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We don't need no education

The phonics vs 'whole word' debate turned up on the TV news last night.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-10/literacy-teaching-revolution-underway/102834334

States (including mine) that have switched back to teaching students how to decode words via phonics are no longer receiving bad results in reading assessments on the national assessment program (NAP) https://www.nap.edu.au/naplan.

On the radio news this morning, the national broadcaster referred to recent research that shows that 50% of Tasmanians have insufficient literacy to manage normal day to day activities.

It's hard to imagine how many lives have been ruined by a stupid education fad.

Wasn’t whole language education based on a couple of misunderstandings of Chomskyan linguistics?

The first being that written language is analogous to spoken language (which is what Chomsky was talking about) in terms of how children pick it up.

The second problem is the belief that Chomskyan linguistics is correct. :p
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_the_Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_Empire

After a diligent inquiry, I can discern four principal causes of the ruin of Rome, which continued to operate in a period of more than a thousand years. I. The injuries of time and nature. II. The hostile attacks of the Barbarians and Christians. III. The use and abuse of the materials. And, IV. The domestic quarrels of the Romans.

— Edward Gibbon. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Chapter 71 "Four Causes of Decay and Destruction."

I've never read it, so I can't comment on its accuracy.
 
Gibbon did, after all, write the book on the subject. :D

Fall of the Western Roman Empire
Modern historiography diverges from Gibbon...

A synthesis by Harper (2017) gave four decisive turns of events in the transformation from the height of the empire to the early Middle Ages:

- The Antonine Plague that ended a long period of demographic and economic expansion, weakening but not toppling the empire.

- The Crisis of the Third Century, in which climatic change, renewed pandemic disease, and internal and external political instability led to the near-collapse of the imperial system. Its reconstitution included a new basis for the currency, an expanded professional government apparatus, emperors further distanced from their people, and, shortly, the rise of Christianity, a proselytizing, exclusive religion that anticipated the imminent end of the world.

- The military and political failure of the West, in which mass migration from the Eurasian steppe overcame and dismembered the western part of an internally-weakened empire. The eastern empire rebuilt itself again and began the reconquest of the West.

- In the lands around the Mediterranean the Late Antique Little Ice Age and the Plague of Justinian created one of the worst environmental cataclysms in recorded history. The imperial system crumbled in the next couple of generations and then lost vast territories to the armies of Islam, a new proselytizing, exclusive religion that also looked forward to an imminent end time. The diminished and impoverished Byzantine rump state survived amid perpetual strife between and among the followers of Christianity and Islam.

Gibbon blamed the decline of the Roman Empire on moral decay, when it was actually mainly caused by disease and climate change. Thousands of years after our own civilization has been destroyed by the same forces, historians will probably once again seize on diatribes about the 'decline of the youths morality' rather than face up to the real causes - and history will repeat itself again.
 
We have two children on full scholarships to college. Both will have started in what would have been their 7th grade year.

The first is in his second semester in engineering, earning straight A's. Age 13.

The second starts in January, he will still be 12.

Homeschooled. We followed no curricula. We thought they were mostly stupid. Dumbed down with what they think are child level concepts. Ours were just reading books and papers. We found school textbooks to be especially horrible, disjointed garbage. For example, reading Darwin's Origin of Species book kept them riveted cover to cover. The real stuff is always better.

We're not hippies. We studied peer review science literature and put what we learned to use, beginning with singing the ABC song through my wife's womb. Because we learned brain development begins in the womb. Early walking turns out to be especially important to the Dawn of Active Thought so we had ours doing walking practice at 2 months like the papers we read.

By Kindergarten age they both were testing 5th grade and the school system was adamant that your age determines what grade you are in. We didn't really have any option but to continue homeschooling.

It strikes me that the kids were 5 academic years ahead at kindergarten and six years ahead currently. Back at kindergarten age our motto was "widen the gap". It did, but only by a little.

You seem awfully certain this is the result of your homeschooling program rather than factors outside of your control. Have you considered that perhaps you're just lucky to have children that are fast and easy learners?

I'm not sure what broader lessons are supposed to be derived from the experience of prodigy students enrolling in college at very young ages. Public schools have the challenge of trying to educate all students, from the most exceptional (on both extremes) to the average.
 
You seem awfully certain this is the result of your homeschooling program rather than factors outside of your control. Have you considered that perhaps you're just lucky to have children that are fast and easy learners?

I'm not sure what broader lessons are supposed to be derived from the experience of prodigy students enrolling in college at very young ages. Public schools have the challenge of trying to educate all students, from the most exceptional (on both extremes) to the average.
Also, the existence of one set of parents with sufficient pedagogical understanding to effectively educate their children does not suggest that all parents are able to do so. Some parents are particularly awful homeschoolers, and should not be allowed to be the sole educators of their children.
 
Also, the existence of one set of parents with sufficient pedagogical understanding to effectively educate their children does not suggest that all parents are able to do so. Some parents are particularly awful homeschoolers, and should not be allowed to be the sole educators of their children.

Exactly. While I might have the ability to grasp curriculum, I’m certain I would not be a good teacher.
 
You seem awfully certain this is the result of your homeschooling program rather than factors outside of your control. Have you considered that perhaps you're just lucky to have children that are fast and easy learners?


Have you considered that perhaps most children would benefit from another kind of education than the trivial **** they are taught in school - in particular in the early classes? Have you considered that it slows everybody down?

I'm not sure what broader lessons are supposed to be derived from the experience of prodigy students enrolling in college at very young ages. Public schools have the challenge of trying to educate all students, from the most exceptional (on both extremes) to the average.


Have you considered that "trying to educate all students, from the most exceptional (on both extremes) to the average," may be one of the most idiotic ways of teaching kids anything?

The kids who (for whatever reason) already grasped what is being taught are bored out of their skulls by having to listen to the same stuff being taught over and over. And the ones who haven't yet grasped it (for whatever reason) learn top pretend that they did and accept that the class moves on to a new theme even though they still haven't grasped the old one which they needed to understand in order to grasp the new stuff. They are stuck, but since "schools have the challenge of trying to educate all students, from the most exceptional (on both extremes) to the average," the class has to move on.

A real-life anecdote: An ex-girlfriend of mine, a German, made a living teaching students who suffered from so-called dyscalculia (Wikipedia). Some people consider it to be a parallel to dyslexia, and Wiki's article describes it as if it were a brain disorder. I don't know if it is in some cases, but the institute that my ex worked for used analytical tests to find out where the students got stuck. Something like this: Dyskalkulie: Qualitative Diagnostik (Wikipedia)

I don't know how well it translates into English using Wikipedia, but the point is that students often find their ways to do calculations or math that may work to some extent with small numbers, and then they get stuck using their own method and are lost when the class moves on. And teachers often aren't aware of what happens, and the children are then hopelessly lost.

The analytical tests point out at which stage the students were lost, so their mistake can be corrected by means of Integrative Lerntherapie Wikipedia).
Schools aren't usually equipped to do that, and the children are then lost - sometimes forever. But that's how the school system works. The obvious problem that some students already understand everything and others understand nothing is handled by means of grades and and selection: The students who understand everything are rewarded with good grades, receive more education and end up in college. The students who understand nothing because the bloody school system failed them get bad grades, are excluded from further education and since they not only don't understand the curriculum but also don't understand what went wrong, they usually blame themselves and their lacking 'knack'. IQ theory delivers the coup de grâce: They were born stupid, their g just wasn't good enough:
IQ: The democratically purified racism (SkepticReport)
How intelligent is the average IQ test designer? (SkepticReport)

I think that this is the first time I've agreed, to some extent, with anything AlaskaBushPilot has said, but I also agree with arthwollipot that not "all parents are able to do so. Some parents are particularly awful homeschoolers, and should not be allowed to be the sole educators of their children." And schools make students stupid, so it's kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

As I've mentioned before, I'd never recommend taking classes as a way to learn languages.
 
We (my family) are not competing against the dunces at our local school. We are competing with Shanghai, China and Singapore, etc.
(...)
The world is competitive and if you don't act like it then on college admissions, with jobs, and in the marriage market, etc. you are going to be the loser instead of the winner.


Because that's what learning is all about, right?! :(
I can imagine what became the point of Darwin's Origin of Species in this particular version of homeschooling!
 
Just to point out, I have never advocated homeschooling as a solution for kids who have failed to return to school after the pandemic. I am advocated remote learning, organised by the school.
 
Just to point out, I have never advocated homeschooling as a solution for kids who have failed to return to school after the pandemic. I am advocated remote learning, organised by the school.

Based on what I've seen in the last 3 years, I think homeschooling is probably the better option. Remote schooling doesn't seem to work at all, homeschooling, works sometimes.
 
And for the record, The Wall is an absolute classic!

I went to the school that was used as a film set in Three Men and a Little Lady as a typically spartan British boarding school!

While there, after lights out, I recorded on cassette, Roger Waters discussing the new album The Wall with the late Tommy Vance on his Friday Night Rock Show.

Hurrah! Memories of being about 15 years old.

PS Forgotten how to use commas properly. (I blame the bloke who married Greg Rusedski!)
 
Have you considered that perhaps most children would benefit from another kind of education than the trivial **** they are taught in school - in particular in the early classes? Have you considered that it slows everybody down?


I'm humbly suggesting that having a homeschool student enrolled at college at like 12 or 13 is probably an unusual result, regardless of how high quality the education they receive is. Perhaps we should be hesitant to draw broader conclusions based on the outcomes of students who seem quite obviously atypical.
 
I'm humbly suggesting that having a homeschool student enrolled at college at like 12 or 13 is probably an unusual result, regardless of how high quality the education they receive is. Perhaps we should be hesitant to draw broader conclusions based on the outcomes of students who seem quite obviously atypical.


I also wrote:
... but I also agree with arthwollipot that not "all parents are able to do so. Some parents are particularly awful homeschoolers, and should not be allowed to be the sole educators of their children." And schools make students stupid, so it's kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
 
Last edited:
I also wrote:

That is not my point, though it's also a good one.

I'm saying that not all students are prodigies, and you shouldn't assume that this kind of outcome even if all students were getting excellent one on one homeschooling.
 
Fear of school shootings, bullying and indoctrination helped fuel a pandemic-era boom in home schooling, according to an exclusive Washington Post-Schar School survey
(...)
Rather than religion, home-schoolers today are likely to be motivated by fear of school shootings, anxiety over bullying and anger with the perceived encroachment of politics into public schools, the poll finds. Yet even among those who voice such concerns, many do not share the deep-seated opposition to public education that defined home-schoolers of past decades, and the new crop is more likely to mix and match home schooling with public school, depending on their children’s needs.
Home schooling today is less religious and more diverse, poll finds (WashingtonPost, Sep 26, 2023)


Reasons for home schooling
1 Concern about school environment 74%
2 To provide moral instruction 68%
3 Dissatisfaction with academic instruction at schools 64%
4 Concern about school shootings 62%
5 Concern about bullying 58%
6 Local public schools too influenced by liberal viewpoints 46%
7 Concern about child being discriminated against 41%
8 To provide religious instruction 34%
9 Child has special needs school can't/won't meet 32%
10 Covid policies too strict at local public schools 31%
11 Child has psychological/behavioral issues made worse at school 28%
12 Covid policies not strict enough at local public schools 27%
13 Local public schools too influenced by conservative viewpoints 26%

I imagine there's considerable overlap of 6 and 10 and of 12 and 13.

Religious instruction has dropped sharply as a reason for home schooling, from almost 2/3 to 34%.
Those who home-schooled before the pandemic are twice as likely to name providing religious instruction as those who began after.
(...)
Nearly 6 in 10 said their kids would take live online classes, and about 1 in 5 plan to participate in a home-school co-op.
(...)
many were intrigued by home schooling before the pandemic but wouldn’t have tried it absent the abrupt school closures in March 2020. ... “Everything was up in the air,” she said. “We were like, let’s just try to home-school, and we’ve been doing it ever since.”

So to many parents, learning from home during the pandemic has been an inspiration - much like for the people who started WFH and want to continue doing so.

One home-schooling parent would like to see more government regulation of home schooling:
“I’ve seen some friends who basically just don’t do any curriculum and say, ‘Well, they’ll learn stuff from watching online.’ And you have 12-year-olds who can’t read,” Hotard said.
 
John Oliver discusses homeschooling, its surprising lack of regulation in many states, and, crucially, Darth Vader’s parenting skills.
Homeschooling: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) (Last Week Tonight with John Olive on YouTube, Oct 9, 2023 - 24:23)

As almost always, an excellent show!

Some of the things it mentions:
The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) (Wikipedia). Sounds good in principle, but HOLY CRAP!!! :jaw-dropp
An Ohio couple used homeschooling to spread Nazi ideology (MSNBC, Feb 3, 2023)
Inside The Online Community Where Home-Schoolers Learn How To Turn Their Kids Into ‘Wonderful Nazis’ (Huff-Post, Jan 29, 2023)

Apparently, many abusive parents use homeschooling as a way to avoid being visited by Child Protective Services, and this makes it possible for them to continue the abuse and neglect without outside interference.

Many more examples of homeschooling are mentioned in the comments to the YouTube video - both good and bad, but mostly bad.
 
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