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Pickens plan

As imports grow and world prices rise, the amount of money we send to foreign nations every year is soaring. At current oil prices, we will send $700 billion dollars out of the country this year alone — that's four times the annual cost of the Iraq war.

Projected over the next 10 years the cost will be $10 trillion — it will be the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind.


That's a lot of dough!



Today's wind turbines stand up to 410 feet tall, with blades that stretch 148 feet in length. The blades collect the wind's kinetic energy. In one year, a 3-megawatt wind turbine produces as much energy as 12,000 barrels of imported oil.

Wind power currently accounts for 48 billion kWh of electricity a year in the United States — enough to serve more than 4.5 million households. That is still only about 1% of current demand, but the potential of wind is much greater.



Is anybody in government saying anything like this, all I here is attacking oil companies and bad OPEC.
 
Picken's plan also sounds like a good piece of the puzzle.

I was listening to a podcast today talking about all these people who bought SUVs a year or two ago and now they are desparate to get rid of them, but nobody wants them unless they sell them for a song. One guy had a $70 K one-year-old Cadillac SUV he wanted to sell, but he was offered only $31 K. If fuel prices stay high I think that the market will find solutions in the coming years.
 
Puppycow said:
Picken's plan also sounds like a good piece of the puzzle.
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I agree, it's not the only answer but a good piece, and he's not afraid to invest in his plan. I can't find it here but in an earlier interview he mentioned a ten billion dollar investment for his wind farm.



Also note he's not talking about using more natural gas just redirecting it.

We currently use natural gas to produce 22% of our electricity. Harnessing the power of wind to generate electricity will give us the flexibility to shift natural gas away from electricity generation and put it to use as a transportation fuel — reducing our dependence on foreign oil by more than one-third.
 
Please, not natural gas. It's already expensive to heat my house without more demand driving up the price.

No mention of nuclear power at that site, and IMHO it wil have to play a much bigger part if we are to become less reliant on petroleum..
 
WildCat said:
Please, not natural gas. It's already expensive to heat my house without more demand driving up the price.

No mention of nuclear power at that site, and IMHO it wil have to play a much bigger part if we are to become less reliant on petroleum..
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He's suggesting building more wind farms to replace the natural gas currently used to supply electrical generation and shifting the gas over to transportation. Please read the plan again. It's not the only answer but a good start.
 
If Pickens could make an efficient, productive, or profitable wind farm, he would be building actual wind farms and not advertising for more taxpayer subsidies.
 
mr rosewater said:
He's suggesting building more wind farms to replace the natural gas currently used to supply electrical generation and shifting the gas over to transportation. Please read the plan again. It's not the only answer but a good start.
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I read it. Sorry, but there isn't a glut of natural gas right now. If you find enough substitutes where it can eb phased out as far as electricity generation goes fine. But it would be far better to use that gas to heat homes (many of which are currently using fuel oil) than to power vehicles. I doubt there's enough of it to power vehicles and heat homes.

Wind power is fine, but it takes an enormous amount of real estate to put up a wind farm. And many people don't want a view of a wind farm, even prominent east coast "do as I say, not as I do" elites.
 
balrog666 said:
If Pickens could make an efficient, productive, or profitable wind farm, he would be building actual wind farms and not advertising for more taxpayer subsidies.
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True that! And what the hell is he talking about when he says "Natural gas is significantly less expensive than gasoline or diesel. In places like Utah and Oklahoma, prices are less than $1 a gallon."? Since when does cng come by the gallon?
 
balrog666 said:
If Pickens could make an efficient, productive, or profitable wind farm, he would be building actual wind farms and not advertising for more taxpayer subsidies.
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How is the PTC taxpayer subsidy? His numbers are an investment (private not taxpayer money) of 70 billion will yeild about 200,000 kw and a production tax credit will help speed up the farms being built. He also adds the farms will be built without the PTC it will take longer.
 
T.Boone Pickens said:
Building wind facilities in the corridor that stretches from the Texas panhandle to North Dakota could produce 20% of the electricity for the United States at a cost of $1 trillion. It would take another $200 billion to build the capacity to transmit that energy to cities and towns.

That's a lot of money, but it's a one-time cost.
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No, it's not a "one-time cost". Those windmills will have to be maintained, repaired, and replaced. The land they sit on will have to be leased.

What is the cost of electricty generated by windmill vs. the natural gas plants they will replace under his plan?

T. Boone Pickens said:
And compared to the $700 billion we spend on foreign oil every year, it's a bargain.
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Huh? Why is he now comparing the cost of imported oil when his plan is to replace domestically-produced natural gas with his windmills? And if you say "well that's because he will power cars with cng also" I'd like to see the numbers that show we have enough natural gas to heat homes, cook food, heat water, and also to fuel automobiles.
 
mr rosewater said:
How is the PTC taxpayer subsidy? His numbers are an investment (private not taxpayer money) of 70 billion will yeild about 200,000 kw and a production tax credit will help speed up the farms being built. He also adds the farms will be built without the PTC it will take longer.
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The PTC is an advertising or, more specifically, a lobbying campaign and nothing more.

If Pickens thought he could make a buck by building a wind farm, he would shut the hell up and build a wind farm. And so would I. And so would anyone else with any sense.

Conversely, if they are both more expensive and less efficient to build, maintain, and exploit, why should anyone pay for them (except when Uncle Sugar picks up the tab)? Just take a look at how many current wind turbines are sitting unused and/or are permanently mothballed across the USA ...
 
balrog666 said:
If Pickens thought he could make a buck by building a wind farm, he would shut the hell up and build a wind farm. And so would I. And so would anyone else with any sense.
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Exactly! And he uses the oldest trick in the book to get the government to fund his plan, claiming:
T. Boone Pickens said:
In addition to creating new construction and maintenance jobs, thousands of Americans will be employed to manufacture the turbines and blades. These are high skill jobs that pay on a scale comparable to aerospace jobs.
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So is this really an energy plan, or a pork barrel jobs program in which, purely incidentally I'm sure, Pickens would rake in millions?
 
Right, he's what 80 yrs old if I were him I'd want to invest billions so I could make millions. It seems he intends to build with or without a PTC. His concern with the PTC is not just for himself but for other investors to get involved in projects so we don't go bankrupt buying foreign oil.

He seems to think we have reached peak oil in 2005. The U.S.A. Has recently cut back by 500,000 thousand barrels a day which the Chinese have picked up. As we conserve the Chinese thirst grows.

He's attempting to offer a clean solution, from the plan;


According to the California Energy Commission, critical greenhouse gas emissions from natural gas are 23% lower than diesel and 30% lower than gasoline.

Natural gas vehicles (NGV) are already available and combine top performance with low emissions. The natural gas Honda Civic GX is rated as the cleanest production vehicle in the world.

According to NGVAmerica, there are more than 7 million NGVs in use worldwide, but only 150,000 of those are in the United States.

The EPA estimates that vehicles on the road account for 60% of carbon monoxide pollution and around one-third of hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions in the United States. As federal and state emissions laws become more stringent, many requirements will be unattainable with conventionally fueled vehicles.

Since natural gas is significantly cleaner than petroleum, NGVs are increasing in popularity. The Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach recently announced that 16,800 old diesel trucks will be replaced, and half of the new vehicles will run on alternatives such as natural gas.


If drilling will buy us time natural gas will buy us time. It's not the only answer just a part.
 
mr rosewater said:
Right, he's what 80 yrs old if I were him I'd want to invest billions so I could make millions. It seems he intends to build with or without a PTC. His concern with the PTC is not just for himself but for other investors to get involved in projects so we don't go bankrupt buying foreign oil.

He seems to think we have reached peak oil in 2005. The U.S.A. Has recently cut back by 500,000 thousand barrels a day which the Chinese have picked up. As we conserve the Chinese thirst grows.

He's attempting to offer a clean solution, from the plan;


According to the California Energy Commission, critical greenhouse gas emissions from natural gas are 23% lower than diesel and 30% lower than gasoline.

Natural gas vehicles (NGV) are already available and combine top performance with low emissions. The natural gas Honda Civic GX is rated as the cleanest production vehicle in the world.

According to NGVAmerica, there are more than 7 million NGVs in use worldwide, but only 150,000 of those are in the United States.

The EPA estimates that vehicles on the road account for 60% of carbon monoxide pollution and around one-third of hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions in the United States. As federal and state emissions laws become more stringent, many requirements will be unattainable with conventionally fueled vehicles.

Since natural gas is significantly cleaner than petroleum, NGVs are increasing in popularity. The Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach recently announced that 16,800 old diesel trucks will be replaced, and half of the new vehicles will run on alternatives such as natural gas.


If drilling will buy us time natural gas will buy us time. It's not the only answer just a part.
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I'm still waiting for you to show we have enough natural gas to heat homes, heat water, cook, and also to run our cars.

There may well be enough for fleet use, but for the hundred million or so private vehicles?
 
That's the point it's not for all vehicles just some vehicles. Only a part of the solution and only as these new clean sources of energy come on line. Lets drill too, and build nuclear plants, but lets do something now!
 
mr rosewater said:
Oh wow you went on the Internets and found a wikipedia, good for you. So what's your plan since you don't like Pickens. Oh that's right you would build a wind farm yourself if you could get Uncle sugar daddy to front you. Well whats your plan?
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How old are you? Haven't you ever learned to follow the money?

And actually, I have nothing but respect for a conman as accomplished as T. Boone!


Oh, and my "plan" for what exactly? Please be very specific as to exactly what "problem" you want solved other than how to squander taxpayer money.
 
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Oh the how old are you insult I'll just tuck that away and stop reading your post. He's building it as far as I understand PTC or no. What money? He's 80 yrs old do you really think he will see this thing turn a profit. BS no plan thank you.
 
Just watch and see what develops "in the coming weeks" as he "rolls out his plan".

No need to rush to judgement at the moment as to his motives.
 
Beerina said:
Just watch and see what develops "in the coming weeks" as he "rolls out his plan".

No need to rush to judgement at the moment as to his motives.
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Excellent point. I look forward to seeing the details of his grand plan. ;)
 
balrog666 said:
Bye.
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Ya know you really should go fly a kite, it's fun, but before you do why not look at Harry Reid's plan

http://reid.senate.gov/issues/energy.cfm


Supporting Renewable Energy in Nevada and Across America
Nevada has the potential to be the nation’s renewable energy epicenter. Southern Nevada’s clear sunny days make it one of the best locations for solar energy in the world, and northern Nevada holds the largest amount of untapped geothermal resources in the United States. There are tremendous wind resources throughout the state.

That is why I have consistently supported a national renewable electricity standard, as well as fair and stable federal tax incentives for development of clean energy resources, like geothermal, solar, and wind. I have worked hard to add geothermal energy to the list of renewable energy projects eligible for the renewable energy production tax credit and loan guarantees. I also worked to extend the production tax credit through the end of 2008.

I believe that Congress needs to provide a long-term extension of the renewable energy production and investment tax credits to help ensure long-term growth in our burgeoning renewable energy sector. While the Senate was one vote away from extending these important incentives on the 2007 Energy Bill, I will not stop my efforts to deliver the necessary financial resources for renewable energy production to thrive.


Seems he want's to go beyond the PTC but hey he's a democrat.
 
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Now to WildCat, I agree this should not hurt anyone heating their home with NG, and we should be careful it doesn't. I also wonder how he intends to get the companies that produce electricity from NG to stop and shift to automobiles.

Now also this can be used to produce hydrogen, and this can be used for fleet vehicles such as post office, police, telephone, cable, fill in the blank.
 
mr rosewater said:
Now also this can be used to produce hydrogen, and this can be used for fleet vehicles such as post office, police, telephone, cable, fill in the blank.
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It makes no sense at all to use natural gas to produce hydrogen for vehicle use. Far better to use the natural gas in the vehicle.
 
mr rosewater said:
Ya know you really should go fly a kite, it's fun, but before you do why not look at Harry Reid's plan

http://reid.senate.gov/issues/energy.cfm


Supporting Renewable Energy in Nevada and Across America
Nevada has the potential to be the nation’s renewable energy epicenter. Southern Nevada’s clear sunny days make it one of the best locations for solar energy in the world, and northern Nevada holds the largest amount of untapped geothermal resources in the United States. There are tremendous wind resources throughout the state.

That is why I have consistently supported a national renewable electricity standard, as well as fair and stable federal tax incentives for development of clean energy resources, like geothermal, solar, and wind. I have worked hard to add geothermal energy to the list of renewable energy projects eligible for the renewable energy production tax credit and loan guarantees. I also worked to extend the production tax credit through the end of 2008.

I believe that Congress needs to provide a long-term extension of the renewable energy production and investment tax credits to help ensure long-term growth in our burgeoning renewable energy sector. While the Senate was one vote away from extending these important incentives on the 2007 Energy Bill, I will not stop my efforts to deliver the necessary financial resources for renewable energy production to thrive.


Seems he want's to go beyond the PTC but hey he's a democrat.
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Shoveling taxpayer money at failing companies that make inefficient and uneconomic electricity production equipment is nothing new for Congress and it certainly won't solve any problems with the price of energy.

However, I suspect it will inspire many more conmen to start new "clean energy" boondoggles to grab a piece of that enormous pie.
 
mr rosewater said:
Now to WildCat, I agree this should not hurt anyone heating their home with NG, and we should be careful it doesn't. I also wonder how he intends to get the companies that produce electricity from NG to stop and shift to automobiles.

Now also this can be used to produce hydrogen, and this can be used for fleet vehicles such as post office, police, telephone, cable, fill in the blank.
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Basic physics tells us that creating, distributing, and then burning hydrogen (or using it it fuel cells) isn't going to solve anything for anyone.
 
balrog666 said:
Shoveling taxpayer money at failing companies that make inefficient and uneconomic electricity production equipment is nothing new for Congress and it certainly won't solve any problems with the price of energy.

However, I suspect it will inspire many more conmen to start new "clean energy" boondoggles to grab a piece of that enormous pie.
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I think if we build wind offshore it may be a boondoggle as you say, but on land and in the right place it may help. It may not replace NG but may produce hydrogen. This could be used for fleet vehicles.
 
mr rosewater said:
I don't know why your being obtuse but of course I'm talking about wind.
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Sorry, you weren't real clear. At any rate, how many windmills does it take to produce hydrogen to power 1,000 cars? Any idea? IIRC, it takes quite a bit of energy for electrolysis.
 
Wildcat

Wouldn't the correct logical thing to do would be move that 20% lng to heat homes and other stuff since the infracture to support this is already in place, and then use the 20% of freed up oil used for electricity for transportation?

One other fly in the ointment is windmills kill birds. I'm sure PETA will get involved. :D

I'm sure this will get a lot of air play about the safety of windmills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3FZtmlHwcA

I hope Pickens is ready to counter it.
 
Daylight said:
Wildcat

Wouldn't the correct logical thing to do would be move that 20% lng to heat homes and other stuff since the infracture to support this is already in place, and then use the 20% of freed up oil used for electricity for transportation?
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I don't think the infrastructure is in place, or more homes in the Northeast part of the country would already be using it, as we are where I live. Nobody opts for an oil-burning furnace if natural gas is an option.
 
yeah the North East is in trouble.

Oil comes to your home in a little truck.

Still, wind, solar and more nukes...all part of a good energy plan.

NOT killing off polar bears.

Id' like some cheaper better solar power choices. My one friend in Vermont is totally off the grid. She has a generator for the perhaps 20 days a year she needs to supplement her solar power. Problem is she comes from a wealthy family where she was able to afford the solar power she needs and to buy the right kinds of appliances. Her home was built from scartch to be off the gird (it's actually quite huge and beautiful)....

I'd love to slap up some solar panels and reduce my energy needs.

Bought a smaller car.

And why oh why are those complaining about fuel costs still driving those SUVs 20-30 miles over the speed limit. Better gas mileage is simply a little less of a lead foot.
 
kittynh said:
Her home was built from scartch to be off the gird (it's actually quite huge and beautiful)....
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Sounds like something our UK brethren might say, wot?

(Like, "It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide"...)
 
It appears that Texas taxpayers will bail out Pickens' wind farm:
Texas Utility Officials Blow $5 Billion on Pickens Wind


In what experts say is the biggest investment in the clean and renewable energy in U.S. history, utility officials in the Lone Star State gave preliminary approval Thursday to a $4.9 billion plan to build new transmission lines to carry wind-generated electricity from gusty West Texas to urban areas like Dallas.
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Of course, it is not an investment but a subsidy, it does not deal in energy directly but in transmission lines and associated infrastructure unique to wind generated power, it will operate at a loss for the foreseeable future, and it will be paid for by higher power bills in Texas.

The wind energy industry has benefited from the support of billionaire oilman T. Boone Pickens, who is planning to build the world's largest wind farm on about 200,000 acres in the Texas Panhandle.
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Yeah, right, :rolleyes:, I wonder what this cost him and how much it will directly benefit his investors?
 
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