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Daihatsu in Trouble

angrysoba

Philosophile
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Dec 8, 2009
Messages
37,765
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Osaka, Japan
Wasn't sure if I should put this in the "local news" section, but the Japanese car-maker, Daihatsu (headquartered in Osaka), have become embroiled in a huge scandal that could have a massive impact for the company, its parent company, Toyota, and Japanese car manufacturing in general...

Daihatsu Motor suspended all domestic production on Tuesday, with the schedule for restarting operations at the plants unclear amid a safety testing scandal that affects most of its models.
The automaker halted operations at its factory in Osaka Prefecture, where the Copen minivehicle is assembled, on Tuesday. Of the company's four factories in Japan, it was the last to be halted...

Japan’s transport ministry raided Daihatsu’s headquarters in Osaka last week following revelations that the carmaker manipulated the results of safety tests dating as far back as 1989. A third-party investigation requested by Daihatsu in April — when suspected wrongdoing first emerged — found that 174 issues had been identified across 64 models, including in some sold under the Toyota brand.

Link
 
On the flip side, I hear shares in companies that make seppuku knives are going pretty well.

I doubt it will have much of an affect on Toyota itself, aside from some pretty severe questions regarding oversight.

Wouldn't Business & Economics be the place for the thread?
 
They will survive. Car manufacturers can do anything. When caught they fix the problem and carry on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772
many VW cars being sold in America had a "defeat device" - or software - in diesel engines that could detect when they were being tested, changing the performance accordingly to improve results. The German car giant has since admitted cheating emissions tests in the US
 
They will survive. Car manufacturers can do anything. When caught they fix the problem and carry on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772

Cummins is about to pay a record setting $1.67 billion dollars for it's cheating in EPA tests, and they will likely stay in business.

From the article,

"The company has seen no evidence that anyone acted in bad faith and does not admit wrongdoing," Cummins said in a statement.

They installed almost a million devices specifically made to cheat emissions controls over a six year period, they had to purchase and/or design them, assign the task of installing them, document the installation process in work instructions in order to train people to install these devices (Cummins uses 'temp' workers a lot), and have the devices in their procurement records in order to trace failures related to the devices...but no one acted in bad faith.

Utter ********.
 
They installed almost a million devices specifically made to cheat emissions controls over a six year period, they had to purchase and/or design them, assign the task of installing them, document the installation process in work instructions in order to train people to install these devices (Cummins uses 'temp' workers a lot), and have the devices in their procurement records in order to trace failures related to the devices...but no one acted in bad faith.

Utter ********.

Utter ******** indeed. Those bastards programmed the car's computer to detect when the vehicle was on a dynamometer - it was in gear, engine running, but the GPS could see there was no distance being covered. When those conditions were met, it triggered an emissions curbing system that reduced the emissions enough to pass the EPA regulations. When the system was turned off, cars emitted up to 40 times the amount of nitrogen oxides allowed under those regulations.

They out-and-out cheated the system.. they knew exactly what they were doing, and they knew it was illegal, but they did it anyway.
How can that be anything other than bad faith?
 
Utter ******** indeed. Those bastards programmed the car's computer to detect when the vehicle was on a dynamometer - it was in gear, engine running, but the GPS could see there was no distance being covered. When those conditions were met, it triggered an emissions curbing system that reduced the emissions enough to pass the EPA regulations. When the system was turned off, cars emitted up to 40 times the amount of nitrogen oxides allowed under those regulations.

They out-and-out cheated the system.. they knew exactly what they were doing, and they knew it was illegal, but they did it anyway.
How can that be anything other than bad faith?

Seems like they did not learn anything from the Volkswagen scandal.
 
I've got a VW based car with a 1.4 liter petrol engine with plenty of power. It's the real deal. Great fuel economy and low emissions. I think the excursion into their fraud was partly because they suspected or knew everyone else was gaming the system. Also they were promised a miracle by some engineers but it turned out to be technologically impossible.

If they had just used AdBlue from the start they would have avoided all that pain and still sold a lot of diesel engines.
 
Here's another link that isn't paywalled:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...production-in-japan-after-safety-test-scandal



So, a safety issue in theory but "no reports of related injuries"? This is coming from the company though, so I would take that claim with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Is it Daihatsu saying they've received no reports, or The Guardian saying they found no reports?

ETA: Also, "doors that can be relied upon to open after a major collision" seems like an unreasonably high bar. Your car is wrecked, you'll have to climb out a window or wait for the jaws of life. Sorry for the inconvenience, but, you know. Your car is wrecked.
 
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Here's another link that isn't paywalled:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...production-in-japan-after-safety-test-scandal



So, a safety issue in theory but "no reports of related injuries"? This is coming from the company though, so I would take that claim with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Oh sorry. For some reason it wasn't paywalled for me. I don't know if that is because people get access to a certain number of articles and I just hadn't bothered reading anything from the Japan Times for a while, or somehow I might have an institutional account that lets me read it.
 
Is it Daihatsu saying they've received no reports, or The Guardian saying they found no reports?
From the context it seems to be the Guardian reporter paraphrasing what Daihatsu said. Either way, it doesn't seem like there was more than a cursory inquiry into the matter.

ETA: Also, "doors that can be relied upon to open after a major collision" seems like an unreasonably high bar. Your car is wrecked, you'll have to climb out a window or wait for the jaws of life. Sorry for the inconvenience, but, you know. Your car is wrecked.

In some situations, being able to get out of the car quickly could be the difference between life and death. (That's why the jaws of life are called the jaws of life after all)

From what I can tell, there's a point system. So it probably isn't an absolute requirement that the door can reliably open after a major collision, but if it doesn't, you get a lower safety rating and fewer stars possibly as a result. (It seems to boil down to a 5-star system, a bit like a movie review. More stars means a safer vehicle, up to a maximum of 5.)

So if they were fudging the data to make the vehicles appear to be safer than they really are, i.e., to score higher on overall safety, that's misleading.
 
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Is it Daihatsu saying they've received no reports, or The Guardian saying they found no reports?

ETA: Also, "doors that can be relied upon to open after a major collision" seems like an unreasonably high bar. Your car is wrecked, you'll have to climb out a window or wait for the jaws of life. Sorry for the inconvenience, but, you know. Your car is wrecked.

From the context it seems to be the Guardian reporter paraphrasing what Daihatsu said. Either way, it doesn't seem like there was more than a cursory inquiry into the matter.



In some situations, being able to get out of the car quickly could be the difference between life and death.

From what I can tell, there's a point system. So it probably isn't an absolute requirement that the door can reliably open after a major collision, but if it doesn't, you get a lower safety rating and fewer stars possibly as a result. (It seems to boil down to a 5-star system, a bit like a movie review. More stars means a safer vehicle, up to a maximum of 5.)

So if they were fudging the data to make the vehicles appear to be safer than they really are, i.e., to score higher on overall safety, that's misleading.

From the Japan Times article (weirdly it was paywalled then opened for me):

The investigation centers around air bag control units, after it was found that those used during crash tests were different from the devices used in cars that were sold to the public. While those other test units were later found to meet industry standards, side-collision test results of the Daihatsu Cast and Toyota Pixis models "may not comply with the law,” Toyota has said.

Toyota said it’s not aware of any accidents or incidents related to the issue.

So it sounds like they cheated on the safety tests for airbags, but the ones that were actually used in the manufacture of the car were fine. BUT then... there was an issue with side-collision test results?
 
This article is from the Asahi Shimbun, and centers some of the human impacts:

Daihatsu shuts plants over scandal; host towns at a loss

In Ryuo, a town of a little more than 10,000 residents, the Daihatsu plant employs about 4,000 full-time workers alone.

A company that supplies more than 90 percent of its products to Daihatsu has put more than half of its 1,000 or so employees on leave after it was notified on Dec. 20 that the Daihatsu plant would be shut down amid the scandal.

“It is so difficult that we cannot see a path going forward,” a company official said. “We trust that (Daihatsu) will take steps to deal with the situation.”

Mayor Hideharu Nishida said on Dec. 25 that the town will soon start a consultation service on employment and other issues.

In fiscal 2021, the town started a program to loan a Daihatsu vehicle free of charge for three years to a family that gave birth to two or more children.

However, new applications have been put on hold.

One of the ways that Japan is trying to deal with low birth rates.

The employees of Daihatsu will continue to receive paychecks, but their suppliers are also forced to put employees on leave.
 
So it sounds like they cheated on the safety tests for airbags, but the ones that were actually used in the manufacture of the car were fine. BUT then... there was an issue with side-collision test results?

Daihatsu Cheated Safety Testing For 88,000 Cars
Apr 29, 2023

Toyota confirmed Friday that its affiliate brand Daihatsu manipulated interior door trim during side-collision crash testing of one of its products to avoid the discovery of a potential injury risk. The rigged testing has impacted some 88,000 vehicles sold globally, the vast majority of which left the factory with a Toyota badge.

According to Daihatsu, a whistleblower from inside the company first raised concerns over the untruthful testing earlier this month. The automaker acknowledges that it began an investigation following the notice, ultimately discovering that modifications had indeed been done to the interior of a vehicle ahead of safety tests. More specifically, interior door trim pieces had been modified with a notch in an effort to prevent a sharp break upon deployment of the side airbags. This modification was not matched on the production vehicles...
Genuine oversight, or deliberate fraud? Seems like Daihatsu has a history of not matching parts in production cars to the test vehicles. The fact that a 'whistleblower' raised the alarm suggests they knew about it and covered it up.

This doesn't come close to the outright fraud perpetrated by other companies faking emissions tests (which have a real impact on consumers whose vehicles are far more polluting and less efficient than claimed), but it's still bad. Many people choose a car based at least partly on the safety rating. Daihatsu specializes in making small cars, which are inherently less safe in today's environment where large SUVs and trucks dominate the road. Customers might have bought another brand if Daihatsu's safety rating was lower. The vehicle in question - Toyota RAIZE - gained a 5 star safety rating in 2020 'thanks to near-perfect scores in side impact testing and child occupant protection', but that 'stellar' rating is now called into question.

Interestingly, Daihatsu withdrew from the New Zealand market in 2013, due to being 'unable to ... comply with future regulatory standards for New Zealand'.
 
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They will survive. Car manufacturers can do anything. When caught they fix the problem and carry on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772
Yeah, in a few days everyone will forget about it - this isn't Tesla.

Remember Toyota's 'Unintended Acceleration' problem?
March 20, 2014

Car manufacturer Toyota has agreed to pay a staggering $1.2 billion to avoid prosecution for covering up severe safety problems with “unintended acceleration,” according to court documents, and continuing to make cars with parts the FBI said Toyota “knew were deadly.”

A deferred prosecution agreement, filed today, forced Toyota to “admit” that it “misled U.S. consumers by concealing and making deceptive statements about two safety related issues affecting its vehicles, each of which caused a type of unintended acceleration.”

Toyota “put sales over safety and profit over principle,” according to FBI Assistant Director George Venizelos.

The disregard Toyota had for the safety of the public is outrageous,” Venizelos said. “Not only did Toyota fail to recall cars with problem parts, they continued to manufacture new cars with the same parts they already knew were deadly. When media reports arose of Toyota hiding defects, they emphatically denied what they knew was true, assuring consumers that their cars were safe and reliable… More than speeding cars or a major fine, the ultimate tragedy has been the unwitting consumers who died behind the wheel of Toyota vehicles.”
Yet a few years later they are still one of the largest car manufacturers in the World (second only to Volkswagen in 2022).
 
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Remember Toyota's 'Unintended Acceleration' problem?

Yet a few years later they are still one of the largest car manufacturers in the World (second only to Volkswagen in 2022).

According to the Guardian article I linked in #8 above, which is much more recent:

Daihatsu’s parent company Toyota paid a record $1.2bn settlement to the US Justice Department in 2014 over a series of claims about accelerator pedals and subsequent accidents. No mechanical fault was ever discovered despite numerous investigations and driver error remains the most likely explanation for the crashes that occurred.

And yet, they did pay for the settlement nevertheless. In order to "avoid prosecution" according to the ABC News article:
A deferred prosecution agreement, filed today, forced Toyota to “admit” that it “misled U.S. consumers by concealing and making deceptive statements about two safety related issues affecting its vehicles, each of which caused a type of unintended acceleration.”
Faced with a choice between a possible criminal trial and settling for money, company execs chose the latter.

The theory I remember is that people thought they were stepping on the brake pedal but were in fact stepping on the accelerator. Often people who were driving the car for the first time. Somehow they were misjudging the position of their own foot and didn't look down to see (which I suppose is because they didn't want to take their eyes off the road).

It's an interesting question though. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the Guardian is wrong. But your ABC News article and the Guardian article seem to reach very different conclusions.

If the people were really stepping on the brake rather than the accelerator, and the brakes worked, then even if there was a "sticky" accelerator pedal, wouldn't it stop anyway? It seem like two things would have to happen simultaneously: a stuck accelerator and brakes that don't work.
 
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According to the Guardian article I linked in #8 above, which is much more recent:



And yet, they did pay for the settlement nevertheless. In order to "avoid prosecution" according to the ABC News article:

Faced with a choice between a possible criminal trial and settling for money, company execs chose the latter.

The theory I remember is that people thought they were stepping on the brake pedal but were in fact stepping on the accelerator. Often people who were driving the car for the first time. Somehow they were misjudging the position of their own foot and didn't look down to see (which I suppose is because they didn't want to take their eyes off the road).

It's an interesting question though. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the Guardian is wrong. But your ABC News article and the Guardian article seem to reach very different conclusions.

If the people were really stepping on the brake rather than the accelerator, and the brakes worked, then even if there was a "sticky" accelerator pedal, wouldn't it stop anyway? It seem like two things would have to happen simultaneously: a stuck accelerator and brakes that don't work.

I had to deal with a 'runaway accelerator' once (the linkage had come adrift from the firewall and the return spring stopped working with the linkage flailing around in the air).

I tried to hook the accelerator up from the floor with my foot, and when that didn't work, I turned off the car and rolled to a stop.

Some of the early reports sounded very odd. Brakes didn't work, pedal was stuck, car couldn't be turned off. At the time, I couldn't think of a failure mode that would do all of the reported things at the same time. However, I can imagine drivers that didn't know that they could power down their car by holding down the 'start' button, because that is counter-intuitive.
 
I had an old XB Falcon that regularly stuck at 'full noise' if you planted the accelerator- it had the factory aircleaner on a Holley aftermarket carby, and at full throttle, the linkage plate would jam against the bottom of the air cleaner...
I was just used got it- turn off the ign switch and roll to the side of the road, pop the bonnet and whack the aircleaner... fixed...

I did eventually fix it 'properly' after it did it to my mum when she borrowed it one time and it did it to her lol- some 'percussive massage' with a hammer on the bottom of the aircleaner fixed it for good...

Many of the older 'mechanical' linkage systems were notorious for jamming as they aged, so many drivers were quite aware of how to stop a 'runaway'- another 'lost art' with modern drivers and cars lol
 
The theory I remember is that people thought they were stepping on the brake pedal but were in fact stepping on the accelerator. Often people who were driving the car for the first time. Somehow they were misjudging the position of their own foot and didn't look down to see (which I suppose is because they didn't want to take their eyes off the road).

It's an interesting question though. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the Guardian is wrong. But your ABC News article and the Guardian article seem to reach very different conclusions.
That's not 'my' ABC News article reaching those conclusions, it's the FBI.

Criminal Charge Against Toyota Motor Corporation and Deferred Prosecution Agreement with $1.2 Billion Financial Penalty
In the fall of 2009, Toyota deceived consumers and its U.S. regulator, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), by claiming that it had “addressed” the “root cause” of unintended acceleration in its vehicles through a limited safety recall of eight models for floor mat entrapment, a dangerous condition in which an improperly secured or incompatible all-weather floor mat can “trap” a depressed gas pedal, causing the car to accelerate to a high speed. Such public assurances deceived customers and NHTSA in two ways: first, at the time the statements were made, Toyota knew that it had not recalled some cars with design features that made them just as susceptible to floor mat entrapment as some of the recalled cars. Second, only weeks before these statements were made, Toyota had taken steps to hide from NHTSA another type of unintended acceleration in its vehicles, separate and apart from floor mat entrapment: a problem with accelerators getting stuck at partially depressed levels, known as “sticky pedal.”...

In 2007, following a series of reports alleging unintended acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles, NHTSA opened a defect investigation into the Lexus ES350 model (the vehicle involved in the 2009 San Diego accident) and identified several other Toyota and Lexus models it believed might likewise be defective. Toyota, while denying to NHTSA the need to recall any of its vehicles, conducted an internal investigation in 2007 that revealed that certain Toyota and Lexus models, including most of the ones that NHTSA had identified as potentially problematic, had design features rendering entrapment of the gas pedal by an all-weather floor mat more likely. Toyota did not share these results with NHTSA...

Shortly after Toyota announced its 2007 mat recall, company engineers revised internal design guidelines to provide for, among other things, a minimum clearance of 10 millimeters between a fully depressed gas pedal and the floor. But Toyota decided those revised guidelines would only apply where a model was receiving a “full model redesign”—something each Toyota and Lexus model underwent only about once every three to five years. As a result, even after the revised guidelines had been adopted internally, many new vehicles produced and sold by Toyota—including the Lexus ES350 involved in the 2009 San Diego accident—did not comply with Toyota’s 2007 guidelines.

What is more misleading, at the same time it was assuring the public that the “root cause” of unintended acceleration had been “addressed” by the 2009 eight-model floor mat entrapment recall, Toyota was hiding from NHTSA a second cause of unintended acceleration in its vehicles: the sticky pedal. Sticky pedal, a phenomenon affecting pedals manufactured by a U.S. company (“A-Pedal Company”) and installed in many Toyota brand vehicles in North America as well as Europe, resulted from the use of a plastic material inside the pedals that could cause the accelerator pedal to become mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position.


If the people were really stepping on the brake rather than the accelerator, and the brakes worked, then even if there was a "sticky" accelerator pedal, wouldn't it stop anyway? It seem like two things would have to happen simultaneously: a stuck accelerator and brakes that don't work.
Not necessarily. Brakes are not intended to stop a vehicle while the engine is going full bore. Modern cars should have a brake override system to prevent the engine from overpowering the brakes. But what if for some reason it doesn't work?

The problem with the theory that it was all just driver incompetence is that the NHTSA and FBI both thought there was more to it than that. Maybe some incidents were the fault of the driver, but to posit that they all were means you don't trust the experts who have actually investigated the incidents to know better than you - a very arrogant and dangerous attitude, but a very useful one for Toyota.
 
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