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Teach history the RIGHT way! Backwards!

The Great Zaganza

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Aug 14, 2016
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25,970
seriously, this should be an absolute no-brainer:

- people need to know what is going on NOW way more than they need to know about how the pyramids were build

- it's easier to start teaching from a common ground than having to establish one

- it's better to go from solid, plentiful sources to vague, few ones

- way less political and controversial, as the focus is on the past, not the future
 
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seriously, this should be an absolute no-brainer:

- people need to know what is going on NOW way more than they need to know about how the pyramids were build

- it's easier to start teaching from a common ground than having to establish one

- it's better to go from solid, plentiful sources to vague, few ones

- way less political and controversial, as the focus is on the past, not the future

What is going on now isn't history yet.

The problem with teaching history backwards is cause and effect. How do you understand the causes of the Second World War if you don't know anything about the First World War?
 
Or the War of 1812? Or the War of the Roses?

And that movie?

And the Norman Conquest.

It was 1066.
 
What is going on now isn't history yet.

The problem with teaching history backwards is cause and effect. How do you understand the causes of the Second World War if you don't know anything about the First World War?

It's very useful, psychologically, to first talk about the effects of War and only afterwards why people thought that that might be a price worth paying.
going backwards makes it much better to see how effects were completely over- or underestimated.

And, of course, talking about the reasons why your country went to war prejudges on how the outcome is to be perceived.
 
Talking to children about current events, guiding their perception and judgement of those events, is the domain of parenting. Teachers should stick to the old stuff that has a mainstream consensus already.
 
Most fundamentally, learning about why the world is the way it is from antiquity makes it seem that the current state is inevitable and unchangeable.

Looking from the Present to the Past give us the chance to evaluate things they way they are, not the way they were planned decades/centuries ago.
 
Talking to children about current events, guiding their perception and judgement of those events, is the domain of parenting. Teachers should stick to the old stuff that has a mainstream consensus already.

That is only an issue if you think that there is a disagreement about what Teachers and Parents would be to teaching.
Do you think that parents generally have better access to contemporary information, or do you think it's the parents' right to teach their kids false information for ideological purposes?

Whatever mainstream consensus we have about anything comes from Teaching, not from parenting.
 
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Discussion about the current events in the middle-east should be taken to a thread already discussing those events.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
I think that people vastly overstate the importance of historical events for current decision making: people do what they do because it seems like a good idea Here and Now, not because of something someone may or may not have done centuries ago.
Add to that the fact that keep on retelling stories of the past differently over time, and the idea that "we are in this situation because of what happened XXXX years ago" is pretty far out there.
More convincing is the story "we are in this situation because of what someone recently wrote about what happened XXXX years ago".

Also, there is basically no chance for us to understand any historical life by jumping in one go from our level of technology to the stone age.
It's far more intuitive to chip away at out level of technology, showing what the precursors were or what is genuinely novel, and get to know the last century before moving onto the next.
Otherwise, we end up with something like Steampunk or The Flintstones in our minds.
 
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I wonder why this comes in as a binary issue. One can argue all sorts of ways in which history is badly taught. But I am not convinced that one must sacrifice the study of history in order to squeeze in current events, and would suggest that an understanding of history is useful in understanding what is happening now and why.

I see all sorts of instances of people interpreting current events and current issues as if they had sprung from nothing. It might not change your point of view much, but an understanding of history seems worthwhile in understanding, for example, the Israeli and Ukrainian conflicts. On a less belligerent local level, we have people bucking against environmental, work safety, food and drug, child labor, and other regulations as if they had been conceived by power-mad politicians, and not in response to real conditions.

If you're going to pine for the good old days, you'd do well to take a hard look at whether they were as good as the tendentious tales would have you believe.

People have short memories and a tendency not to see how we got where we are. Santayana famously said that those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. I don't suppose it is either that inevitable or that simple, but it certainly seems too close to happening too often to dismiss.

I don't think there is much common ground to be seen in current events. We can usually agree that a war is happening when a war occurs, but little else, and these days we cannot even agree that mass murders and moon landings and threats to the existence of the earth itself are real. There's plenty of room for polarization and argument in history, but in current events it's the starting point.
 
Its not a bad idea, as I'm sure I've said before, in the US history tends to stop at WW2, the last week or so of history classes in secondary school tend to speed through the more recent past as an afterthought.
 
A big part of the problem for recent history is that the key players are often not dead yet. Lots of papers and documents needed won't be accessible until after someone die. Still waiting for Kissinger to croak so more about Vietnam policy becomes public, for one example.

Then there is an even bigger problem of trying to figure out what is important. In the near term that which seems important will likely change as events become less current. And then there is the sticky issue of needing to revise what is taught as perspectives change.

History classes as taught in US high schools have a problem of having been sanitized to get out the juicy bits leaving behind a string of dates names with little in the way of humanity to connect people and make them real. And this is before we get to the current trend of trying to make slavery look not so bad in some states.

University level classes tend to be a lot more interesting than what gets covered in a US high school.
 
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Neat idea. The way I approach it as a non-educator is take some major thing today and ask why it is done that way. Why do we borrow money, why we pay taxes, why the system is the way it is, etc.
 
And rather than teaching the kids how to add, subtract, divide and multiply, let's start them out with the calculus.
 
In learning history there is a failure mode where everything just seems to be "one damn thing after another", with no coherent relationship. But while there is a lot of randomness and contingency in the unfolding of historical events, there are also long term trends that can help us to put local events in to a coherent framework that makes sense of them.

My own understanding of, and interest in, history has been significantly helped by started from a large scale and then moving inward. Humans evolved in Africa and from there spread through the Middle East into Europe and Asia. When our technology made it possible we extended our range into and across more hostile environments (further north for instance), at the same time changes in climate made some barriers to migration less hostile (ice ages lower sea levels and made access to Australia and the Americas more feasible, later melting ice made migration into the Americas from the north possible, etc.).
There is a lot more depth to go into here on different ways of life in hunter-gather societies and social organization, but a broad picture of the story of human migration and how and when people ended up colonizing the globe seems useful.
Around 10,000 BC agriculture was developed, first in the Fertile Crescent, and over then next few thousand years populations grew in size and complexity of organization. Eventually this lead to the first civilizations that you'll hear about and talk about in more detail. The same happened a few thousand years later in China, and then thousands of years later still in Africa and the Americas.
The growth of complexity and size in those early societies lead to a division of labour and a marketplace in which new ideas could be put to use, and technological progress accelerated. Larger states with greater state capacity were able to put some of this to use in things like large scale irrigation projects which expanded the area of cultivated land. This sort of expansion as agricultural technology developed broadening the areas where agriculture was economically feasible shows itself in the form of the expansion of "civilization" (state societies based on agriculture).
As wealth grew so did the returns to trade, but as the technology of trade developed (better ships, larger road networks) so too did the controllable size of states, and states and empires grew larger.

Etc.

This sort of higher level view of history is interesting but also allows us to put into context the more local level events that we might be learning about, as they were part of some particular phase of historical development. Learning about the events first without the context of the higher level view makes them seem much less relevant, and harder to put in relation to each other.
 
Yeah, it's hard to understand current events without knowing how we got here.

I would argue that we don't know how we got here, because we the way we teach history is as a reflection of today, not the other way around. That leans to, sometimes extreme, biases on what we do and do not consider relevant or even correct, although we do have solid data - we make our history fit our sense of the presence, and that means that we don't understand current events from their history, we understand history from current events.

So if you want to learn about the Present, teach history as if it is leading up to the Now - but if you want to teach History, the more logical approach is going back to the start from where you are.
 
During my days in academia I was known as “Doctor Back-to-the-Greeks” because even teaching computer science and information systems I always found it useful to go through how current knowledge has come to be.

Fascinating for me. And I hope useful for the students.
 
I almost mentioned James Burke's Connections series in an earlier post. It's a great presentation of the way that things lead to other things, which lead to subsequently other things.

Highly recommended. He very recently did a fourth series. He was interviewed about it on The Skeptics Guide to the Universe about it recently. Steve is a fan.
 
There's an old TV series I found fascinating called "connections" It traced how discoveries/inventions led to others. Now that's history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(British_TV_series)

I almost mentioned James Burke's Connections series in an earlier post. It's a great presentation of the way that things lead to other things, which lead to subsequently other things.

Highly recommended. He very recently did a fourth series. He was interviewed about it on The Skeptics Guide to the Universe about it recently. Steve is a fan.

Yeah, Connections was awesome. Definitely a unique, interesting, and engaging approach to teaching history and I think it works well.

He also had a similar series call, I think, The Day the Universe Changed, which was also excellent.
 
I think that actually the main problem with teaching history at a pre-academy level is that it's reduced to a rote memorization of names and dates, with no real insight as to why or how. Which even I found boring as all hell, much as later I became interested in it. But as it was taught in school, by the elder gods, it was even more boring than geography, which i could at least visualize on a map. And believe me, that says a lot. I hated geography.

In that aspect, yeah, you could probably teach it front to back, back to front, or in random order, and it would be just as boring and pointless.

And yeah, there is nothing to learn from that that would apply to the modern day or teach you how to avoid repeating it. Because it doesn't go into why that happened, for what reason, or what false judgment went into making that decision.

Once you get past that level though, and you start learning the HOW and WHY, yeah, it kinda matters to know what happened before, because it's the premise for that how and why.
 
I almost mentioned James Burke's Connections series in an earlier post. It's a great presentation of the way that things lead to other things, which lead to subsequently other things.

Highly recommended. He very recently did a fourth series. He was interviewed about it on The Skeptics Guide to the Universe about it recently. Steve is a fan.

Loved that show as a kid and I thought of it too, its not quite teaching history backwards but kind of. It very much influenced my love of both history and science.

I've tried watching it as an adult, doesn't hold up in my opinion. Very dated, lotta connections made that are pretty tenuous. I think he's currently producing a the follow up series.

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...ic-sci-doc-series-returns-with-original-host/

Edit, never mind, looks like its out.
 
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What about Social Studies class?
Parents' job. Schools should just teach the 3 r's. And no socializing - except on the playground, where they learn to accept their place in the pecking order.

New Zealand has the right idea. The new government is banning the use of cellphones in schools, and primary and intermediate schools will have to teach an hour of reading, writing and maths per day. And none of that 'new math' crap either!
 
Loved that show as a kid and I thought of it too, its not quite teaching history backwards but kind of. It very much influenced my love of both history and science.

I've tried watching it as an adult, doesn't hold up in my opinion. Very dated, lotta connections made that are pretty tenuous. I think he's currently producing a the follow up series.

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...ic-sci-doc-series-returns-with-original-host/

Edit, never mind, looks like its out.

A reason "Connections" connected with me is that in grade school I was the laggard in the classroom. Didn't remember my arithmetic tables etc. and had to stay during recess to go over the stuff I was supposed to know. I hate apparently mindless memorization.

Then, in the 6th grade, I discovered shortcuts. The abacus, Trachtenburg methods, and the magic of the sliderule which led to logarithms. Then I got interested in chemistry and physics. Wow! So that's what math's for. By the 8th grade I was several years ahead of my classmates and no longer learning squat Most of my learning was books from the library or the Boston Museum of Science's library. I'd flick from physics to math to chemistry. Each would provide incentive to lean more and move to the next.

This worked great until encountering quantum mechanics and associated math second year in college. I was used to having already had the background and would skip class figuring I'd do fine on the exams. Oops. Flunked everything except a grad level EE class with a great prof I actually went to and loved. Got an A+ in it. Repeated and passed the flunked classes and graduated. During the wait to repeat, I got some great work experience at Analog Devices as a tech. Invaluable, as it turned out. I wouldn't change a thing in hindsight.

I have a really hard time memorizing stuff. But once a connection is established with something else, it's locked in. And suddenly things make sense and remembering them is automatic.

Probably why I liked the show so much.
 
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I took a current events class in high school that taught me more about history than any history class I took. We would talk about the front page stories of the day and it was fascinating. I think part of what made it work was our teacher’s dogged preparation, but also I was taking other history classes. So, the framework was there, even if it wasn’t properly filled out. We would have guest teachers when there was a story that our teacher knew could be more fully described by another teacher, and that was really weird. A Spanish teacher who was a bit boring while discussing grammar lit up when talking about a story in South America near where he had lived for a dozen years.

I also took a property law course that started with the latest Supreme Court case on property law and then went backwards from there to feudal lords. It was much more structured and I loved the professor, but I found it harder to follow than the other first year classes I was taking at the time, like criminal law or civil procedure. Learning the law is a bit more like math than history. Learn to add before you integrate. Learn what property is before worrying about takings clause issues.

I think it is good to teach subjects in a variety of ways so that every learner has a class that clicks for them. But I’m not a teacher or an education researcher, so I’ll leave it to them.
 
Or you can go to a museum and learn how certain objects have 'power' and need to be treated with 'respect' here is a paper on just what has to be done published by the American Museum of Natural History in 2021...

https://www.culturalheritage.org/do...--tjiong-paulson-beatty.pdf?sfvrsn=a83a1420_9
Fascinating.

Here's another object which is said to be very powerful. Just looks like an old piece of paper with funny writing on it to me. I hear Trump used it for toilet paper, and why not? Not much else a moldy old founders' document is good for. They had funny beliefs too - best forget about those guys and concentrate on the 3 R's!
 
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