The Electric Comet Theory /SAFIRE Part VI

[Sol88]

Oh, look a comet asteroid!

New analysis of asteroid dust reveals evidence of salty water in the early solar system​

Asteroid Bennu was targeted for the OSIRIS-REx mission because remote sensing observations from Earth indicated it as a B-type asteroid. These asteroids are rich in carbon and hydrated clay minerals, possibly sharing similarities to the most primitive group of meteorites on Earth, known as carbonaceous chondrites.

Any hydrated clays found in/on comets?

Pristine asteroid samples reveal secrets of the ancient solar system​

Asteroid Bennu is thought to be made of rubble fragments from a 4.5-billion-year-old parent body, containing materials that originated beyond Saturn, which was destroyed long ago in a collision with another object.

The findings from returned samples of asteroid Bennu may provide researchers insight into what happens on distant icy bodies in our solar system, such as Saturn's moon Enceladus and the dwarf planet Ceres in the asteroid belt.


"Both Enceladus and Ceres have subsurface brine oceans," Associate Professor Timms said. "Even though asteroid Bennu has no life, the question is could other icy bodies harbor life?"

Good to see the comet/asteroid story coalesce.

The ELECTRIC COMET.


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[Sol88]

Errrr, when it encounters the solar wind? Otherwise, all you have is the photelectric effect. Want to answer your own question, given that the solar wind is getting nowhere near the comet for months on end?

Yeah, ok.

Conclusions.

Collisional cooling of electrons following a radial outward path is not sufficient to explain the observations. We suggest that the ambipolar electric field keeps electrons in the inner coma for a much longer time, giving them time to dissipate energy by collisions with the neutrals. We conclude that better models are required to describe the plasma environment of comets. They need to include at least two populations of electrons and the ambipolar field.

What's this ambipolar electric field?

Impact ionisation, anyone?

 

[jonesdave116]

What's this ambipolar electric field?

How many times does it need explaining? An ambipolar field arises to preserve quasi-neutrality. It really is very simple.

 

[jonesdave116]

Good to see the comet/asteroid story coalesce.

It hasn't. Asteroids are asteroids. Comets are comets. There are some bodies which seem to be intermediate between the two. None of which is of any relevance to the electric comet woo.

 

[Sol88]

How many times does it need explaining? An ambipolar field arises to preserve quasi-neutrality. It really is very simple.

The ELECTRIC COMET!




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[Sol88]

It hasn't. Asteroids are asteroids. Comets are comets. There are some bodies which seem to be intermediate between the two. None of which is of any relevance to the electric comet woo.

Ok.

Asteroid Bennu was targeted for the OSIRIS-REx mission because remote sensing observations from Earth indicated it as a B-type asteroid. These asteroids are rich in carbon and hydrated clay minerals, possibly sharing similarities to the most primitive group of meteorites on Earth, known as carbonaceous chondrites.

Righto then...

ELECTRIC COMET MODEL:
• Comets are debris produced during violent electrical interactions of planets
and moons in an earlier phase of solar system history. Comets are similar to
asteroids, and their composition varies. Most comets should be homogeneous—
their interiors will have the same composition as their surfaces. They
are simply “asteroids on eccentric orbits.”

I wonder what the MAINSTREAM reckon?

We are continuing to investigate Bennu using the pristine samples collected back in 2020. We are currently researching the timing of the Bennu parent body breakup event and looking for evidence of impacts recorded by various minerals in the samples.

What's this "break up event" and what "parent body", jd116?

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[Sol88]

jonesdave116 said:


It hasn't. Asteroids are asteroids. Comets are comets. There are some bodies which seem to be intermediate between the two. None of which is of any relevance to the electric comet woo.

Samples returned from the asteroid Ryugu are similar to Ivuna-type carbonaceous meteorites​

Phyllosilicate minerals are the main host of water in the Ryugu samples. The amount of structural water in Ryugu is similar to that in CI chondrites, but interlayer water is largely absent in Ryugu, which suggests a loss of interlayer water to space. The abundance of structural water and results from dehydration experiments indicate that the Ryugu samples remained below ~100°C from the time of aqueous alteration until the present. We ascribe the removal of interlayer water to a combination of impact heating, solar heating, solar wind irradiation, and long-term exposure to the ultrahigh vacuum of space. The loss of interlayer water from phyllosilicates could be responsible for the comet-like activity of some carbonaceous asteroids and the ejection of solid material from the surface of asteroid Bennu.

​

Rogee...

Spitzer Spectral Observations of the Deep Impact Ejecta​

Spitzer Space Telescope imaging spectrometer observations of comet 9P/Tempel 1 during the Deep Impact encounter returned detailed, highly structured, 5- to 35-micrometer spectra of the ejecta. Emission signatures due to amorphous and crystalline silicates, amorphous carbon, carbonates, phyllosilicates, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, water gas and ice, and sulfides were found. Good agreement is seen between the ejecta spectra and the material emitted from comet C/1995 O1 (Hale-Bopp) and the circumstellar material around the young stellar object HD100546. The atomic abundance of the observed material is consistent with solar and C1 chondritic abundances, and the dust-to-gas ratio was determined to be greater than or equal to 1.3. The presence of the observed mix of materials requires efficient methods of annealing amorphous silicates and mixing of high- and low-temperature phases over large distances in the early protosolar nebula.

So, Asteroids are asteroids. Comets are comets.

Right.

 

[Sol88]

I'll bite.

There are some bodies which seem to be intermediate between the two.

Which ones? What are the characteristics?


Bunnu and Ryugu are in the solid ASTEROID classification, I take it?

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[jonesdave116]

The ELECTRIC COMET!




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Nope, basic plasma physics as known for many decades before your cult even existed.

 

[Ziggurat]

Thanks for waiting steenkh...

There's more than just gravity at work in the solar system​

Why are you linking to what amounts to a press release about the paper instead of the paper itself? And this isn't news. But it's not enough to just note that there are other forces. The magnitude of those forces matters. Which is where figure 12 of the paper comes in. They do the math (something the EUtards never even try) and calculate how big those forces are. And how big are they? From less than 0.00005 times the force of gravity to less than 0.0000000000000000001 times the force of gravity.

Yeah, that's really going to show those gravity guys how irrelevant gravity is compared to electromagnetism.

 

[Sol88]

Nope, basic plasma physics as known for many decades before your cult even existed.

Agreed.

Basic plasma physics.

Electric field measurements at the plasma frequency around comet 67P by RPC-MIP on board Rosetta​

Results. We are showing that strong electric field emissions at the plasma frequency near 67P were present sporadically throughout the period when Rosetta was escorting the comet, without being continuous, as the occurrence rate is reported to be of about 1% of all the measured RPC-MIP passive spectra showing strong electric field emissions. The Langmuir wave activity monitored by RPC-MIP showed measurable enhancements during SIR or CME interactions and near perihelion.

Langmuir wave get a touch up when the SOLAR PLASMA whips past!

 

[Sol88]

Why are you linking to what amounts to a press release about the paper instead of the paper itself? And this isn't news. But it's not enough to just note that there are other forces. The magnitude of those forces matters. Which is where figure 12 of the paper comes in. They do the math (something the EUtards never even try) and calculate how big those forces are. And how big are they? From less than 0.00005 times the force of gravity to less than 0.0000000000000000001 times the force of gravity.

Yeah, that's really going to show those gravity guys how irrelevant gravity is compared to electromagnetism.

Planetary Systems.​

But

How's the LORENTZ FORCE go, compared to GRAVITY, when you are try to "move" PLASMA?

In exoplanetary systems and debris disks, nongravitational forces affect the lifetimes of circumstellar particles and feed refractory debris to the photospheres of the central stars.

Including charged DUST, a complex PLASMA.

or a you still talking orbits?

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[Sol88]

jd116, would also know, of course, that the SOLAR PLASMA (Sun winds) is getting NOWHERE near the nucleus.

So where are all these ELECTRONS (including negativity CHARGED DUST) coming from?

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Observations of a mix of cold and warm electrons by RPC-MIP at 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko​

The influence of the ambipolar electric potential, associated to the cometary plasma inhomogeneities and localized around the comet nucleus, in terms of particle trapping, might facilitate the electron cooling. This hypothesis shall be investigate in further details from global modeling (Deca et al. 2017, 2019; Sishtla et al. 2019) to investigate the physical processes at the origin of the cold electron population far from perihelion reported in this study.

ok

Therefore, the observation of cold electrons by RPC-MIP at the end of the Rosetta cometary operations is not consistent with the cooling of newborn electrons that are ballistically escaping the inner coma region, but is rather consistent with electron that would stay longer in the denser inner cometary atmosphere region, and therefore with electrons that got trapped in the inner coma by the ambipolar electric field as shown in recent kinetic simulations of cometary electron dynamics (Deca et al. 2017, 2019; Sishtla et al. 2019).

No Solar wind though, so...




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[Ziggurat]

How's the LORENTZ FORCE go, compared to GRAVITY, when you are try to "move" PLASMA?

Do the math, and you can find out.

But you won't, because you can't.

 

[Sol88]

Why is the solar wind not reaching the surface of the comet, again, jd116?

outgassing or double layer?

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[Sol88]

Do the math, and you can find out.

But you won't, because you can't.

Sure.

Would you like to pop back into the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE thread. Better to discuss the abysmal failure of the GRAVITY model.


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[jonesdave116]

Agreed.

Basic plasma physics.

Electric field measurements at the plasma frequency around comet 67P by RPC-MIP on board Rosetta​

Langmuir wave get a touch up when the SOLAR PLASMA whips past!

And.....? Do I need to remind you what the electric comet woo says? And it has precisely nothing to do with plasma physics, and was invented by people with zero clue about the subject.

 

[jonesdave116]

Sure.

Would you like to pop back into the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE thread. Better to discuss the abysmal failure of the GRAVITY model.


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Making stuff up again does not constitute a valid argument.

 

[Sol88]

And.....? Do I need to remind you what the electric comet woo says? And it has precisely nothing to do with plasma physics, and was invented by people with zero clue about the subject.

You are a giggle, jd116!

Basic question.

What is a comet?

To narrow the focus on the ELECTRIC COMET and the DIRTYSNOWBALL, the ROSETTA mission confirmed the existence of "jets".

It is now thought that "jets" are?
and

How Do Cometary Jets Work?

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[jonesdave116]

You are a giggle, jd116!

Basic question.

What is a comet?

To narrow the focus on the ELECTRIC COMET and the DIRTYSNOWBALL, the ROSETTA mission confirmed the existence of "jets".

It is now thought that "jets" are?
and

How Do Cometary Jets Work?

.

We already knew what jets were. Duh!

 

[Sol88]

Involves dust and sublimation, yeah?


Credits: ESA/Rosetta/MPS for OSIRIS Team MPS/UPD/LAM/IAA/SSO/INTA/UPM/DASP/IDA

As such, the nucleus is deliberately overexposed in order to reveal faint jets and the collimated nature of the streams of gas and dust rising from the surface.

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[jonesdave116]

Involves dust and sublimation, yeah?

View attachment 58883
Credits: ESA/Rosetta/MPS for OSIRIS Team MPS/UPD/LAM/IAA/SSO/INTA/UPM/DASP/IDA






.

As observed. What are you struggling with? When we look at jets spectroscopically, we see GAS. Cold, neutral, GAS. And the DUST is what is reflecting the sunlight. That is why it has a solar spectrum. And of course they are faint. The material of the comet's surface has an albedo of ~ < 5%. So, the DUST in the jets is going to have a low albedo isn't it? Only on a handful of occasions were the jets brighter than the nucleus. Likely caused by ice entrained along with the dust. Just as was seen at Hartley 2.

 

[Sol88]

As observed.

What I'm struggling with is, when we get down in the weeds, it's not how it works. Is it now JD116.

All this data and time from an comet escort mission and you are still clutching straws

and still...

Overall then, important questions about the cometary activity mechanism still remain unanswered, and it is still a struggle to explain how dust of various sizes is broken off and lifted from the surface.

What the hell are the "scientist" doing? It's embarrassing.

Your dirtysnowball is dead. Has been for sometime. The struggle is real!

Little bit more $$$$ and a few dedicated mission and i;m sure you'll find the same fatal problems for your mainstream dirtysnowball model.

I'll start with the NUCLEUS is CHARGED (with respect to the solar PLASMA) the DUST is CHARGED and responding to ELECTRIC FIELDS.

Sublimation is a bust!

 

[jonesdave116]

As observed.

What I'm struggling with is, when we get down in the weeds, it's not how it works. Is it now JD116.

All this data and time from an comet escort mission and you are still clutching straws

and still...



What the hell are the "scientist" doing? It's embarrassing.

Your dirtysnowball is dead. Has been for sometime. The struggle is real!

Little bit more $$$$ and a few dedicated mission and i;m sure you'll find the same fatal problems for your mainstream dirtysnowball model.

I'll start with the DUST is CHARGED and responding to ELECTRIC FIELDS.

Sublimation is a bust!

Gibberish. Sublimation is observed. Get over it. And the dust is entrained in GAS not in non-existent electric fields.

 

[Sol88]

Seems you are wrong.

Your model is bust. You can do your song and dance on sublimation and GAS but it don't work like that.

or are you saying N Attree et al are wrong? Their maths works out. The ASSUMPTION on the other hand...

Q is your BIGGEST assumption

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[jonesdave116]

Seems you are wrong.

Your model is bust. You can do your song and dance on sublimation and GAS but it don't work like that.

or are you saying N Attree et al are wrong? Their maths works out. The ASSUMPTION on the other hand...

Q is your BIGGEST assumption

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No, I'm not wrong. Sublimation is observed and dust is observed to be entrained by gas. Get over it.

 

[jonesdave116]

or are you saying N Attree et al are wrong? Their maths works out. The ASSUMPTION on the other hand...

Is a lie. Point to any paper by him that says sublimation is not happening. Otherwise quit with the lies. You have no science.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Why are you still wasting time posting here Sol88? Under the current US government you have a good chance of becoming head of NASA.

 

[Sol88]

Is a lie. Point to any paper by him that says sublimation is not happening. Otherwise quit with the lies. You have no science.

Sublimation model of comets is incorrect. The new data from recent missions and experiments have now CONFIRMED this mechanism to NOT be the DOMINATE DRIVER of cometary activity.

Do you even do science?

Where are all these ELECTRONS and CHARGED DUST coming from, we most definTLY OBSERVE this.

Your SUBLIMATION model fell over using the 1957 Haser model as the basis for Q, the "outgassing" rate.

The Haser model was pivotal in helping astronomers understand the composition and behavior of cometary comas, leading to more accurate measurements of the amount of gas and dust being ejected by comets. It also contributed to refining our understanding of the dynamics of comet tails.

Radial Distribution of Gas: The model provides an explanation for the distribution of gases in the coma. It suggests that the concentration of a gas decreases as you move away from the nucleus, with a more significant density closer to the nucleus and a gradual decrease outward.

Well that's wrong, Not even close to an approximation. Just at guess at best.

Outgassing Process: As the comet heats up near the Sun, volatile materials such as water, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide SUBLIMATE from the nucleus. This outgassing produces the coma and also drives the formation of the comet’s tail, via dust entranment.

This is YOUR model jd116. and you cant get the dust to entrain in the GAS, so?

 

[Sol88]

Comets are CHARGED rocks on eccentric orbits. Pretty simple.

Results. We are showing that strong electric field emissions at the plasma frequency near 67P were present sporadically throughout the period when Rosetta was escorting the comet, without being continuous, as the occurrence rate is reported to be of about 1% of all the measured RPC-MIP passive spectra showing strong electric field emissions. The Langmuir wave activity monitored by RPC-MIP showed measurable enhancements during SIR or CME interactions and near perihelion.

At what point does the "dust" from the surface of the nucleus become CHARGED and respond to these STRONG ELECTRIC FIELDS?

There are quite a few electrons that can stick to the dust (making it a PLASMA, complex PLASMA but still a PLASMA making the MATH HARD) These are MASSIVE negative particles. We "see" this in our pretty pictures, like this one....

 

[Ziggurat]

Hey Sol88, when did you last change your signature? I'm not sure I noticed it before, but your signature says that plasma is a gas.

 

[Sol88]

Hey Sol88, when did you last change your signature? I'm not sure I noticed it before, but your signature says that plasma is a gas.

Would you feel more comfortable with ionised gas instead of PLASMA?


IONSED GAS - ELECTRIC FIELDS - FIELD ALIGNED CURRENTS

Is that more acceptable?

 

[steenkh]

Would you feel more comfortable with ionised gas instead of PLASMA?


IONSED GAS - ELECTRIC FIELDS - FIELD ALIGNED CURRENTS

Is that more acceptable?

I also noticed the change, and like Ziggurat, I am pleasantly surprised that after all these years, you seem to have learnt one small thing! Way to go!

 

[Sol88]

I also noticed the change, and like Ziggurat, I am pleasantly surprised that after all these years, you seem to have learnt one small thing! Way to go!

Ionized Gas​

Dive into the world of Physics and explore the intriguing concept of ionized gas in this comprehensive guide. This in-depth analysis provides a clear definition of ionized gas, highlighting its unique properties and key differences when compared to neutral gas. You will be enlightened on real-life instances where gas transitions into plasma and the causes and effects of such ionization. Drawing from experimental findings, the text further examines applications and the colossal role of ionized gas in the realm of modern physics. Prepare to broaden your knowledge base on this vital Physics subject of ionized gas.

Ionized Gas​

There are three states of matter we are familiar with: solid, liquid, and gas. We don?t even need to define them anymore; their names are their definitions. But there?s the fourth state of matter which many aren?t too knowledgeable about (some may not even know there?s such a thing). It?s called plasma or ionized gas.

Not many know that it?s not just plasma TVs and plasma balls in museums which have ionized gas or plasma. When gas is ionized it specifically means gas electrons have been charged enough to let them escape atoms or molecules (positive ionization). When this happens there is always a visual manifestation no matter how slight, and they usually are spectacular to behold.

Take, for example, the inside of fluorescent lamps and neon signs, lightning, St. Elmo?s fire, and the auroras. A lot in outer space are made of plasma?the Sun, stars and solar wind, the space between stars, planets and galaxies, and nebulas. In fact it is plasma which is the most common state of matter in outer space, which only makes sense because if the stars and the space between almost everything in the universe is plasma, then that is indeed a lot of ionized gas.

Galactic Ionized Gas

Are you more comfortable if I call it IONISED GAS, steenkh? Cant see how you'd be any better off calling PLASMA an IONISED GAS when it may not have been GAS that was IONISED.

You are aware, I take it, that they reckon the UNIVERSE was ALL PLASMA at some point. Not GAS.

What you CAN NOT call it is GAS.






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[Sol88]

What should we call IONISED DUST?

Just so we are all on the same page.

I call it

Dusty plasma​

Dust particles are charged and the plasma and particles behave as a plasma.

You may have noticed the sentence did not say

Dust particles are charged and the ionised dust and particles behave as a IONISED GAS,

Makes no sense, like some people in this thread.

I'll give you some leeway, as you've have only recently discovered that ELECTRONS are a PLASMA. Or IONISED GAS (of just ELECTRONS).

You'd be ok then if I just call IONISED GAS

PLASMA - DOUBLE LAYERS - BIRKELAND CURRENTS


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[Sol88]

All GAS no PLASMA not even IONISED GAS.

The Haser Model

The radial distribution of molecules in the head of a comet is
investigated theoretically. Formulae for comparison with the
observations are given (Haser 1957).
Taking Whipple’s cometary model (Whipple 1951) as a basis,
we have calculated the radial distribution of molecules in the head
of a comet and the distribution of observable intensity that results.

We adopt the following hypotheses:
1. The comet has a spherical nucleus of radius r0, and its
matter evaporates as a result of absorbing solar radiation.
The molecules leave the surface of the nucleus in every
direction with a radial speed v0.
2. The molecules emit light according to their resonant
frequencies after being excited by sunlight.
3. The molecules are disintegrated by photodissociation
following the law

The DIRTYSNOWBALL.

on the other hand,

Oh, mainstream have NO MODEL. How embarrassing.

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[steenkh]

Are you more comfortable if I call it IONISED GAS, steenkh? Cant see how you'd be any better off calling PLASMA an IONISED GAS when it may not have been GAS that was IONISED.

You can call it plasma, or ionised gas, as you like. It is the same thing.

You are aware, I take it, that they reckon the UNIVERSE was ALL PLASMA at some point. Not GAS.

There you go again! Don’t you ever learn? All plasmas are gases. But plasma is more accurate because the term is narrower.

What you CAN NOT call it is GAS.

Of course I can, and it would not be wrong.

 

[Ziggurat]

Would you feel more comfortable with ionised gas instead of PLASMA?


IONSED GAS - ELECTRIC FIELDS - FIELD ALIGNED CURRENTS

Is that more acceptable?

Way to miss the point. I have no problem with you calling a plasma, plasma. But you kept insisting that plasma wasn't a kind of gas. And your signature says it is.

 

[Sol88]

Great news. I'll keep calling it PLASMA to ease the confusion mainstream have on GAS and PLASMA. They don't even bother calling it ionised gas, just gas.

 

[Sol88]

Asteroid Ryugu samples suggest presence of salty water in outer solar system​

samples recovered from Ryugu during the initial phase of Japan's Hayabusa2 mission. The discovery of these deposits, containing sodium carbonate, halite, and sodium sulfates, suggest that liquid saline water once existed within a parent body of Ryugu.

Before examining the samples, the team expected that sample grains returned from the asteroid might contain substances not generally found in meteorites. They anticipated that these could be highly water-soluble materials, which readily react with moisture in Earth's atmosphere and are difficult to detect unless examined in their pristine state as preserved in the vacuum of space.

It should be "outgassing" then... let's ask the AI.

Comet Ryugu?

Evidence of Outgassing: Hayabusa2 detected evidence of small jets of gas and possibly dust particles being released from the asteroid's surface. These jets were thought to be due to thermal stress (heat-induced expansion and contraction), which might cause material to be expelled from the surface in bursts. This is somewhat similar to how comets outgas when they get closer to the Sun.

What was the ELECTRIC FIELD detection at Ryugu?

Lets ask again...

What Was Found?​

1. Electric Field on Ryugu: Hayabusa2 detected that the surface of Ryugu has a weak but detectable electric field. This electric field was likely generated by the interaction between the asteroid and the solar wind—a stream of charged particles emitted by the Sun.
2. Interaction with Solar Wind: The electric field is thought to arise from the way Ryugu interacts with the charged particles in the solar wind. As Ryugu moves through space, the solar wind interacts with its surface, causing a buildup of charges that could create an electric field. The asteroid’s low gravity means that particles are easily influenced by these electric forces, and the field could play a role in dust movement on the asteroid’s surface.
3. Electrostatic Levitation: One of the interesting possibilities raised by the detection of an electric field is the phenomenon of electrostatic levitation. On small asteroids like Ryugu, dust particles could be lifted or moved around the surface by the electric fields. This could help explain the presence of small dust clouds or particles that are seen to hover above the surface of asteroids. This could also affect the way material on Ryugu is distributed and might provide a mechanism for how loose materials stay suspended, despite the weak gravity.

No SUBLIMATION? How are the "jets" of gas n dust formed on an ASTEROID.


Searched for:

One such paper was published in Nature Communications in 2020, titled:

• "Observation of an electric field around the asteroid Ryugu"
  by T. T. Tsuda et al., on behalf of the Hayabusa2 team.

Cant find a copy?

This study presents data from the Plasma and Dust Instrument (PDS) aboard Hayabusa2, which detected the weak but detectable electric field near the asteroid's surface. It discusses the potential causes of the electric field, including interactions between the asteroid and the solar wind. The paper also explores the implications of these electric fields for dust behavior and surface interactions on Ryugu, particularly with respect to electrostatic levitation and dust dynamics.

electric fields for dust behavior and surface interactions, interesting for comets too!