 22.3% of pupils in England were persistently absent."

That is a lot of kids who schools need to re-engage with, so remote teaching may need to be more common than we would prefer.

 

[dann]

That is just a hippie dream.

No, not really.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, not really.

From the link:

How the Christian Home-Schooling Lobby Feeds on Fear of Public Schools

This is my stereotype of homeschooling, parents who don't like their religious beliefs challenged in public schools. It especially took off with the Evangelical fanaticism.

Anti-vaxxers, with a lot of overlap were the other parents who fled public schools.

After the pandemic closed a lot of schools for 2 years I imagine that caused an upheaval in the whole system. I'm not sure what will be the result when the dust settles.

I think kids benefit from the socialization that occurs at school. It includes bullying to some degree as kids need to learn how to deal with such situations. That can backfire of course when the adults don't monitor the situation.

As for the education, that varies considerably by teacher and school. I don't think there is a one size fits all. I only had a couple teachers who understood the importance of teaching critical thinking skills. This is a good time to consider restructuring public education. Unfortunately for the US the current political situation is dominating public discourse so I don't anticipate attention being paid to the transition back to school for kids.

First day of school is Tues for most public schools in this country. I believe most schools here opened last year.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Agreed, where, by homeschooling, I mean remote teaching by a teacher, not the parents teaching their kids. The problem is;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66701748

"More than one in five children in England are frequently missing school...Over the last academic year, Department for Education (DfE) figures show 22.3% of pupils in England were persistently absent."

That is a lot of kids who schools need to re-engage with, so remote teaching may need to be more common than we would prefer.

Remote teaching was hell.

Sure, if you can schedule the time to talk to each student individually, but even then, it was a pale imitation of actually being able to walk past students and see what they were doing.
To make it work you'd need classes of 10 or less per teacher, and given the shortage of teachers, that's not going to happen.

Again, if it's limited to special cases this is not a bad idea.

 

[bigred]

I’m sorry to say, this illustrates your ignorance. Vanishingly few people live in remote Australia without access to school. Despite the country’s size, Australia is one of the highest urbanisation of all nations. And first rate, accessible schools.

You are also, like so many, underestimating the importance of face to face engagement. It is very well known that moving from face to face to remote communication degrades the quality of such communication. Psychology 101.

Exactly. One of the most important parts of going to school as a kid is learning social skills. Comparing this to adults working from home is an invalid comparison to put it kindly.

The logic here seems to be "kids went to school remotely and they loved it so why force them back?" Yes, God forbid kids not get what they want. We wouldn't want to teach them that's how life is or anything. Coddle and spoil, that's how to do it

(Side note: I always found the PF song title funny, given the glaring lack of education it shows)

 

[angrysoba]

Yes some children need alternatives to school, no question. But you didn’t say that. You said “many”. Prove it. Show your work.

And using the trite song title from an ordinary album to make your point? Come off it.

It’s not a title of a song. The song title is Another Brick in the Wall, and the thread title is merely a line from the song. Do they not teach anything in your schools?

I think times they are a changin'.
I think schools were good for mating behaviour, and computers deter this.
Consider how other species continue with mating behaviour unabated by screen time.

Samson! Do other species learn mating behaviour in schools? No!? Then your argument is very silly!

 

[arthwollipot]

It’s not a title of a song. The song title is Another Brick in the Wall, and the thread title is merely a line from the song. Do they not teach anything in your schools?

And for the record, The Wall is an absolute classic!

 

[Brainster]

Given that the average test scores for kids declined sharply during the school closures due to Covid, it seems unlikely that remote learning works for most kids; it probably would for some. Schools also function as babysitters for a lot of working couples.

BTW, the song title is Another Brick in the Wall Part II.

 

[Thermal]

Thirding giving props to the iconic The Wall

 

[8enotto]

My wife is a teacher. She was very frustrated with remote classrooms via computer because the4 was no way to maintain any "classroom" control.
Add in no student could be failed no matter how little they participated.
Net results, a lot of kids got pushed through two years of school without any real gains.
Now the kids are back in the classroom in person and some are way off the level they could be at.

It will take a while to get the system back up to where it was, as relatively defective as it was before the disruption.

Most parents aren't remotely prepared to home school. I certainly am not. My math skills are nowhere near adequate for the material they are learning.

 

[Nessie]

Remote learning will not work for all kids, but out of the 1.6 million kids in the UK now regularly missing school, there will be some for whom it is a godsend and the best way to re-engage them with education.

My son would have dropped out, but for the switch to remote learning.

 

[lionking]

Remote learning will not work for all kids, but out of the 1.6 million kids in the UK now regularly missing school, there will be some for whom it is a godsend and the best way to re-engage them with education.

My son would have dropped out, but for the switch to remote learning.

What the UK needs to do is require children to attend except for the most serious and provable reasons.

Australia had a problem with idiot parents not getting their children vaccinated for measles. The government stopped welfare payments to families which did that. The problem went away.

 

[Nessie]

What the UK needs to do is require children to attend except for the most serious and provable reasons.

Australia had a problem with idiot parents not getting their children vaccinated for measles. The government stopped welfare payments to families which did that. The problem went away.

The reasons why children do not go to school are many and varied. There are now so many children not going, that alternatives should be offered.

Removing benefits from feckless parents with kids who cannot be bothered with school is one way to get some back.

Offering remote learning opportunities is another, especially for kids who have been bullied, have phobias or are on the autistic spectrum, and who want to learn, have caring, capable parents, but struggle with the school environment.

The pandemic revealed there are a lot more kids in the latter group than I think anyone fully realised.

 

[lionking]

The reasons why children do not go to school are many and varied. There are now so many children not going, that alternatives should be offered.

Removing benefits from feckless parents with kids who cannot be bothered with school is one way to get some back.

Offering remote learning opportunities is another, especially for kids who have been bullied, have phobias or are on the autistic spectrum, and who want to learn, have caring, capable parents, but struggle with the school environment.
The pandemic revealed there are a lot more kids in the latter group than I think anyone fully realised.

Are you saying the UK education system does not offer support for children bullied, with phobias, autistic and so on? Firstly, I do not believe this is true, but if it is, this is the problem to be addressed. The solution is absolutely not to keep children away from schools.

 

[Nessie]

Are you saying the UK education system does not offer support for children bullied, with phobias, autistic and so on? Firstly, I do not believe this is true, but if it is, this is the problem to be addressed. The solution is absolutely not to keep children away from schools.

The UK does offer support, in school. That is part of the problem, the support is at the school and the child has to come to school to get it. That support should start at home, with the aim of re-engaging the child and it should include the option of remote teaching.

 

[lionking]

No. Get the children to schools for professionals to deal with their issues.

That is good parenting in my view.

 

[Nessie]

No. Get the children to schools for professionals to deal with their issues.

That is good parenting in my view.

We forced our son to school and college, which he hated, then when everything went to remote learning, he thrived.

According to you are we good or bad parents?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Got to say I'm in agreement with LK here. Remote learning was a great thing during the pandemic. Absolutely the best solution to the problem at the time. Outside of that? Sure there might be a few kids who would do better, but school really is the best option for all involved.

I'm not saying schools are perfect. I was bullied regularly when I was at school and I hated it, and I doubt the situation has improved by a whole lot but that's an issue with the way schools deal with the problem and the solution is to fix that not abandon schools.

 

[Thermal]

We forced our son to school and college, which he hated, then when everything went to remote learning, he thrived.

According to you are we good or bad parents?

Serious questions, no snark: were the schools particularly abusive for any reason? Were other students generally able to succeed? Did the child study team evaluate your child to see if there were other remedies that could have had the student thrive in a conventional environment?

 

[Nessie]

Serious questions, no snark: were the schools particularly abusive for any reason? Were other students generally able to succeed? Did the child study team evaluate your child to see if there were other remedies that could have had the student thrive in a conventional environment?

The school did not a not bad job with support, but he still left early. He found college more relaxed (the UK allows students of school age to also study at college), but still struggled. The switch to remote learning was the making of him and he is now doing a degree, which would have never happened without remote learning.

That is why I think so many are staying away, because many do not have that remote option they coped with and liked, during the pandemic.