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History Possibly Lost.

Crazy Chainsaw said:
Sorry I ment to say they were running out of whale oil.
Click to expand...

Then you need to provide some evidence to back up that claim.

Do you have anything to say about the rest of my post?


So far as I can tell, all you have is a bunch of mis-remembered folk tales and local myths, none of which stand up to even the most cursory of investigation.


ETA: Oh, and occasional links to factually inaccurate websites that would have looked laughably pre-historic 20 years ago. Sorry, I forgot about them.
 
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junkshop said:
Nothing in that link about a fire in Buckingham Palace, or a demonstration "to Queen Victoria's Friends and Fellow investors inside Buckingham Palace".



From your link:



Also this one amused me:
Click to expand...

Yes the fire did destroy the Coal Mine office, the Coal itself was never shipped only the Oil and Candles made from it. Everyone was looking for a Substitute for the 1.50 cents a gallon Whale Oil, for lighting.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Yes the fire did destroy the Coal Mine office, the Coal itself was never shipped only the Oil and Candles made from it. Everyone was looking for a Substitute for the 1.50 cents a gallon Whale Oil, for lighting.
Click to expand...


Evidence, please, of the 'Coal Mine Office' in Buckingham Palace being destroyed by fire (or even existing, in order to be destroyed by fire).
 
junkshop said:
Evidence, please, of the 'Coal Mine Office' in Buckingham Palace being destroyed by fire (or even existing, in order to be destroyed by fire).
Click to expand...

I asked some of my Friends and they said the fire was referenced in,

"A Social and educational history of Hancock County, Kentucky
Author(s)/Publishing Information
Charles A Clinton
Call Number
HN79.K42 H363 1974"

That was part of the experimental Schools program Launched in Hancock County, the book was funded by the United States Department of education.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
I asked some of my Friends and they said the fire was referenced in,

"A Social and educational history of Hancock County, Kentucky
Author(s)/Publishing Information
Charles A Clinton
Call Number
HN79.K42 H363 1974"

That was part of the experimental Schools program Launched in Hancock County, the book was funded by the United States Department of education.
Click to expand...


NO.

We are not doing that dance again. YOU made the claim, YOU provide the evidence.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
I asked some of my Friends and they said the fire was referenced in,

"A Social and educational history of Hancock County, Kentucky
Author(s)/Publishing Information
Charles A Clinton
Call Number
HN79.K42 H363 1974"

That was part of the experimental Schools program Launched in Hancock County, the book was funded by the United States Department of education.
Click to expand...

Also, I'm calling ******** on this. I don't believe that in the six minutes between my post and your response you "asked some of my Friends and they said the fire was referenced in" this book.

Your citation is clearly copied and pasted from here:

https://nkaa.uky.edu/nkaa/items/show/300002229

...and is handily only viewable in situ, after submitting a request to the Special Collections Research Centre of the University of Kentucky, making it practically impossible to verify.


Please show some evidence to support your claims that;


  • Princess Victoria bankrolled coal mines in Kentucky at the age of 14

  • A nine year old Prince Edward invested in a coal oil plant in Kentucky and/or his mother did

  • There was a 'Coal Mine Office' in Buckingham Palace

  • Said 'Coal Mine Office' was destroyed by fire following a demonstration of coal oil "to Queen Victoria's Friends and Fellow investors inside Buckingham Palace"

  • Britain was running out of whale oil in or around 1850
 
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Weren't we tking about Abraham Lincoln's feces and mentioning Russian hookers? Tone is getting a little heavy, here.
 
Not to detract from the memory. And this would actually make a great story, if investigated properly. ...But end of day, this isn't really history per se, is it? More like trivia, if historical trivia. (I mean, if that box of nails perhaps shed light about some key aspect of history, that would be a different matter. This, even if true, makes no difference to anything, does it. So, just trivia. ...Again, though, cool story even so, particularly if it's investigated properly and written up well.)

That detail from 8enetto about the box of nails, and how valuable nails were back in those days, was very interesting! ...Wonder what things about us, and what we consider valuable, will seem impossibly quaint and ...different, to our sons and grandsons 50 years down? (50, because things are changing faster than before, isn't it, some things anyway.)



eta: So why'd your ancestor hand out that very valuable box of very valuable nails to him? Any story/hypothesis in family tradition about that? I mean, if those things were so valuable that they were like money, and people burned down houses and then rooted around in the ashes to get at them, then you wouldn't hand them out to some nondescript rando passing by, would you? )
 
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I think the idea is Thomas was in need of a place to get on his feet, and he stayed at Pates station as a handyman for a bit.
Maybe long enough to wait out a winter or just earn what he could to get on his feet.
I have been that person in my life. A rando that gets a bit of work to get going. Show them value and they can be thankful.

Chances are there was an old cabin there they could use for a while. Slave quarters were mentioned. Any port in a storm.

Just a guess, but I 've been there.
 
No no, no disrespect intended to someone's straitened circumstances. Just wondering why that ultra-precious gift equivalent to a chest of nearly-doubloons.

As you say, maybe he was being paid in kind for his work. Or maybe Chainsaw's ancestor was just a kind man, ready to help some deserving person in need. ...Where I was coning from is, if the idea is to create a historically correct narrative incorporating ans explaining these specifics, then that is a question that probably needs to be asked, and answered factually basis records and investigations. Should that investigation be actually carried out, I mean.
 
Verification of the entire story does require that letter/map be located and authenticated.

Probable and plausible are much easier to imagine.
 
Chanakya said:
Not to detract from the memory. And this would actually make a great story, if investigated properly. ...But end of day, this isn't really history per se, is it? More like trivia, if historical trivia. (I mean, if that box of nails perhaps shed light about some key aspect of history, that would be a different matter. This, even if true, makes no difference to anything, does it. So, just trivia. ...Again, though, cool story even so, particularly if it's investigated properly and written up well.)

That detail from 8enetto about the box of nails, and how valuable nails were back in those days, was very interesting! ...Wonder what things about us, and what we consider valuable, will seem impossibly quaint and ...different, to our sons and grandsons 50 years down? (50, because things are changing faster than before, isn't it, some things anyway.)



eta: So why'd your ancestor hand out that very valuable box of very valuable nails to him? Any story/hypothesis in family tradition about that? I mean, if those things were so valuable that they were like money, and people burned down houses and then rooted around in the ashes to get at them, then you wouldn't hand them out to some nondescript rando passing by, would you? )
Click to expand...

He was able to make more Nails, and he was a Methodist Minister, Thomas Lincoln just didn't have the Money to pay for the Nails. The note was a thank you, and Payment for the Nails, in 1818, 2 years after Lincoln arrived in Indiana. Thomas
Lincoln was destitute, having lost 2 Farms in Kentucky.

The only Question is was the river low, as in the Cloverport story, or was the River high as in the Story told at the Republican Convention in 1860.
If the Ohio was low from a drought then Lincoln could have crossed at Cloverport if the River was high he would have had to have crossed at Hawesville on the Thompson Ferry, where the Lincoln Trail Bridge currently is.
If he crossed at Hawesville he stayed at Pates Station and my Family's story is true. I don't believe the Cloverport story is True because it only appears after 1930, and Tree Ring Data shows local tree rings were fat in the year 1816, so it appears their was no drought in 1816.
However to prove which story is true you would have to look at tree ring data, for the year 1816 from the entire Ohio Valley up stream of Hawesville.

This was the wife of Abraham.
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-breckenridge-news-nancy-roberts-wif/38764996/
 
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8enotto said:
Verification of the entire story does require that letter/map be located and authenticated.

Probable and plausible are much easier to imagine.
Click to expand...

Lincoln Built his first Cabin in Indiana in 1816-1817 in winter without nails that wouldn't have been possible. He wasn't allowed to burn his Cabins on the farms he lost, and recover the Nails so broke destitute he had to get Nails Somewhere along the way too Indiana.

You can look it up in thev1967 Department of the interior publication.
Lincoln Boyhood a working Farm, it is available on PDF, on line.
 
Also, I'm calling ******** on this. I don't believe that in the six minutes between my post and your response you "asked some of my Friends and they said the fire was referenced in" this book.

(I used one of those new Fangled Telliophones to Call a friend who works at the Lewisport Library where a Copy of the book is located.

Here is an example of how a Telliophone works.)

https://youtu.be/-dCO0N5kudU?feature=shared


(Your citation is clearly copied and pasted from here:


https://nkaa.uky.edu/nkaa/items/show/300002229

...and is handily only viewable in situ, after submitting a request to the Special Collections Research Centre of the University of Kentucky, making it practically impossible to verify.)

Can I help it that the book is only available at the Lewisport Kentucky Library, it makes Reference to a News article in the Times of London though but I couldn't find that article on line.


Please show some evidence to support your claims that;


  • Princess Victoria bankrolled coal mines in Kentucky at the age of 14
(It was Bankrolled by the Royal Family, Victoria taking over the funding when she became Queen, and in honor of here ascension to the Throne Victoria Crossroads was named after her.)

  • A nine year old Prince Edward invested in a coal oil plant in Kentucky and/or his mother did

( His Mother did, after 1859 the Company died do to oil being a less expensive source of Kerosene.)

  • There was a 'Coal Mine Office' in Buckingham Palace

(No the Office was at Cloverport destroyed in the Cloverport Fire.)

  • Said 'Coal Mine Office' was destroyed by fire following a demonstration of coal oil "to Queen Victoria's Friends and Fellow investors inside Buckingham Palace"

(The Coal Mine office was in Cloverport, they stored wooden Barrels Filled Kerosene in the Warehouse where the Office was located, the Ledgend Is a worker moving Barrels lit a cigarette inside the Warehouse and found out smoking was bad for his health when Gas Vapors went Boom.)

  • Britain was running out of whale oil in or around 1850
[/QUOTE]
That is well noted as the price of whale oil was over $1.00 US a gallon.
Kerosene was .10 cents a gallon, and low sulfur Cannel Coal didn't give off the sulfur smell of Scottish Bog oil Coal Oil.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
...Can I help it that the book is only available at the Lewisport Kentucky Library, it makes Reference to a News article in the Times of London though but I couldn't find that article on line...
Click to expand...

Then why did you quote the University of Kentucky library (in Lexington) catalogue, not Hancock County Public Library, in Lewisport?


Crazy Chainsaw said:
junkshop said:
...Please show some evidence to support your claims that;


  • Princess Victoria bankrolled coal mines in Kentucky at the age of 14
Click to expand...
(It was Bankrolled by the Royal Family, Victoria taking over the funding when she became Queen, and in honor of here ascension to the Throne Victoria Crossroads was named after her.)...
Click to expand...

I asked for evidence for your claim, not another unsupported story.


Crazy Chainsaw said:
junkshop said:
  • A nine year old Prince Edward invested in a coal oil plant in Kentucky and/or his mother did
Click to expand...

( His Mother did, after 1859 the Company died do to oil being a less expensive source of Kerosene.)
Click to expand...

I asked for evidence for your claim, not another unsupported story.

Crazy Chainsaw said:
junkshop said:
  • There was a 'Coal Mine Office' in Buckingham Palace
Click to expand...

(No the Office was at Cloverport destroyed in the Cloverport Fire.)

junkshop said:
  • Said 'Coal Mine Office' was destroyed by fire following a demonstration of coal oil "to Queen Victoria's Friends and Fellow investors inside Buckingham Palace"
Click to expand...

(The Coal Mine office was in Cloverport, they stored wooden Barrels Filled Kerosene in the Warehouse where the Office was located, the Ledgend Is a worker moving Barrels lit a cigarette inside the Warehouse and found out smoking was bad for his health when Gas Vapors went Boom.)
Click to expand...

Then why did you offer this up in response to a request for evidence of a fire at Buckingham Palace?

Crazy Chainsaw said:
junkshop said:
  • Britain was running out of whale oil in or around 1850
Click to expand...
That is well noted as the price of whale oil was over $1.00 US a gallon.
Kerosene was .10 cents a gallon, and low sulfur Cannel Coal didn't give off the sulfur smell of Scottish Bog oil Coal Oil.
Click to expand...

That is not 'running out', it is also not evidence.
 
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Crazy Chainsaw said:
Also, I'm calling ******** on this. I don't believe that in the six minutes between my post and your response you "asked some of my Friends and they said the fire was referenced in" this book.

(I used one of those new Fangled Telliophones to Call a friend who works at the Lewisport Library where a Copy of the book is located.

Here is an example of how a Telliophone works.)

https://youtu.be/-dCO0N5kudU?feature=shared


(Your citation is clearly copied and pasted from here:


https://nkaa.uky.edu/nkaa/items/show/300002229

...and is handily only viewable in situ, after submitting a request to the Special Collections Research Centre of the University of Kentucky, making it practically impossible to verify.)

Can I help it that the book is only available at the Lewisport Kentucky Library, it makes Reference to a News article in the Times of London though but I couldn't find that article on line.


Please show some evidence to support your claims that;


  • Princess Victoria bankrolled coal mines in Kentucky at the age of 14
(It was Bankrolled by the Royal Family, Victoria taking over the funding when she became Queen, and in honor of here ascension to the Throne Victoria Crossroads was named after her.)

  • A nine year old Prince Edward invested in a coal oil plant in Kentucky and/or his mother did

( His Mother did, after 1859 the Company died do to oil being a less expensive source of Kerosene.)

  • There was a 'Coal Mine Office' in Buckingham Palace

(No the Office was at Cloverport destroyed in the Cloverport Fire.)

  • Said 'Coal Mine Office' was destroyed by fire following a demonstration of coal oil "to Queen Victoria's Friends and Fellow investors inside Buckingham Palace"

(The Coal Mine office was in Cloverport, they stored wooden Barrels Filled Kerosene in the Warehouse where the Office was located, the Ledgend Is a worker moving Barrels lit a cigarette inside the Warehouse and found out smoking was bad for his health when Gas Vapors went Boom.)

  • Britain was running out of whale oil in or around 1850
Click to expand...
That is well noted as the price of whale oil was over $1.00 US a gallon.
Kerosene was .10 cents a gallon, and low sulfur Cannel Coal didn't give off the sulfur smell of Scottish Bog oil Coal Oil.[/QUOTE]

At February 20th 2003, some pyrotechnics started a fire in the Station nightclub, killing 100 and injuring 230 people.
See? I can cite unrelated fires as well. And in my case this one can be checked independently.

So, forgetting the unrelated Cloverport fire.
How about that Buckingham Palace fire you mentioned in post 55?
 
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junkshop said:
Then why did you quote the University of Kentucky library (in Lexington) catalogue, not Hancock County Public Library, in Lewisport?




I asked for evidence for your claim, not another unsupported story.




I asked for evidence for your claim, not another unsupported story.



Then why did you offer this up in response to a request for evidence of a fire at Buckingham Palace?



That is not 'running out', it is also not evidence.
Click to expand...

I am looking for a PDF that has Information about the Coal Mine and Queen Victoria's Family Financial Involvement, I believe the Company was Incorperated in 1833, and Victoria invested in 1837.
 
junkshop said:
Then why did you quote the University of Kentucky library (in Lexington) catalogue, not Hancock County Public Library, in Lewisport?




I asked for evidence for your claim, not another unsupported story.




I asked for evidence for your claim, not another unsupported story.



Then why did you offer this up in response to a request for evidence of a fire at Buckingham Palace?



That is not 'running out', it is also not evidence.
Click to expand...

junkshop said:
Forget about it. Life's too short.
Click to expand...

If I get a chance I will Run down to Lewisport and get a photo of the page in that book where it talks about the fire, I haven't seen it In 30 years, but I remember it does site a London News Paper as source.
 
erwinl said:
That is well noted as the price of whale oil was over $1.00 US a gallon.
Kerosene was .10 cents a gallon, and low sulfur Cannel Coal didn't give off the sulfur smell of Scottish Bog oil Coal Oil.
Click to expand...

At February 20th 2003, some pyrotechnics started a fire in the Station nightclub, killing 100 and injuring 230 people.
See? I can cite unrelated fires as well. And in my case this one can be checked independently.

So, forgetting the unrelated Cloverport fire.
How about that Buckingham Palace fire you mentioned in post 55?[/QUOTE]

I am looking for the reference on it but it seems the only Reference I can find, is in the book at Lewisport.
Yes it was funded By the United States Educational Department and that is a minus on the book I guess.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Only red onions were available at the time due to Thomas Edison being seen picking his nose on a train in 1848.
Click to expand...

The only way the letter could have been Real is if it were Written by Thomas Lincoln's first Wife, and signed By Thomas Lincoln, and Abraham Lincoln after she wrote it.

So I now myself doubt the letter was genuine.
The question still remains though did the Lincolns stop at Pates Station, I have proposed a scientific means to discover the truth.
 
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Crazy Chainsaw said:
The question still remains though did the Lincolns stop at Pates Station, I have proposed a scientific means to discover the truth.
Click to expand...

I think the only question remaining is "who the hell cares if juvenile Abe stopped at Pates Station?" It's not like anything of significance is revealed. No historical importance. Do you think he was like a god whose every possible footprint or petrified load of crap must be preserved for eternity‽
 
Thermal said:
I think the only question remaining is "who the hell cares if juvenile Abe stopped at Pates Station?" It's not like anything of significance is revealed. No historical importance. Do you think he was like a god whose every possible footprint or petrified load of crap must be preserved for eternity‽
Click to expand...

No but, it could have helped form his mind and his early opinions about Slavory if the stories are True, and real Historians might want to know.

It's as simple as if tree rings are fat, he likely crossed at the Thompson's Ferry in Hawesville, if Tree Rings are skinny he likely crossed at Cloverport, and Republicans at the Convention in 1860 Lied too the American People.
If the story of him at Pates Station is true, then that might explain, some things about Lincolns Caractor later in life. It was said at 7 he snuck down to the old Mill where the Slave Girls were bathing, and threw Burdock burrs into their Hair, and he wasn't punished for doing that.
 
Thermal said:
I think the only question remaining is "who the hell cares if juvenile Abe stopped at Pates Station?" It's not like anything of significance is revealed. No historical importance. Do you think he was like a god whose every possible footprint or petrified load of crap must be preserved for eternity‽
Click to expand...

1816, was the Year without a Summer, which probably explains why the Lincolns were starving, I also Doubt the Cloverport story because Rains were unusually heavy that year.
That is backed up by local tree ring data.
I think that history may have been lost because of Political infighting over a bridge.

https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/how-climate-works/mount-tambora-and-year-without-summer
 
This should be your big takeaway from this thread:

Crazy Chainsaw said:
So I now myself doubt the letter was genuine.
Click to expand...

This is honest of you, but also should alter your view of family recounting. If you reasonably think that your family was so full of **** that they were literally forging documents to suggest a lot of inside dope on honest Abe, you need to dismiss all of their historical recounting relating to Lincoln and his presence in your backyard. Like literally all of it. If they stooped to deliberate forgery, just disregard their stories. They are now known to be totally unreliable.
 
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Thermal said:
This should be your big takeaway from this thread:



This is honest of you, but also should alter your view of family recounting. If you reasonably think that your family was so full of **** that they were literally forging documents to suggest a lot of inside dope on honest Abe, you need to dismiss all of their historical recounting relating to Lincoln and his presence in your backyard. Like literally all of it. If they stooped to deliberate forgery, just disregard their stories. They are now known to be totally unreliable.
Click to expand...

The only Possible way the letter could have been Real is if Nancy Hanks Lincoln ot one of her Grandparents had written it, and Thomas and Abraham Signed it.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
The only Possible way the letter could have been Real is if Nancy Hanks Lincoln ot one of her Grandparents had written it, and Thomas and Abraham Signed it.
Click to expand...

Which is completely ridiculous, and unrelated to the post you are replying to.

As difficult as it may be, you have strong evidence that your family was making up bull **** stories to conjure up an association with Abraham Lincoln. You need to completely disregard other family stories relating to him. If they come from deceitful forgers, they have not the slightest credibility.
 
arthwollipot said:
Look back at the records of common ancestors that you can find, look for records of their descendants. Registries of Births Deaths and Marriages, church records, newspaper archives are all useful. The field is genealogy and it can be a rich source of family knowledge.

Just make sure you get a good editor and proofreader when you do.
Click to expand...

And a lawyer well up on libel.
 
8enotto said:
The early 1800"s were fairly well documented with contracts and newspapers.
Is this all oral tradition or is there something in an archive or museum to back it up?
I would think the British crown investing in a coal mine in the former colonies would be quite notable.
Especially when England has lots of high grade coal at home that they had already been exploiting for decades.

CC, it's a cool story but it fails on the surface. I think the old timers you talked to may not be totally accurate on details. It would have been about 150 years between the event and the man telling you being born. You didn't question that?
Click to expand...

Yeah there is a reason why "shipping coal to Newcastle" became a phrase in the 19th century denoting something extremely stupid.

There are still plenty of coal reserves in the UK, it's just that successive governments over the past 50-60 years have progressively shut down the industries that made coal mining viable.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
Yeah there is a reason why "shipping coal to Newcastle" became a phrase in the 19th century denoting something extremely stupid.

There are still plenty of coal reserves in the UK, it's just that successive governments over the past 50-60 years have progressively shut down the industries that made coal mining viable.
Click to expand...

Yes there are plenty of Coal reserves but not much Cannel Coal left capible of being made into clean Kerosene, by the 1840s process.
 
Thermal said:
Which is completely ridiculous, and unrelated to the post you are replying to.

As difficult as it may be, you have strong evidence that your family was making up bull **** stories to conjure up an association with Abraham Lincoln. You need to completely disregard other family stories relating to him. If they come from deceitful forgers, they have not the slightest credibility.
Click to expand...

But Why would the Forgery it never benefitted my Family any, it is way a great deception even Naming his son Abe, after his childhood Friend, Abe Lincoln.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/85242185/abraham_sanders
 
Just wanted to add, it's going to be Impossible to tell which story is True, because tree ring data doesn't exist for the year 2016 do to the Tambora Volcanic Eruption of April 1815.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Just wanted to add, it's going to be Impossible to tell which story is True, because tree ring data doesn't exist for the year 2016 do to the Tambora Volcanic Eruption of April 1815.
Click to expand...

Don't you hate it when volcanic eruptions erase tree rings two centuries later?
 
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