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Psychics and Missing People

A blanket thank you all once again.

I did not know what the Language Nomination was all about, but I read up on it and hope to win the Jaguar, if given a choice. :D Funny thing..there is a tiny grammatical error on that post that I will fix, and I hope that will not nullify my entry!

Elaine: I haven't heard from your friend yet, but I will set her straight about SB.

RE: Phil Jordan I've heard the name, but don't much about his gig. Notice the desperation of the parents in the article. There was no activity on the case, so they felt they had to take this action. This is a very common scenario. Media attention and police attention wane, and families are left feeling helpless and alone. Many times, they are encouraged by others to seek out these persons, not realizing just how empty they will feel afterwards. They "bottom out", so to speak emotionally, when nothing comes of the "lead".

Could everyone please glance back at my posts pre-drama and see what you think about my ideas?
 
KellyJ said:
A blanket thank you all once again.

I did not know what the Language Nomination was all about, but I read up on it and hope to win the Jaguar, if given a choice. :D Funny thing..there is a tiny grammatical error on that post that I will fix, and I hope that will not nullify my entry!

Elaine: I haven't heard from your friend yet, but I will set her straight about SB.

RE: Phil Jordan I've heard the name, but don't much about his gig. Notice the desperation of the parents in the article. There was no activity on the case, so they felt they had to take this action. This is a very common scenario. Media attention and police attention wane, and families are left feeling helpless and alone. Many times, they are encouraged by others to seek out these persons, not realizing just how empty they will feel afterwards. They "bottom out", so to speak emotionally, when nothing comes of the "lead".

Could everyone please glance back at my posts pre-drama and see what you think about my ideas?
Click to expand...

These would be posts #71 & 72.

Perhaps I did not have a grammatical error after all. The post stands. :)
 
A little late, but... Welcome KellyJ!

I must say, you are a class act. Coming here to speak your mind/heart on a subject so painful is inspiring (and your diplomatic handling of WTF - well said!). I'm glad someone like you is able to take a stand against the psychic scum that feeds off the grief of others. If the "skeptic community" takes a stand, we might simply come off as closed-minded wet-blankets out to prove our own superiority. You are an example - to show that these psychics are not only ineffective, but also harmful.

Though a skeptic, I don't come down hard on much of the "woo" out there - with the exception of psychic detectives and the likes of John Edward and Silvia Browne. (Must... contain... bile.....)

Keep up the good work! And I hope we see more of you.
 
Welcome, KellyJ, and let me express my deepest sympathy to you and your family. We're all pulling for a good outcome to your dreadful situation.
As a father of two young children, I couldn't imagine what I would do if I was faced with the same situation. I could only hope that I would have the strength and courage you are showing.

You should be commended for your efforts in trying to put an end to the pain caused by these vile, despicable vultures. I have nothing but contempt for those people.

Thank you for sharing your story here, and if there's any way we can help, please continue to keep us informed. I see that others have come forward with help, and I'm proud to be a part of this community. I missed this year's TAM, but I look forward to seeing a presentation by you at next year's, if it's at all possible.
 
KellyJ said:
Elaine: I haven't heard from your friend yet, but I will set her straight about SB.
Click to expand...

I doubt you will hear from my friend. She's pretty unbending on this issue. I try not to be too critical. I've been quite a woo believer, in the not too distant past. I only hope I was never that bad.

As far as your ideas, I can't speak for Randi or anyone else, but I think they're great. But to give those who claim special gifts the opportunity to prove their claims, is the reason the challenge was created to begin with.
 
I've recently read John Walsh's book about the murder of his son. I'm not at home right now, and I can't remember the title, but I do recall he was pretty harsh toward the psychics who tried scamming on him. I'll track down the passage when I get home. It would be saddening if he's somehow changed his opinion on this.
 
KellyJ said:
Now I ask that the thread be returned to its purpose, which is for members here to help me help the families of the missing understand the issues regarding psychics.
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Kelly, I would like to apologise for de-railing earlier, and for my little emotional outburst.

What you are doing is amazing, and I am sorry about the source of all the good work. I hope that some day you get closure of some kind. I think the ideas you have put forward are all excellent, and I wish I could offer some practical help.

I'm not a debunker, or a psychiatrist, nor do I have any links I can offer to assist you. I am a budding writer however (unpublished), so perhaps I could write up something for you, if you would like. Perhaps I could look into the woman I mentioned earlier who won the tv show here in the UK. Her site claims that she has given help to various police forces in solving cases and tracing people, and shows letters from police forces about her input.

A good article writer, in my opinion, is Tony Youens. You can see examples of his articles examining psychic performances at his site: http://www.tonyyouens.com/ and he is a regular poster here too. In my opinion he would be a good guest writer for you.
 
Just read this.

Damn.

Kelly, if there's a way, can you get me some photos of your son and those you're looking for? If I can, while I'm out on the road, I'll see if anyone will post those pictures. Truck stops sometimes accept them, and I'll see if Cal Trans will allow them at rest areas. Ditto NDOT and other orgs. Maybe other drivers will take a few.

It's not much, but if it helps, well, I'm willing.
 
KellyJ,

I can't imagine what it must be like to go through what you have. But, like everyone else, I am hugely appreciative of what you're doing. Whether it's intentional or not, it's hard to watch psychics take advantage of people when they are most desperate.

In terms of notable skeptics on the topic, Benjamin Radford from the Skeptical Inquirer just did an interview on the Point of Inquiry podcast on Psychics Detectives. It was a good interview, and he might be a good person talk to. Hope this helps.
 
Kelly,

I don’t often get moved by many things but your plight and the dignity and eloquence you show in handling it are truly inspiring.

I offer up my sincerest hope that your son is found and your situation resolved.

WanderinWTF,

People here have been FAR too kind.

Your pathetically worded and ridiculous ramble shows what a complete semi-literate moron you are.

You probably do think you have some sort of “power”.. you sound too stupid to realise dreaming and coincidences are just NORMAL.

I would have let your inanity slide except you DARED to have a go at Kelly for casting some perceived slight on you. Kelly should have hit you with both barrels instead she treated you with FAR more respect than you deserved.

I have NEVER called for the banning of someone, anywhere, anytime, any forum, any topic… but you are a complete waste of space and should be removed …

Others

My faith in this site (and most of its members) has been renewed yet again.. except for that idiot Wanderin.. the responses have been fantastic.
 
KellyJ,

I just want to repeat what so many here have said. Welcome, and thank you for doing what you are doing. It is a valuable service. My heart aches for the agony you must go through daily. I am full of admiration for your strength, tact and wisdom. If there is anything that I can do to help your cause, I will try to do it.

I hope to attend TAM next year, too. If you can come, I promise I'll bring you chocolate :)

WanderinWTF
Hasn't your own performance here just proven that you have no gift, and you have no idea what "help" even means? If you really want to be helpful to the world, why don't you seek out a therapist to help you figure out why you are so pathetically insecure as to seek out a person in great emotional pain and distress and try to make her pay attention to you by doing the exact thing that she has requested people NOT do? And when she told you to go away, you attack her as "not caring"??????

You are an idiot. Go away.

Meg
 
KellyJ said:
Whether or not a person wants money or does not want money has no bearing on the damage done to the psyche by individuals claiming to have knowledge of a missing person's whereabouts who do not.

.....

I don't know if you have children or not, and even if you don't, why don’t you imagine the person you love most in the world? Imagine that he/she is gone, and you have no idea what has happened to them. Dozens, and perhaps even hundreds of people come forward, offering their "help". They tell you all sorts of things, none of them the same as the others, and none of them ever results in finding the missing loved one. Regardless, you MUST listen to all of it, over and over again, lest you be accused of not wanting to find the missing loved one. You must listen to them tell you the most horrid things you can imagine being done to a person by another. You must listen to them telling you that your missing loved one was stabbed, beaten, and then their head was bashed in. You must listen as they tell you that your missing loved one was still alive, wimpering and asking for help as he/she drew their last breath, and no one was listening. He/she was all alone, and then the end came.

All of these people who come to you offering help want you to go through something like that. How did you feel reading that? How many times would you want to hear stories like that? What do you think that does to a person? Do you think it's healthy? How is it that it is called "helping"? Nothing has ever come of it except for pain. Is pain helpful? Does pain find the missing person?
Click to expand...


KellyJ,

Thank you for expressing so eloquently the reasons it is so necessary to fight the false pretenses of psychics, charlatans, and other emotional vampires.

Sorry there's not much more I can do for you than express my deepest sympathy.


Florence
 
KellyJ

Let me also thank you for you good work. Being the father of two girls I can only imagine what you have been thru and I am inspired by your williness to help others and fight against those who prey on them.

Steve
 
WanderinWTF said:
ya well imagine that something happend[snip]
Click to expand...
Lemme guess...as a hobby, you pour salt into people's wounds.


KellyJ--a question, where you would have a better answer than most: Suppose we read in our local paper of a child who has gone missing. Would it be a reasonable or unreasonable idea to contact (perhaps a flyer by mail would be a fairly non-intrusive way?) them with information about the worthlessness of these predatory scum "psychics"? Perhaps with information about websites like yours, or some of the information from your (or another appropriate) site?

I feel like I would want to contact them and say "send all such psychic volunteers to me, and I'll deal with them for you, so that you are not subjected to this torture", but I also realize that is somewhat insulting to them. And of course, doing nothing leaves this helpless feeling...

Just an idea...
 
Garrette said:
I personally have not been able to make the meetings due to scheduling issues, but every year there is an "Scholarship Fund" to help out worthy people who would attend but cannot because of finances. This year it paid the expenses of quite a few.
Click to expand...

42, if I recall correctly.
 
Statement on Psychics by Dr. Susan Blackmore

Those connected to the skeptical cause know that Dr. Susan Blackmore of the UK is an internationally-known scientist and proponent of rational thinking. No one--no one--has investigated claims of the paranormal for as long or as thoroughly as Susan Blackmore. She began her career with the aim of proving psi exists, and ended it after three decades of finding no evidence.

I'm pleased she responded to my email requesting her take on the issue of psychic detectives.

A brief bio of Dr. Blackmore, followed by her statement to us:

Sue Blackmore is a freelance writer, lecturer and broadcaster, and a Visiting Lecturer at the University of the West of England, Bristol. She has a degree in psychology and physiology from Oxford University (1973) and a PhD in parapsychology from the University of Surrey (1980). Her research interests include memes, evolutionary theory, consciousness, and meditation. Sue Blackmore no longer works on the paranormal.

She writes for several magazines and newspapers, and is a frequent contributor and presenter on radio and television. She is author of over sixty academic articles, about forty book contributions, and many book reviews. Her books include Beyond the Body (1982), Dying to Live (on near-death experiences, 1993), In Search of the Light (autobiography, 1996), and Test Your Psychic Powers (with Adam Hart-Davis, 1997).
The Meme Machine (1999) has been translated into 13 other languages. Her textbook Consciousness: An Introduction was published in June 2003 (Hodder UK, OUP New York), and A Very Short Introduction to Consciousness in 2005 (OUP). Her latest book is Conversations on Consciousness (November 2005 OUP Oxford) published in January 2006.

Back in 2000, in cleaning out her files and declaring that she had given up investigating the paranormal she said, "I found no psychic phenomena - only wishful thinking, self-deception, experimental error and, occasionally, fraud. I became a sceptic."


When I shared KellyJ's personal story and Project Jason with Dr. Blackmore, she went to the website and blog and read it thoroughly. Her sympathy with Kelly's situation was palpable, even over email. In offering us the following statement, however, she wanted to make sure we understood that she in no way endorses religion.


"I investigated psychics and psychic claims for 30 years. In all that time I never encountered convincing evidence of any psychic powers. I met many friendly and pleasant psychics who made false claims while apparently genuinely believing in their powers; they were self-deluded as well as misleading others. I also met a few out-and-out frauds whose harm cannot easily be exaggerated. They prey on the bereaved, the fearful and the vulnerable to extract large sums of money under false pretences. The tricks they use need to be exposed and people helped to avoid being sucked into their clutches." ---Dr. Susan Blackmore.
 
I've had it.

*starts working on a documentary synopsis on exactly HOW many cases are solved with the help of Psychics in order to hopefully get one of the national television stations interested.*
 
KellyJ said:
I am going to ask you one more time to start your own thread. This thread is not about you or your claimed abilities.

Kelly
Click to expand...
Thanks Kelly, for getting us back on topic.

I've been trying to think of new ideas that might help, but haven't found anything yet. But I won’t stop. I'll check out your site, and can at least make a modest contribution. (I am presently under funded myself.)

My heart goes out to you, your family, and to anyone else in similar circumstances.

Last summer I read a book dealing with missing children. I had to stop one third through, as I would become too emotional, even while reading fiction.

I hope that this thread has helped you, despite a few tangents that are almost inevitable in such a forum. There are good people here. People willing to actually help. Even if it’s only to have a place where you can explore your options, and spread awareness of the plight of others with missing relatives.

Kevin
 
I have asked moderators if they could remove the posts made today from Wanderin and related to Wanderin. I also asked if they could place them on a new thread just for Wanderin. I don't know if that's possible, but as one person said, this thread had alot of good information pre-clutter.

If you would please, do not respond to him. I am now trying to find the serious posts so that I may respond to those.

Thank you!

Kelly
 
J. Arthur Hastur said:
Cora Baron, at it again.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0206/2301_grinstead_family_tries_to_find_her.html

Now preying upon Tara Grinstead's family.
Click to expand...

I believe they mean Carla Baron.

This all becomes a vicious circle. No leads in the case=desperation on the part of the family. No leads also equals no media coverage which increases the desperation and leads to contacting these people.

Someone on this forum contacts the authors of these media articles when they are posted online. They attempt to set them straight about psychics and the lack of evidence they do anything other than harming the families.

I think this is an excellent idea.

Here's a news article about this case:
http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4538336&nav=5kZQ
 
coalesce said:
KellyJ, my heart goes out to you and your family. Have you thought of setting up an PayPal account for your site so people can make donations through that?

Michael
Click to expand...

Hi Michael,

There is a long and very detailed answer as to why we do not have a Paypal account set up. I know if we did, we would get more donations.

To try to summarize: Each state has laws governing charitable organizations and the solicitation/acceptance of donations. There is a debate about whether an Internet presence, such as an org's website, constitutes a solicitation simply because of its existence.

At this time, the governing entity of these states as it pertains to donations, has not made a ruling that a website is not a soliciation. Therefore, an org should comply to the rules of that state.

Some states have lengthy applications and fees that must be paid in order to accept donations. The fees add up to about 1k, so we did not pursue that since we do not receive many donations. For example, In Utah, the fee is $100, but if no one from Utah ever donates, that is not a wise way to spend the public's money when we don't have much to begin with.

Most orgs do not study this and will just put up a Paypal link.
 
cabby said:
Kelly, I would like to apologise for de-railing earlier, and for my little emotional outburst.

What you are doing is amazing, and I am sorry about the source of all the good work. I hope that some day you get closure of some kind. I think the ideas you have put forward are all excellent, and I wish I could offer some practical help.

I'm not a debunker, or a psychiatrist, nor do I have any links I can offer to assist you. I am a budding writer however (unpublished), so perhaps I could write up something for you, if you would like. Perhaps I could look into the woman I mentioned earlier who won the tv show here in the UK. Her site claims that she has given help to various police forces in solving cases and tracing people, and shows letters from police forces about her input.

A good article writer, in my opinion, is Tony Youens. You can see examples of his articles examining psychic performances at his site: http://www.tonyyouens.com/ and he is a regular poster here too. In my opinion he would be a good guest writer for you.
Click to expand...

Hi Cabby,

No problem. Thanks for your kind words. I took a look at Tony's site and agree that he would be an excellent guest writer. I was going to write to him, but as always, I'm buried under a huge pile of work. If anyone wishes to write to him on my behalf, similar to Mariah's contacting Susan, I would be happy to delegate!

I'd still like to see some action pertaining to my posts #71 & 72, so this would certainly help. If no one can/wants to take this on in respect to writing Tony, I will get to it eventually.

I took the day off to try to get caught up on several things, one of them being the serious post and inquiries here.

Kelly
 
Roadtoad said:
Kelly, if there's a way, can you get me some photos of your son and those you're looking for? If I can, while I'm out on the road, I'll see if anyone will post those pictures. Truck stops sometimes accept them, and I'll see if Cal Trans will allow them at rest areas. Ditto NDOT and other orgs. Maybe other drivers will take a few.

It's not much, but if it helps, well, I'm willing.
Click to expand...

Hi Roadtoad,

We have posters online of numerous missing persons, including my son. We encourage the public to go to these sites and print and place posters wherever they can....absolutely!

Links to our poster campaign programs:
http://www.projectjason.org/18wheel.html
http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html

If this doesn't work for you, PM or email me your snail mail address, and I will mail you whatever number you indicate.

Thank you!

Kelly
 
DSE said:
In terms of notable skeptics on the topic, Benjamin Radford from the Skeptical Inquirer just did an interview on the Point of Inquiry podcast on Psychics Detectives. It was a good interview, and he might be a good person talk to. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Would anyone want to contact Benjamin, or do you have a contact link for him?

Thanks,
Kelly
 
Kelly,

Keep an eye out for when the TAM4 DVD comes out. Ben Radford had an excellent paper on the failure of psychic detectives.
 
Mercutio: "KellyJ--a question, where you would have a better answer than most: Suppose we read in our local paper of a child who has gone missing. Would it be a reasonable or unreasonable idea to contact (perhaps a flyer by mail would be a fairly non-intrusive way?) them with information about the worthlessness of these predatory scum "psychics"? Perhaps with information about websites like yours, or some of the information from your (or another appropriate) site?

I feel like I would want to contact them and say "send all such psychic volunteers to me, and I'll deal with them for you, so that you are not subjected to this torture", but I also realize that is somewhat insulting to them. And of course, doing nothing leaves this helpless feeling...

Just an idea..."
Click to expand...

I think that's a very interesting idea, Mercutio. I, too have been reading this thread and getting an increasing feeling of helplessness and desparation. I'll respect whatever KellyJ's answer is as to whether it might be appropriate to contact these grieving stressed out parents directly.

I'm wondering if somehow we could put together a site specifically as a resource for those of us that wish to help stop these "psychic" predators. Perhaps it could include samples of letters to be sent to newspapers, newstations, etc complaining when they post news about such&such psychics working on a case. Maybe even some kind of blanket warning statement to be aired when someone is reported as missing warning that these predators may come out at times like this seeking only to improve their own status, publicity or wealth, with links to skeptical sites that lay out the facts.

Maybe even a resource kit to be sent to police stations, that they could pass on to victims, should it seem appropriate, that includes contact info for a local skeptic society that would offer to help them fend off these whackos...?

Just throwing out some ideas.

There is a meeting this weekend of our local skeptic society. I think maybe I'll go and see if there's any interest there.

Meg
 
KellyJ said:
I'd still like to see some action pertaining to my posts #71 & 72, so this would certainly help. If no one can/wants to take this on in respect to writing Tony, I will get to it eventually.
Click to expand...

For post #71, you can PM Linda and ask if what you want to do is acceptable to the Foundation. None of us can speak for JREF.

But it looks good to me, and I don't think Linda will have any problem with it.

Linda is aware of this topic, and supportive of your goals. So you won't need to give a long explanation.
 
Mercutio said:
KellyJ--a question, where you would have a better answer than most: Suppose we read in our local paper of a child who has gone missing. Would it be a reasonable or unreasonable idea to contact (perhaps a flyer by mail would be a fairly non-intrusive way?) them with information about the worthlessness of these predatory scum "psychics"? Perhaps with information about websites like yours, or some of the information from your (or another appropriate) site?

I feel like I would want to contact them and say "send all such psychic volunteers to me, and I'll deal with them for you, so that you are not subjected to this torture", but I also realize that is somewhat insulting to them. And of course, doing nothing leaves this helpless feeling...

Just an idea...
Click to expand...

That is a very interesting and worthy idea. Not only does it make the family aware of these vipers early in the game before desperation mode sets in, but it also lets them know about the existence of organizations, such as ours.

It is a fact, and a sad one, that in the majority of cases, LE (law enforcement) do NOT give the family of the missing a referral to a missing person organization. As most people do not know what actions to take when this happens, they will sit back, thinking LE is doing it all. In the cases of runaways and adults, sometimes LE does nothing! Time is a great enemy here, and families should be taking other steps immediately to find their loved one.

Going back to the psychic issue, perhaps we should draft a one page letter that expresses our sorrow at the situation, and then moves into some basic steps to take info, and finally, cautions the family about psychics and provides links to the (future) blog series and our org.

Members, upon seeing news about a missing person could see if the family's contact info is public and send them the letter. If it is not public, they could send it to the media outlet, and ask them to forward it. Doing the latter would educate them as well!

Does that make sense?
 
KellyJ said:
That is a very interesting and worthy idea. Not only does it make the family aware of these vipers early in the game before desperation mode sets in, but it also lets them know about the existence of organizations, such as ours.

It is a fact, and a sad one, that in the majority of cases, LE (law enforcement) do NOT give the family of the missing a referral to a missing person organization. As most people do not know what actions to take when this happens, they will sit back, thinking LE is doing it all. In the cases of runaways and adults, sometimes LE does nothing! Time is a great enemy here, and families should be taking other steps immediately to find their loved one.

Going back to the psychic issue, perhaps we should draft a one page letter that expresses our sorrow at the situation, and then moves into some basic steps to take info, and finally, cautions the family about psychics and provides links to the (future) blog series and our org.

Members, upon seeing news about a missing person could see if the family's contact info is public and send them the letter. If it is not public, they could send it to the media outlet, and ask them to forward it. Doing the latter would educate them as well!

Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

Excellent. Warnings about "the second wave of predators". Terrific ideas here.
 
meg said:
I think that's a very interesting idea, Mercutio. I, too have been reading this thread and getting an increasing feeling of helplessness and desparation. I'll respect whatever KellyJ's answer is as to whether it might be appropriate to contact these grieving stressed out parents directly.

I'm wondering if somehow we could put together a site specifically as a resource for those of us that wish to help stop these "psychic" predators. Perhaps it could include samples of letters to be sent to newspapers, newstations, etc complaining when they post news about such&such psychics working on a case. Maybe even some kind of blanket warning statement to be aired when someone is reported as missing warning that these predators may come out at times like this seeking only to improve their own status, publicity or wealth, with links to skeptical sites that lay out the facts.

Maybe even a resource kit to be sent to police stations, that they could pass on to victims, should it seem appropriate, that includes contact info for a local skeptic society that would offer to help them fend off these whackos...?

Just throwing out some ideas.

There is a meeting this weekend of our local skeptic society. I think maybe I'll go and see if there's any interest there.

Meg
Click to expand...

I love this, Meg!! (and your chocolate, too)

What an excellent idea.

There might be some kind person out there who would donate space on a webserver, another person to buy/donate a domain name, and a 3rd person to act as webmaster. (or any combination therein)

A talented webmaster knows how to get hits when the public looks up "missing persons", thus leading the families to the site.

The resource kit is also a good idea, although I am skeptical that it would go beyond the hands of the recipient in many cases. I say this because I have fought for two years to get our local LE to give us as a resource when doing a case intake, I even then suggested that they give the two main orgs, National Center for Missing Adults (NCMA) and National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, (NCMEC) but they won't even do that. (See my post about this issue a few above this) CYA is what I think is going on there. CYA is more important to them than a life, apparently.

Let's hear from others about this. I think it's awesome.
 
KellyJ said:
I love this, Meg!! (and your chocolate, too)

What an excellent idea.

There might be some kind person out there who would donate space on a webserver, another person to buy/donate a domain name, and a 3rd person to act as webmaster. (or any combination therein)

A talented webmaster knows how to get hits when the public looks up "missing persons", thus leading the families to the site.

The resource kit is also a good idea, although I am skeptical that it would go beyond the hands of the recipient in many cases. I say this because I have fought for two years to get our local LE to give us as a resource when doing a case intake, I even then suggested that they give the two main orgs, National Center for Missing Adults (NCMA) and National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, (NCMEC) but they won't even do that. (See my post about this issue a few above this) CYA is what I think is going on there. CYA is more important to them than a life, apparently.

Let's hear from others about this. I think it's awesome.
Click to expand...



I'm in for the domain and to webmaster it, but I can't develop a website for crap. any talented web developers willing to put something together for me to get up and running? What's the domain nam going to be?
 
Wonderful!

I think the name will be very important. It should somehow have missing persons in it.

Let's brainstorm.
 
no-psychics.org
psychic-proof.org
psychic-help.org
???

oops. just now saw your comment about having missing persons in the name...

I'll go think some more.

Meg
 
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