Cont: Scorpion's Spiritualism, Part Deux

Or perhaps "How do I know what I think I know?"
That was my original phrasing, but I changed it because "what I think I know" doesn't reflect peoples' state of knowledge. It's more important to ask this question of things you know for absolute sure, rather than the things you're already questioning.

Like Scorpion's spirits. He absolutely knows they exist with zero doubt. They're the things that it's most important to ask the question about.
 
That was my original phrasing, but I changed it because "what I think I know" doesn't reflect peoples' state of knowledge. It's more important to ask this question of things you know for absolute sure, rather than the things you're already questioning.

Like Scorpion's spirits. He absolutely knows they exist with zero doubt. They're the things that it's most important to ask the question about.

I didn't intend to necessarily imply doubt on the part of the person holding the belief, rather to reflect that confidence maybe misplaced.
 
Last night I dreamed about being on a nature ramble with Brad Pitt and telling him all sorts of good stuff; the night before I dreamed about loading a removals vans with Johnny Marr.

Are these messages that I'm about to meet someone famous?
Last night I had a dream about time travel with the Wellsian time traveller.
 
FINAL UPDATE:

Alas, it with heavy heart and light wallet I must announce a perfect Mega Millions lottery ticket. Perfect in the manner that for all five rows of possible winning combinations I had on that ticket...it did not contain a single number that was picked. Basically, I was oh for thirty. So much for benevolent dream-talking spirits...at least for me...
Obviously you're a nega-psychic.

Third night in a row a famous person has been in one of my dreams: bugger me, but I was in a queue in Sainsburys with Nigel Farage...

I mean, I wouldn't at all object to meeting Pitt or Marr, but Farage? Just no.

ETA I must add that famous folk do not usually make it into any of my dream worlds: this is unusual.
Am I allowed to ask how you attempted to kill him?
 
Since atoms existed before they were discovered, the existence of spirits may be a reality not yet measurable by traditional methods.
I spent years in a spiritualist church, and after the first two years I came to the conclusion that at least some of the mediums were genuine, and the most likely explanation for what they did was they were doing what they said, and getting messages from the spirits of the departed.
My grandmother believed in the spirit world and I laughed at her. I asked her what she would do in the afterlife, and she said " I will watch over you darling". But she was as good as her word because over several years I had many messages from her in different churches through different mediums. One message I had in a church I had never been to before and from a medium I had never seen before began with the words from the medium. "I have your grandmother here, and she says she has been through to you many times before"
If the skeptics on this forum went to a spiritualist church for as many years as I have they might too be given cause for realizing some mediums are for real.
 
I like woo people because one of them can say "A spirit cured my tummy ache" and another can go "My grandma had conversations with dead people" and then both of them will say "We are definitely describing the same underlying phenomenon."
 
If the skeptics on this forum went to a spiritualist church for as many years as I have they might too be given cause for realizing some mediums are for real.
Sceptics know how easy it is to be fooled, and to inadvertently fool yourself. Many of us were believers in some kind of paranormal phenomena, until we acquired critical thinking skills and learned the standard of evidence required to avoid believing things that aren't true. So no, a few subjective experiences that we didn't have the necessary information to fully account for would not convince us.
 
If the skeptics on this forum went to a spiritualist church for as many years as I have they might too be given cause for realizing some mediums are for real.
Steeping oneself credulously in something does not make one a better observer of it. Worse, in fact. The fact that some or many of the self-proclaimed mediums are obvious, proven frauds, and the existence of known means for producing the illusion of mediumship, mean that is a reasonable default conclusion that must be overcome with evidence.
 
...If the skeptics on this forum went to a spiritualist church for as many years as I have they might too be given cause for realizing some mediums are for real.
Wouldn't, say, one of these spiritualist church hommies have stood up and proven to science that their beliefs are true, sometime since, oh, humankind existed? For the betterment of us all?
 
I spent years in a spiritualist church, and after the first two years I came to the conclusion that at least some of the mediums were genuine, and the most likely explanation for what they did was they were doing what they said, and getting messages from the spirits of the departed.
My grandmother believed in the spirit world and I laughed at her. I asked her what she would do in the afterlife, and she said " I will watch over you darling". But she was as good as her word because over several years I had many messages from her in different churches through different mediums. One message I had in a church I had never been to before and from a medium I had never seen before began with the words from the medium. "I have your grandmother here, and she says she has been through to you many times before"

Two questions:
1. Did the medium say that they had someone's grandmother there, and you said "Oh! That must be me!", or did the medium single you out from the crowd and give that message directly to you, without any preamble?
2. How did you rule out the possibility that the mediums co-operate with each other, and share information about the people who attend their meetings?
If the skeptics on this forum went to a spiritualist church for as many years as I have they might too be given cause for realizing some mediums are for real.

Skeptics have been attending spiritualist church meetings since the days of Houdini. Their ability to see the kinds of tricks used in these situations meant that they were not converted. Try it the other way for yourself: go to another medium, having researched the techniques of hot and cold reading, and the other subterfuges used by mediums, and approach it with a sceptical eye. Only when you're ruled out fraud (from the mediums) and credulity (from the audience) can you begin to accept these claimed messages from the afterlife as genuine.
 
Two questions:
1. Did the medium say that they had someone's grandmother there, and you said "Oh! That must be me!", or did the medium single you out from the crowd and give that message directly to you, without any preamble?
2. How did you rule out the possibility that the mediums co-operate with each other, and share information about the people who attend their meetings?


Skeptics have been attending spiritualist church meetings since the days of Houdini. Their ability to see the kinds of tricks used in these situations meant that they were not converted. Try it the other way for yourself: go to another medium, having researched the techniques of hot and cold reading, and the other subterfuges used by mediums, and approach it with a sceptical eye. Only when you're ruled out fraud (from the mediums) and credulity (from the audience) can you begin to accept these claimed messages from the afterlife as genuine.
Another question I would add is when exactly this happened. I believe Scorpion is now in his 70's; if this happened anytime within, say, the last thirty years or so, it wouldn't take any familiarity with Scorpion personally to guess that someone in their 40's or older probably had a dead grandmother, and then to tell him something that wasn't informative at all and also required no personal knowledge of Scorpion ("she says she's been through to you many times" doesn't even really require his belief). And if they guessed wrong, then it's "oh, sorry, it was someone else's grandmother, sometimes they get confused" or maybe "sorry, not your grandmother, your great grandmother." There's always an out to make a miss into a hit.
 
Two questions:
1. Did the medium say that they had someone's grandmother there, and you said "Oh! That must be me!", or did the medium single you out from the crowd and give that message directly to you, without any preamble?
2. How did you rule out the possibility that the mediums co-operate with each other, and share information about the people who attend their meetings?


Skeptics have been attending spiritualist church meetings since the days of Houdini. Their ability to see the kinds of tricks used in these situations meant that they were not converted. Try it the other way for yourself: go to another medium, having researched the techniques of hot and cold reading, and the other subterfuges used by mediums, and approach it with a sceptical eye. Only when you're ruled out fraud (from the mediums) and credulity (from the audience) can you begin to accept these claimed messages from the afterlife as genuine.
The medium came directly to me with a personal message, and opened it by saying she had my grandmother, who had been through to me many times before.
I already said I got the message in a church I had never been to before from a medium I had never seen before.
I cannot remember the rest of the message as it was a long time ago, but I clearly recall the medium telling me my grandmother had been through to me many times.
 
Another question I would add is when exactly this happened. I believe Scorpion is now in his 70's; if this happened anytime within, say, the last thirty years or so, it wouldn't take any familiarity with Scorpion personally to guess that someone in their 40's or older probably had a dead grandmother, and then to tell him something that wasn't informative at all and also required no personal knowledge of Scorpion ("she says she's been through to you many times" doesn't even really require his belief). And if they guessed wrong, then it's "oh, sorry, it was someone else's grandmother, sometimes they get confused" or maybe "sorry, not your grandmother, your great grandmother." There's always an out to make a miss into a hit.
I had this particular message in a church in north London in the 1970s. But I had many messages from my grandmother in other churches where she gave me comforting advice. I also had a message from my grandfather who said he died in a hospital in a cot with the sides up and he did not like it. This was true and the medium said my grandfather was telling me this to give me evidence that he had survived death.
 
The medium came directly to me with a personal message, and opened it by saying she had my grandmother, who had been through to me many times before.
I already said I got the message in a church I had never been to before from a medium I had never seen before.
I cannot remember the rest of the message as it was a long time ago, but I clearly recall the medium telling me my grandmother had been through to me many times.
Then how is it a "personal message?" I can literally say that to anyone who has a dead grandmother.

I had this particular message in a church in north London in the 1970s. But I had many messages from my grandmother in other churches where she gave me comforting advice.
I can also give you comforting advice in the name of your dead grandmother.

I also had a message from my grandfather who said he died in a hospital in a cot with the sides up and he did not like it. This was true and the medium said my grandfather was telling me this to give me evidence that he had survived death.
Seems like a pretty on-the-nose claim for someone to make who wants to convince you they're a medium.

@Calderaro, do you see why these kinds of anecdotes cannot be considered evidence for the existence of spirits?
 
The medium came directly to me with a personal message, and opened it by saying she had my grandmother, who had been through to me many times before.
I already said I got the message in a church I had never been to before from a medium I had never seen before.
I cannot remember the rest of the message as it was a long time ago, but I clearly recall the medium telling me my grandmother had been through to me many times.
Did they use your grandmother's name, or just say 'your grandmother'?
 
Did they use your grandmother's name, or just say 'your grandmother'?
This has all been gone over in other threads. More than once. Suffice to say there are ways in which the information which so impressed Scorpion could have been obtained, but he refuses to consider them. My overall impression was of a well meaning but morally dubious attempt to give some peace to a troubled young man.
 
This has all been gone over in other threads. More than once. Suffice to say there are ways in which the information which so impressed Scorpion could have been obtained, but he refuses to consider them. My overall impression was of a well meaning but morally dubious attempt to give some peace to a troubled young man.
The medium just said it was my grandmother without her name. But I had a number of messages from her from different mediums over the years I attended spiritualist churches. She knew what was going on in my life and gave me good advice. In the case of a message from my brother that died as a baby the medium did give me his name which was Lawrence. My mother, who had never told me about him and had never been to the church, confirmed this when I asked her.
 
The medium just said it was my grandmother without her name. But I had a number of messages from her from different mediums over the years I attended spiritualist churches. She knew what was going on in my life and gave me good advice. In the case of a message from my brother that died as a baby the medium did give me his name which was Lawrence. My mother, who had never told me about him and had never been to the church, confirmed this when I asked her.
Accounts of personal experiences, such as the psychographies attributed to mediums like Chico Xavier, can serve as evidence for those who believe in mediumship. Although these accounts may not be enough to convince radical skeptics, they are valid within the context of human experience.
 
The medium just said it was my grandmother without her name. But I had a number of messages from her from different mediums over the years I attended spiritualist churches. She knew what was going on in my life and gave me good advice. In the case of a message from my brother that died as a baby the medium did give me his name which was Lawrence. My mother, who had never told me about him and had never been to the church, confirmed this when I asked her.
Ask skeptics whether they apply the same rigorous standards to all areas of knowledge, or whether there is a tendency to dismiss only evidence that challenges their beliefs. This can help expose potential biases in their approach
 
The medium just said it was my grandmother without her name. But I had a number of messages from her from different mediums over the years I attended spiritualist churches. She knew what was going on in my life and gave me good advice. In the case of a message from my brother that died as a baby the medium did give me his name which was Lawrence. My mother, who had never told me about him and had never been to the church, confirmed this when I asked her.

Scorpion, download books in english!​

 

Scorpion, download books in english!​

Thanks
No. Again, head down to the railroad tracks, stand in the middle, and wait for the next train to see how wrong you are about the train being an illusion. Yes, the train and you are both atomic particles, but you left out the three types of atomic bonding that will dictate the results of your contact with the speeding train. And yes, physics is the other major factor, but your body will be disarticulated, and "converted back into energy" long before the atoms of the train.

Philosophy class is fun, but don't skip the science class.
Atoms are largely empty space. It is the nuclear forces which bind them that cause the illusion they are solid things. If the nuclear forces were weaker a train might pass through us without touching us, or we could walk through walls.
 
Many past scientific theories have been proved wrong. In any case I do not recall science proving there is no spirit world or a God.
 
Many past scientific theories have been proved wrong.
Yes, by the accumulation of evidence that showed them to be wrong, and not until then.

In any case I do not recall science proving there is no spirit world or a God.
You know better than to expect to reverse the burden of proof without being laughed at. If you claim God and spirits exist, you must prove it.

In science, we often hypothesize the existence of something because we observe something that isn't presently explained by what we already know. But we don't stop at the hypothesis and just take it to be true. We find a way to test the hypothesis to see whether the thing we suspect might exist actually does. If that test fails, we throw out the hypothesis and try something else.

As noted, this is what we did with the neutrino. We didn't just up and decide today that we wanted a new particle because it would be neat. The observation of beta decay wasn't fully explained by the existing model. The neutrino hypothesis followed from what would need to be true in order to extend the model to account for it. Then we tested for the actual existence of a particle that fit the criteria, and found evidence that indeed such a particle existed—not because we wanted it to, but because it was actually there.

We're in the middle of a similar process with dark matter and energy. We hypothesize that such things might exist because they would explain certain observations that aren't predicted by our current model. That doesn't mean we just up and declare that dark matter exists. We need to figure out how to test whether it does. And if we come up with a test, and it fails, then we have to throw out the dark matter hypothesis and come up with a different explanation. This takes time.

In contrast, you're not trying to explain anything with gods our spirits that our current models don't already cover. We already know how certain psychological and phenomenological factors generate belief in the supernatural without there actually needing to be a supernatural element. Your elaborate system of gods, demigods, angels, spirits, and karma exist solely to serve themselves—not to explain anything that needs explaining.

Beyond that, you simply have no evidence that any of what you propose actually exists, and little interest in providing any. Instead you whine about the closed-mindedness of your critics, the oppression of secular science, and your perception that you can't prevail in an intellectual debate only because your critics are more sophistical and devious than you.

You're trying to submit your beliefs for scientific inquiry. The possibility that such an inquiry might not tell you what you want to hear is exactly how science is supposed to work. That's why science consistently succeeds in the long term while religion stands still and cries in its tea.
 
We know that's what you think Scorpion, but that's because you are according to yourself, a sufferer of a mental illness that is categorised by delusions, and the steadfast belief that those delusions are true.
 
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Something worth considering: do you know who proved scientific theories wrong? Scientists! And in every single case ever it's lead to a more actuate scientific theory not God/gods/spirits/pixies did it.
 
We know that's what you think Scorpion, but that's because you are according to yourself, a sufferer of a mental illness that is categorised by delusions, and the steadfast belief that those delusions are true.
I am too long in the tooth to take any notice of people who think I am crazy including every psychiatrist I have ever seen who, like you thought my beliefs were delusions. I know what I have experienced, and I am certain my conclusions are correct.
 
I have been through the same process as you and realized that I am not as intellectual or as well educated as many of the people here. However my conclusion was they have all outsmarted themselves, and they do not know the real truths. So do not let their skepticism get you down.
We're so smart we end up stupid. Nice.

If something is real, then there will be evidence of it. Period. If it is real, it leaves traces that we can, in principle, discover and evaluate. Spirits and psychic phenomena have had lots of opportunities for such evidence to be discovered, but every time it has come up short. Every. Time.

Occam's Razor says that the reason there is no evidence for spirits is that they don't exist, not that they exist but for some unknown reason do not leave evidence. Do not multiply entities unnecessarily. Spirits explain nothing. They achieve nothing. The world without spirits is identical in all practical ways to the world with spirits that don't leave evidence.
 
I am too long in the tooth to take any notice of people who think I am crazy including every psychiatrist I have ever seen who, like you thought my beliefs were delusions. I know what I have experienced, and I am certain my conclusions are correct.
Mark did not say that you are "crazy". He said that you have a mental illness. Stop participating in the stigmatisation of your illness.
 
Something worth considering: do you know who proved scientific theories wrong? Scientists! And in every single case ever it's lead to a more actuate scientific theory not God/gods/spirits/pixies did it.
I see you are still quoting my signature where I said I am the thinker not my brain. I have fought that war against chemical chaos in my brain and won it. Chemicals do not have the last word in my brain I do. As far as I am concerned that is because thought is caused by the immortal spirit that is only using the brain.
 
I am too long in the tooth to take any notice of people who think I am crazy including every psychiatrist I have ever seen who, like you thought my beliefs were delusions.
Nevertheless the mental illness you tell us you suffer or suffered from remains the best explanation for the observations you report.

I know what I have experienced, and I am certain my conclusions are correct.
But that certainty is not based on anything that works for anyone else. Therefore you can't claim it as some universal truth of which only you are miraculously aware. No one is challenging your experiences. But your explanations and interpretations of them are indeed testable and have come up short.
 
I am too long in the tooth to take any notice of people who think I am crazy including every psychiatrist I have ever seen who, like you thought my beliefs were delusions. I know what I have experienced, and I am certain my conclusions are correct.
I used to say, "I know what I saw." I said it a lot. Now that I'm older and better educated, and have done the serious ghost-hunting stuff I no longer "know what I saw". The things I've seen and experienced keep me interested in the subject, but now I accept real-world answers instead of hiding behind new age dogma.
 
The universe is an incredibly finely tuned system and the likely hood of all the forces and parameter's that have to be correct in order for it to exist are very highly against it. This has led scientists to devise the theory of multiverses, that is many failed universes may exist in order for there to be one that works. So why can I not propose the theory that there is only this universe, and God set it into motion as a perfect system to produce and evolve intelligent life. So there is a guiding force behind it all that we are not supposed to be able to penetrate by scientific methods. Because the purpose of it all is that we are here to learn by experience, and have free will to act as we choose without the restraint of an obvious God.
Who is to say the theory of reincarnation and karma is not valid?
 
The universe is an incredibly finely tuned system and the likely hood of all the forces and parameter's that have to be correct in order for it to exist are very highly against it.
Irrelevant. The universe exists and has the properties we observe. Therefore arguments about how unlikely it is are immediately moot.

So why can I not propose the theory that there is only this universe, and God set it into motion as a perfect system to produce and evolve intelligent life.
There is no evidence that multiple universes actually exist or existed. It's just a fanciful speculation. We don't need a God to explain what we see now and no evidence that there is one anyway. Therefore Occam's Razor trims it from consideration.

So there is a guiding force behind it all...
You've shown no evidence of any guiding force, and your attempts to do so amount to amateur fiction with lots of plot holes.

...that we are not supposed to be able to penetrate by scientific methods.
Special pleading. You don't like science, so you just write that plot point into your story.

Because the purpose of it all is that we are here to learn by experience, and have free will to act as we choose without the restraint of an obvious God.
If the experience isn't observably different from the one where there's no God, then there's no reason to suppose there is one. The universe observably doesn't need one. There's no evidence that there is one. Therefore no reason to believe in one except that you consider yourself superior because you do.

Who is to say the theory of reincarnation and karma is not valid?
Who's to say Lord of the Rings isn't a true story?

If you want to believe in reincarnation and karma, go ahead. If you want to convince other people that it's factually true, you have to provide evidence and cogent argument. You've failed for years to do both, and instead you just complain about how badly you're being treated. No one compels you present your arguments to skeptics while you know you don't have what it takes to convince them. You just want something to complain about to pretend you're being persecuted and therefore somehow validated.
 
The universe is an incredibly finely tuned system and the likely hood of all the forces and parameter's that have to be correct in order for it to exist are very highly against it. This has led scientists to devise the theory of multiverses, that is many failed universes may exist in order for there to be one that works. So why can I not propose the theory that there is only this universe, and God set it into motion as a perfect system to produce and evolve intelligent life. So there is a guiding force behind it all that we are not supposed to be able to penetrate by scientific methods. Because the purpose of it all is that we are here to learn by experience, and have free will to act as we choose without the restraint of an obvious God.
Because scientist propose multiverse theories for good and valid reasons, and back them up with higher mathematics and physics, unlike your idea which is too vague and wishy-washy to even call a "theory".
Who is to say the theory of reincarnation and karma is not valid?
I am. Based on the clear lack of evidence that should be there for all to see, should those ideas be true.
 
Like I say, I fought that war for possession of my thoughts against chemical imbalance of my brain, and I won it.
According to you. Schizophrenics are notoriously unable to self-diagnose. It's one of the hardest things about treating the illness. Whatever you feel, schizophrenia is a far better explanation for your reported observations than all the cosmic mumbo jumbo you periodically foist on us.
 
There is no evidence that multiple universes actually exist or existed. It's just a fanciful speculation.
Sorry, but multiverse cosmology is more than just "fanciful speculation". They are real theories, proposed to explain real scientific phenomena, and are backed up by real science.

Also, Scorpion's description of multiverse theories are almost misleading in their simplicity. There is a lot of complex physics behind them.
 

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