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Historians: Obama 12th best President

Arcade22

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Folks please note this has been moved to the "History..." section.
Posted By: Darat


Historians have ranked Barack Obama the 12th best president of all time, the highest rated since President Ronald Reagan, in a new C-SPAN survey released Friday.

Less than a month after exiting the White House, Obama received high marks from presidential historians for his pursuit of "equal justice for all" and for his commanding "moral authority," ranking third and seventh among all former presidents in each respective category. The 44th president also cracked a top 10 ranking for his "economic management" and public persuasion.

The former president's tenure earned its lowest marks for the relationship between the presidency and Congress, with bitter partisanship often stagnating the effectiveness between the two and Obama seeing his Democratic majority slip in both the House of Representatives and the Senate during his eight years in office.

Historians, however, remained mixed on whether Obama's standing so soon after leaving office was higher or lower than expected.

"Although 12th is a respectable overall ranking, one would have thought that former President Obama’s favorable rating when he left office would have translated into a higher ranking in this presidential survey," said Edna Greene Medford, a Howard University professor and member of C-SPAN's historical advisory board.

Others, though, felt the former president's performance fresh out of office was remarkable.

"That Obama came in at number 12 his first time out is quite impressive," Douglas Brinkley, a Rice University professor and C-SPAN adviser, said in a press release.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/all-time-best-president-united-states-rankings-235149

Compared to Trump Obama comes off as very moderate and conservative indeed. Despite Republican's trying portray him as being "leftist" or even communist he's clearly on the center-right as seen from European countries.
 
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Is this like the Nobel Peace Prize?

One would have to be incredibly naive to believe this. It actually funny...
 
I'd heard he is ranked fourth:

#1 Washington
#2 Lincoln
#3 All the rest in a tie
#4 Obama.
 
I can understand just how frustrating this is for all the anti-Obama posters on the Forum: Obama leaving office with very high approval ratings, a Nobel Peach Prize (which was, as I see it, awarded to the USA as a whole to recognize the progress his election demonstrated in terms of racial prejudice- at least as we hoped at that time) and now this 12th best consensus by 91 Presidential historians. Must really get one's shorts in a twist!

So what other response might these anti-Obama posters advance except that it is way too early to tell. Predictable, and there is some truth there, although as noted above, Obama's time as president is done. It's over. One can certainly legitimately rank what he has achieved at the end of his term versus what other presidents achieved at the end of theirs. But if we agree that we must wait for "the verdict of history" then how can Obama's critics on this Forum claim that the can legitimately judge him now, and that the 91 historians are wrong? Either everyone must wait many years to be able to offer an accurate judgement, or if a Forum member feels that they can judge him now, then the 91 presidential historians can judge him now as well. It's the Forum member versus the historians. And of course the historians may be incorrect- but please, none of the "verdict of history" stuff from the people who are only to willing to form their own judgements right now.
 
Thinking about Trump some day joining this list, I wonder if the rankings are a linear or logarithmic scale?
 
I can understand just how frustrating this is for all the anti-Obama posters on the Forum: Obama leaving office with very high approval ratings, a Nobel Peach Prize (which was, as I see it, awarded to the USA as a whole to recognize the progress his election demonstrated in terms of racial prejudice- at least as we hoped at that time) and now this 12th best consensus by 91 Presidential historians. ..,..,..

Where is the skepticism of selection bias of those 91 historians? I suspect they are cut from the same cloth as who ever decided to give him a Noble Prize before he even took office.

Though kudos for the way you look at the prize.
 
(which was, as I see it, awarded to the USA as a whole to recognize the progress his election demonstrated in terms of racial prejudice- at least as we hoped at that time)
It was explicitly awarded for his stance on international relations, with the examples being reaching out to the Islamic world during the Cairo speech, expressing strong commitment to nuclear non-proliferation, and vowing to combat climate change.

With all due respect, I think you overestimate both the level of understanding, and concern for, U.S. ethnic tensions that Norwegian political party members have.
 
It's way too early to know where he ranks (for good or Ill).

Pretty much. This is a decision for historians 100 or more years from now. Indeed, the almost certain fawning nature of most of these professors immediately disqualifies them from issuing such pronouncements as surely as some historians who like Fox News would be.

The very fact it is being trumpeted as a political bragging point emphasizes this.


By this standard, we're only just now passing the time when it is ok to make judgements on guys like Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt.
 
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Where is the skepticism of selection bias of those 91 historians? I suspect they are cut from the same cloth as who ever decided to give him a Noble Prize before he even took office.

Though kudos for the way you look at the prize.

Certainly I did consider the possibility that C-SPAN intentionally selected the presidential historians surveyed based on a hypothetical C-SPAN pro-Obama bias. But the more I thought about it the less and less it seemed plausible:

First: it would take an enormous amount of dedicated work and effort in advance for C-SPAN to identify 91 presidential historians with the "desired" bias- they would had to research many additional historians (total of hundreds!) as to their prior publications and public positions so as to specifically exclude the "wrong" historians, etc.. All just to generate a survey that C-Span would know in advance was meaningless and fake. Just as a going-away gift to Obama I presume?

Then, and more importantly, I examined the actual rankings. Ronald Reagan was ranked 9, well above Obama! With Theodore Roosevelt 4, Eisenhower 5, and with Jimmy Carter 26! That hardly looks like a preselected, pro-Democratic, heavily liberal-biased ranking!

Finally, although every visible entity has been accused of political bias at one point or another by one group or another, C-SPAN appears to have been relatively immune to such accusations. It certainly doesn't have a documented history of any such bias.

So yes indeed, I applied my skepticism and reached a different conclusion from what you causally suggested as a possibility (presumably without researching it). Sure it was possible in theory, but turned out not to the the case on more careful examination.

I went even further- given the known reality bias manifested in academia, might 91 historians, even selected randomly, be biased in a liberal direction? Indeed I suspect this is true to some extent (although here again we have the very high ranking of Reagan arguing against it playing an over-riding role in this survey). But if true, then, what we have here is the consensus of 91 presidential historians (each with their own political bias, but each an expert on presidential history) versus the 10 or so anti-Obama posters on the Forum (each with their own political bias and each with a strong opinion on Obama). Fair enough- it all comes down to opinion. But it is an unequal competition, as I see it. And I add that the survey specified the criteria the historians employed to make their rankings, whereas the anti's in this thread have documented their claims so far with unsupported declarations, asides and poor jokes.
 
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It was explicitly awarded for his stance on international relations, with the examples being reaching out to the Islamic world during the Cairo speech, expressing strong commitment to nuclear non-proliferation, and vowing to combat climate change.

With all due respect, I think you overestimate both the level of understanding, and concern for, U.S. ethnic tensions that Norwegian political party members have.

I am not really disagreeing with you- many factors probably played a role. I think that the Nobel committee awarded it to Obama for a variety of reasons, many of them based on the concept that his election represented a new era heralding a number of different things: a turn-around in racism, a reaching out to other cultures throughout the world, nuclear non-proliferation, combating climate change, etc. A lot of it was based (as you indicate) on his stances rather than his achievements at that very early time in his Presidency. And as recognition that his very election was meaningful in terms of who he is and his positions on these topics. Lastly I suspect the Nobel committee also hoped that the prize would strengthen his ability to make his stances and positions into actual achievements.

I only wish that events, many or most of which were outside of Obama's control, had permitted him to achieve more of what he (and I) had hoped for.
 
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I think that one can legitimately compare presidents to one another if done at comparable times, either at the end of their terms or by looking much later at "the verdict of history." However I have begun to wonder about the latter- how often does the passage of time truly improve our understanding of a historical event, rather than just give us the false impression of understanding due to the true complexities of the event become lost with time? I really do not know.

More specifically (and this is a legitimate request for information): what examples do we have of how the legacy of a President became radically re-interpreted with time? Lincoln died both revered and hated. Overtime he remained an icon for many, but is still reviled by many in the South. In fact he achieved tremendous things for the country, but did very dicy ones as well. Has time changed, or even provided greater insight and clarity, into Lincoln's worth as a President? As I see it, time only elevated Lincoln into a false imitation of the real man which is now sold as a patriotic meme to young children in school, rather than yield a more accurate understanding. BTW- I do highly respect Lincoln from what I do know of him, but I think I would have felt the same in 1865

What examples are there? I am truly interested because I always assumed that they must exist, yet I am unable to summon up any right now. Help me.
 
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I think that one can legitimately compare presidents to one another if done at comparable times, either at the end of their terms or by looking much later at "the verdict of history." However I have begun to wonder about the latter- how often does the passage of time truly improve our understanding of a historical event, rather than just give us the false impression of understanding due to the true complexities of the event become lost with time? I really do not know.

More specifically (and this is a legitimate request for information): what examples do we have of how the legacy of a President became radically re-interpreted with time? Lincoln died both revered and hated. Overtime he remained an icon for many, but is still reviled by many in the South. In fact he achieved tremendous things for the country, but did very dicy ones as well. Has time changed, or even provided greater insight and clarity, into Lincoln's worth as a President? As I see it, time only elevated Lincoln into a false imitation of the real man which is now sold as a patriotic meme to young children in school, rather than yield a more accurate understanding. BTW- I do highly respect Lincoln from what I do know of him, but I think I would have felt the same in 1865

What examples are there? I am truly interested because I always assumed that they must exist, yet I am unable to summon up any right now. Help me.

Well, to gauge that accurately you probably need to see the same panel and their rankings at ten-year intervals. I think Johnson (Lyndon - Andrew was a joke) gets credit for the civil rights legislation and Nixon took over the war guilt, but he was nearly reviled when he left office.)

It's interesting to see favorites falling, too. Jefferson is usually ranked somewhere from 2 to 6. I think that "slave-owner" thing grates on some people. Andrew Jackson is also falling. I guess the response to "the guy who really was the first of the new Democratic Party" now gets a response of "And you think that's a good thing?"

I think the C-span poll weighs heavily on civil rights. Truman's pretty high - probably because of the desegregation of the armed forces. Johnson, as mentioned, Lincoln - obviously, Obama.

Here's an article that doesn't include this week's survey.

https://www.aol.com/article/2015/11...ing-of-presidents-changed-over-time/21271185/

But some of the responses would appear to be based on the need to score other presidents more negatively. At one point in one poll in that link, William Henry Harrison (Old Tippecanoe) was ranked 26th.... better than fourteen others! The guy did nothing in office. He caught pneumonia during the inauguration parade and died within eight weeks. Yet he was better than 14 other POTUS? That's not impossible... I mean, Andrew Johnson did so much damage that we would've been better leaving the office empty after Lincoln's assassination.
 
Wow, did he have a huge plantation? How did he have time to eat with all that murdering? He must have been murdering all day.

I have been in the military. Enslaving me to do that job against my will would be a fate worse than death.
 
More specifically (and this is a legitimate request for information): what examples do we have of how the legacy of a President became radically re-interpreted with time? Lincoln died both revered and hated. Overtime he remained an icon for many, but is still reviled by many in the South. In fact he achieved tremendous things for the country, but did very dicy ones as well. Has time changed, or even provided greater insight and clarity, into Lincoln's worth as a President? As I see it, time only elevated Lincoln into a false imitation of the real man which is now sold as a patriotic meme to young children in school, rather than yield a more accurate understanding. BTW- I do highly respect Lincoln from what I do know of him, but I think I would have felt the same in 1865

What examples are there? I am truly interested because I always assumed that they must exist, yet I am unable to summon up any right now. Help me.

From what I've seen, time does allow a more balanced understanding of a president's legacy. Jefferson is a good example, as his philosophy of small-farmer government is so clearly outdated (but the Louisiana Purchase alone outweighs everything else). Jackson for me is the one whose reputation cannot be rescued -- yet his legacy as the first truly democratic (small d) president is also immeasurable. Of course Lincoln has been idealized, but every great man does have flaws, and saving the union is a rather one-of-a-kind accomplishment, don't you think? (And where do you get this thing about Southerners today hating him?) Then, Andrew Johnson was actually on the right side of his impeachment battle, and his attitude toward the conquered South would likely have been more fruitful than the Radical Republicans'. Which is not to say that his faults were any less objectionable.

The same thing continues through the twentieth century. Woodrow Wilson and both the Roosevelts actively supported racist policies. Wilson is on a short list of most overrated presidents, but the Roosevelts both did have enduring positive impacts. Nixon is having a modified rehabilitation as people realize how much more moderate he was than the current crop of Republicans. And then there's Reagan, don't even get me started on Reagan, but I predict his fall will come someday.

So yes, I think it's way too early to say what Obama's legacy will be. To me the big accomplishment was the Affordable Care Act, which if it stands will be equivalent to Johnson-era results. I'm cautiously optimistic that it will stand, but time will tell. Without that, it's hard to say what Obama left behind.

The more history I read, the more fascinating I find all the little twists and tweaks that make a person and a presidency one thing or the other. I read my first biography of George W. Bush recently, and came out of it actually respecting him slightly. We always oversimplify our politicians and our politics.
 
I don't get it.

"with liberty and justice for all."

An answer to Bob the C's question as to who decided that achieving equal justice was an appropriate criterion for defining the success of a President. I guess one could interpret the Pledge as only advocating "justice" and not "equal justice" if one was a hard nose about grammar.
 
"with liberty and justice for all."

An answer to Bob the C's question as to who decided that achieving equal justice was an appropriate criterion for defining the success of a President. I guess one could interpret the Pledge as only advocating "justice" and not "equal justice" if one was a hard nose about grammar.

Still doesn't establish why a country's internal ethics should govern a Ranking of their executives.
 
Compared to Trump Obama comes off as very moderate and conservative indeed. Despite Republican's trying portray him as being "leftist" or even communist he's clearly on the center-right as seen from European countries.

I don't know why people feel the need to remind us of this every time. In American terms, Obama is certainly left of center; otherwise he would not have gotten the support of his own party. It doesn't matter where he would fit on the left/right axis politically in Europe or Botswana. If Obama had run as a left of center politician compared to European standards he would have gotten wiped out--probably in the primaries.

As for the ranking I'm old enough to remember when historians positively glowed when they talked about Woodrow Wilson, and Harry Truman was considered something of a joke, certainly nowhere near the "Great or Near-Great" category he usually occupies these days. LBJ was reviled by his own party when he left office (largely over the issue of Vietnam).

Way too soon to judge. And I don't trust the judges, who are probably overwhelmingly Democrats.
 
I don't know why people feel the need to remind us of this every time. In American terms, Obama is certainly left of center; otherwise he would not have gotten the support of his own party. It doesn't matter where he would fit on the left/right axis politically in Europe or Botswana. If Obama had run as a left of center politician compared to European standards he would have gotten wiped out--probably in the primaries.

As for the ranking I'm old enough to remember when historians positively glowed when they talked about Woodrow Wilson, and Harry Truman was considered something of a joke, certainly nowhere near the "Great or Near-Great" category he usually occupies these days. LBJ was reviled by his own party when he left office (largely over the issue of Vietnam).

Way too soon to judge. And I don't trust the judges, who are probably overwhelmingly Democrats.

So you would also feel that it is way too early for you to judge Obama too? I had a different impression from your other posts, but that's great. I heartedly accept your current position.

As to your presumption that the judges were many Democrats- handy way of dismissing something you don't wish to accept, and maybe true given the general political composition of academia, but stated without any direct evidence. As I noted up thread, the high rankings of many Republicans in this poll, including Reagan as significantly better than Obama (!), are inconsistent with political party or leanings playing a dominant role in the rankings. If most judges were Democrats it seems that they were able to remove themselves from their party affiliation and generate a fairly bipartisan rating.
 
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Folks please note this has been moved to the "History..." section.
Posted By: Darat




http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/all-time-best-president-united-states-rankings-235149

Compared to Trump Obama comes off as very moderate and conservative indeed. Despite Republican's trying portray him as being "leftist" or even communist he's clearly on the center-right as seen from European countries.

No this type of rating needs to wait until he is dead and his term is looked at by people who were not alive in his presidency.
 
Too early to tell on Obama. A common criticism that I agree with, the historians are biased toward war and expansion of federal and executive authority.
 
James Buchanan has a headlock on last place because of the damage that resulted from his Presidency:his incompetence and stupidity from 1856 to 1860 was a major factor in bringing on the Civil War.
 

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