The Saddam Trial

[zenith-nadir]

The Saddam trial is underway and there is no Saddam trial thread. So please feel free to use this as the official Saddam Trial thread.

Today:

Mon Dec 5, 5:13 AM ET

Judge Amin: "We do not have enough time because the witness has arrived, (Clark) can tell us through a written letter through you (al-Dulaimi) and we will reply to it."

Ramsey: "I need only two minutes to submit and we will leave the courtroom if you do not accept it."

Judge Amin: "Mr. Khalil, if you are going to leave the room, it will harm your client. The court will be obliged to appoint lawyers from the defense bureau."

Saddam: "The court is allowing the witness to speak, but it does not allow the defense lawyers to defend. Is this the justice?"

Judge Amin: "You will be heard."

Al-Dulaimi: "We will not stop until we receive the full answer to the question we are concerned with."

Judge Amin: "We will give you enough time, regarding the refutation of the legitimacy of this court. This court is legitimate, legal and formed according to a law issued by the National Assembly."

Saddam: "Under the American occupation!"

Judge Amin: "No, and you are not allowed to speak."

Saddam: "How is it legitimate while it is the Americans who formed it?"

Al-Dulaimi: "We will make presentations to you and refute the legitimacy of this court — that was based on the unjust U.S. aggression — verbally and then in writing."

The defense go for the obvious first move, reject the legitimacy of the court.

 

[The Don]

I believe their second tack should be to claim that a fair trial is impossible on the grounds that there isn't a single person in Iraq who is truly neutral w.r.t. Saddam Hussein.

 

[jay gw]

Saddam Hussein's defense team walked out of court today after a heated exchange over the legitimacy of the tribunal. At one point Hussein stood up, shook his fist and shouted, "Long live Iraq." The court later allowed former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark and another defense lawyer to address the session, reversing a ruling that had led to the walkout.

Former Qatari Justice Minister Najib Nuaimi then addressed the court on the legitimacy issue, arguing the court was not independent and that it was set up under the U.S.-led occupation and not a legal Iraqi government.

He said the language of the statute was unchanged from that put into effect by the former top U.S. administrator in Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, and was therefore "illegitimate," The Associated Press quoted him as testifying.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/05/saddam.hussein.trial/index.html

The Iraqi government should have been more involved in the creation of the court so this charge wouldn't have as much merit. They should have had a vote by the congress as to whether it was "legitimate" or not at the very least.

 

[Manny]

I love the picture on that article (and other ones). Saddam looks like the "Science!" guy from the Thomas Dolby video.

Ba ba Baaaaaaaaaaaa Bah
Saddam!
Ba bah Baaaaaaaa ba.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

I believe their second tack should be to claim that a fair trial is impossible on the grounds that there isn't a single person in Iraq who is truly neutral w.r.t. Saddam Hussein.

"Fair" is not necessarily the same as "neutral".

Shall we free any criminal who is notorious enough?

In the case of dictators, I favor simply killing them to having a show trial.

 

[MRC_Hans]

It's too late for that. They should have done it when they found him.

Hans

 

[toddjh]

The defense go for the obvious first move, reject the legitimacy of the court.

Is there really a point in that? I mean, do they expect the court to say, "Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I'll guess we'll just dissolve ourselves (not literally)?"

Jeremy

 

[The Don]

"Fair" is not necessarily the same as "neutral"..

Absolutely. In which case I'm willing to say that IMO there's no way that anyone required to jusge will be walking into the courtroom with an open mind.

Shall we free any criminal who is notorious enough?

This is one of the reasons given for a suspension of trial by jury. Better instead to find someone sufficiently "wise" to judge impartially on the evidence alone (of course such creatures do not exist)

In the case of dictators, I favor simply killing them to having a show trial.

One person's dictator is another person's firm ruler. State political assassination may not be a precedent we wish to set.

 

[jay gw]

The whole thing has been very poorly handled. What kind of idiot would let the lawyers for the former dictator wander around the streets? Everyone in the country knows a few people who were abused by his government.

If this is an example to Iraqis of what courts in a democracy are like it's an extremely bad example.

 

[The Don]

Everyone in the country knows a few people who were abused by his government.

Until proven otherwise....

Everyone in the country knows a few people who allege that they were abused by his government.

....although to prove otherwise should be pretty easy

 

[Mephisto]

I believe their second tack should be to claim that a fair trial is impossible on the grounds that there isn't a single person in Iraq who is truly neutral w.r.t. Saddam Hussein.

Yeah, and wouldn't it be great if they had the trial moved to Romania?

 

[Mephisto]

"Fair" is not necessarily the same as "neutral".

Shall we free any criminal who is notorious enough?

In the case of dictators, I favor simply killing them to having a show trial.

I agree wholeheartedly! Is there any doubt that he's guilty? Didn't we base our entire invasion (and subsequent loss of Bin Laden and Afghanistan) on his heinous adminstration?

I'm a firm believer that some people simply do not deserve to live - I say we could end the war tomorrow by having a public execution and WARN people that it won't be safe and they should bring as many weapons as they want to watch the execution. Then we sit back? Do you think that anyone BUT the insurgents and both sides of the "potential" civil war in Iraq would show up? Granted, it would be a bloodbath, but whoever survived might be less likely to finish the massacre and our troops could come home.

 

[The Don]

Yeah, and wouldn't it be great if they had the trial moved to Romania?

Of course not, Romania was part of the coalition of the willing.

Much better to have the trial in a country which:

- Is not part of the "nation of islam"
- Has not been part of any coalition to date
- Can not be unduly influenced by either of the above
- Has not sold arms to Iraq in the past
- Has not meddled in the internal affairs of Iraq in the past

Switzerland ?
Lesotho ?

 

[Ziggurat]

(and subsequent loss of Bin Laden and Afghanistan)

We lost Afghanistan? Are you sure? Where was the last place you remember putting it? Did you check under the couch? Behind the cushions? It's got to be around here somewhere...

 

[zenith-nadir]

Khalil Dulaimi (C), head attorney for Saddam Hussein, international advisors to Saddam Hussein (L to R) former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, Jordanian Issam Ghazawi, and former Qatari Justice Minister Najib al-Nueimi (David Furst/Pool/Reuters)

Presiding Judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin. (AP Photo/Stefan Zaklin, Pool)

 

[Mephisto]

Of course not, Romania was part of the coalition of the willing.

I know, I was making light of the rapidity Romanians handle a Dictator's trial.

 

[Mephisto]

We lost Afghanistan? Are you sure? Where was the last place you remember putting it? Did you check under the couch? Behind the cushions? It's got to be around here somewhere...

It's in the same drawer with the WMD!

Actually, we forgot to finish off the Taliban before we went hunting for Saddam. They're on the rise again, and our recent "incident" involving crispy critters and a loudspeaker won't fare well for the few soldiers left there.

 

[Mephisto]

Sorry, ZN - I just had to change the caption.

How we'll know Iraq has been "Democratized."

Attorney Ramsy Clark listens to Paula Abdul's comments on the First episode of "Iraqi Idol." At the podium, Saddam impersonator, Habib Al-Zarqawi mimics the dictator's outburst rather unconvincingly as fellow contestants look on.

 

[Mephisto]

My Public Apology

I'd like to publicly apologize to Zeneith-Nadir for "hijacking" his graphic. I got a warning for it (I believe it was #43.77) and don't want to jeopardize my membership here.

So, here it is, "I'm sorry Zenith-Nadir for making a mockery of your otherwise serious post and the accompanying graphic."

Mephisto

 

[Mephisto]

I've been keeping an eye on further developments in Saddam's trial, and I'm really disappointed that the judge in the trial doesn't take better command of the proceedings. Saddam and his co-defendants are disrupting the courtroom, jeering at the witnesses and being general buttholes (which, I guess, shouldn't be surprising considering they're serial-mass murderers).

What I find mildly amusing is the Iraqi spin is just as transparent as the U.S. spin. One of the co-dependants (Saddam's bro-in-law) interrupted a witness claiming she saw him at a reputed "torture center." He interrupted to interject that he was in fact there, but, "if she remembered correctly, he was there to kiss and give 40 "detainees" their freedom.

Yeah, right!

 

[Manny]

I've been keeping an eye on further developments in Saddam's trial, and I'm really disappointed that the judge in the trial doesn't take better command of the proceedings.

Yeah, they should have suspected something when the chief judge was revealed to be Rizgar Mohammed al-Ito.

 

[Mephisto]

Yeah, they should have suspected something when the chief judge was revealed to be Rizgar Mohammed al-Ito.

Hey! If the electrodes don't fit, you must acquit!

 

[Kerberos]

Is there really a point in that? I mean, do they expect the court to say, "Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I'll guess we'll just dissolve ourselves (not literally)?"

Jeremy

It would be futiel if it was adressed to the court, it wasn't though. For both sides the real audience are the Iraqis.

 

[Mephisto]

For both sides the real audience are the Iraqis.

You are so right about that, and I feel the possibility of civil war will be unavoidably addressed at the termination of this trial. We should all (on whatever side of the fence we inhabit) keep our fingers crossed here, because it will certainly determine if the concepts of democracy, freedom and justice can stand unaided in Iraq.

The sooner they're on their own, the sooner our guys come home.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Yeah, they should have suspected something when the chief judge was revealed to be Rizgar Mohammed al-Ito.

IMO Ito was one of the reasons OJ got off. He lost control and allowed the defense to hijack the court grandstanding for days. One sad example was allowing the defence to examine Fuhrman on his use of the N-word. That said, judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin has some pretty big egos to contend with, and has a far tougher job ahead of him than Ito ever did.

Today, Witness "A" testified about how she and many other families from Dujail were arrested in '82, imprisoned and torchered for four years. Witness "B" testified about how her family was arrested too, and Witness "C" testified about how he, his parents and two infant sisters spent 19 days at the intelligence headquarters and 11 months in Abu Ghraib. His father died from the beatings.

At this point Saddam interrupted the court and complained about his own conditions in detention. Man that guy is a piece of work.

 

[Mephisto]

I
. . . at this point Saddam interrupted the court and complained about his own conditions in detention. Man that guy is a piece of work.

As much as I think this trial is a waste of time, I guess it's important to show the Iraqis the concept of, innocent until proven guilty. It's almost impossible for most of us to conceive of anyone so grossly self-centered, but you're right - complaining about having to walk up the stairs to hear the testimony of people whose lives you've ruined horribly really solidifies my belief that some people simply don't deserve to live.

 

[rikzilla]

You are so right about that, and I feel the possibility of civil war will be unavoidably addressed at the termination of this trial. We should all (on whatever side of the fence we inhabit) keep our fingers crossed here, because it will certainly determine if the concepts of democracy, freedom and justice can stand unaided in Iraq.

The sooner they're on their own, the sooner our guys come home.

Place your bets fellas!

-z

 

[zenith-nadir]

The Saddam show ends today with another outburst from the drama queen.

Saddam Vows No Return to 'Unjust' Court

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Saddam Hussein shouted Tuesday that he will not return "to an unjust court" when it convenes for a fifth session the following day. As the end of the session, when the judges decided to resume the trial Wednesday, Saddam suddenly shouted: "I will not return. I will not come to an unjust court! Go to hell!"

Saddam also complained that he had no fresh clothes and had been deprived of shower and exercise facilities. "This is terrorism," he said.

(AP Photo)

 

[Jocko]

In a related development, Amnesty International is now accepting donations to buy Saddam a new suit and a haircut.

 

[Mephisto]

The Saddam show ends today with another outburst from the drama queen.

I saw this report today also and was surprised at the concern that Saddam might possibly not show up in court tomorrow.

Is this a real concern? I can't see where (even in a limp-wristed, liberal-run Democracy) he has a choice. Judges have called for boisterous defendants to be bound and gagged through proceedings and nothing would satisfy me more - of course, that might have the same consequences as, "Bring 'em on!"

 

[Manny]

In a related development, Amnesty International is now accepting donations to buy Saddam a new suit and a haircut.

He has only his own supporters to blame for his inability to get a haircut.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Is this a real concern?

I would imagine that would be "wllful disobedience" which would "interfer with Judge Amin's ability to administer justice" and therefore put Saddam in "contempt of court". Or they might just execute him.
I'm not up to speed in Iraqi law.

{edited to add}

Excerpts From Testimony in Saddam Trial - 6/Dec/05

 

[bigred]

This has no doubt already been said, but anyone else sense a sickeningly eerie similarity to the OJ trial here? ie a farce/circus/waste of time/etc?

Can't we just line these 2 up and let the beheaders hack away at people who actually deserve it for once??

 

[Skeptic]

Saddam also complained that he had no fresh clothes and had been deprived of shower and exercise facilities. "This is terrorism," he said.

As Churchill said to Roosevelt after Hitler called the allies' bombing of Rome a "war crime": "That's certainly an expert opinion."

 

[bigred]

Shame on everyone involved with that whole thing, to put it mildly. I almost hope they set him free, just so we can perhaps at last see the outrage and a nice painful death for him - which is what we SHOULD have already seen a long time ago.

This actually blows by the OJ absurdities on the sickening scale by a wide margin, and I regret how one could read my other post above and conclude I meant otherwise.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Dec 7, 7:36 AM (ET)

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Saddam Hussein boycotted his own trial in Baghdad on Wednesday, causing hours of chaotic delay before the court resumed with the former Iraqi president's chair empty.

His lead counsel told the judge Saddam, who had ended Tuesday's fourth session by telling his judges to 'Go to hell', would be absent; the judge called the first witness of the day.

Court officials say that in principle the trial can go ahead without the defendants present, but the court source said the chief judge was keen for Saddam to appear.

Saddam the drama queen.

Dec 7, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq (Associated Press) - The trial of Saddam Hussein and seven co-defendants was adjourned Wednesday until Dec. 21 after two witnesses testified in a truncated session which the ousted president did not attend.

After two prosecution witnesses described beatings and torture by the regime, Chief Judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin adjourned the proceedings and said the court would reconvene six days after the Dec. 15 parliamentary elections.

 

[Ziggurat]

Rock, paper, Saddam!

http://www.rockpapersaddam.com/

Saddam: Rock!
Judge: Two papers!

 

[bigred]

Rest my case.

I have to remember not to read this thread right before/after eating.

I think the US should pay him reparations for his troubles and discomfort. I'm sure I could get some rocket scientists out in Oregon or Calif. to get up a grass roots effort.