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Baltimore to ban grades lower than 50%?

That rationale has been given several times, you merely keep ignoring it.
I haven't seen any discussion from you about giving somebody a second chance. You merely keep repeating your reasons for automatically giving somebody 50%.

You keep ignoring the mathematics of grade scoring:
Consider a simple scenario of 5 grades. On the first two, you get a B, which translates to an 80%. Then your mom dies in a car crash and you fall apart. You miss two assignments.

What grade do you have to get on your last assignment in order to pass the class with a 60% minimum, if you receive score of 0% for the two that you missed?

What grade do you have to get on your last assignment in order to pass if you received a score of 50% (which is still an F) on those two that you missed?


I suppose if you ignore responses like:
If you are simply going to delete 0% or 10% or 49% and call the mark 50% then all you do is deny a student the knowledge that they either need to improve slightly or that they are completely hopeless.
Then yes, I have ignored the mathematics of grade scoring.
 
I haven't seen any discussion from you about giving somebody a second chance. You merely keep repeating your reasons for automatically giving somebody 50%.
There've been many discussions of second chances, including several that point out that it may not be possible, may not be reasonable, and may not be fair. I felt no need to repeat what someone else has said. I generally expect that a group discussion is just that - that each of us will consider information coming from multiple sources to develop our positions. If you are actually expecting that anything I say gets treated completely in isolation, then this is going to be an awfully repetitive and pointless thread :p

I suppose if you ignore responses like:

Then yes, I have ignored the mathematics of grade scoring.
That comment doesn't address the mathematics of scoring.
 
I don't agree. Make-up tests should only be allowed when the student has a valid excuse for not being able to take the test on the assigned day, not for poor performance on a test they already took. Once they have seen the test questions they should not be able to retake the test - even if the questions are changed slightly (easier in some subjects than others).

Letting them retake the test also teaches the wrong thing - that you get a second chance if you screw up.

Since most tests in pre college schools are made up from a disk or online publisher source that has a large bank of questions that can be hand or program selected to cover the topic, that is not a problem. Except, of course, in a system like the one here where they get one shot at the target.

By the by, it is, with these computer done tests from a large bank of questions to produce a new test with none of the original questions, but one's that cover the same tested areas just as well. As an example, finding the molar mass of a compound is the same process regardless of the compound so any compound is fine
 
I'm fairly certain that they're specifically talking about NOT rescaling the pass mark. You have 5 grades: A, B, C, D, F. You have 5 marks: 90%, 80%, 70%, 60%, 50%.

Prior to this, you have a heavily bottom-weighted scale. It's FAR easier to get an F, 60% of all possible scores are a failing grade.

In the systems I have worked in, 60% was a D-. Very minor point, but not an F. Generally that comes out as (minor variations possible)app. 61- 63 is D-,
64-67 or 8 is D and 68 or 9 is D+. Same for each higher grade. F has the biggest range with 0 - 59. Note: most parents expect the ABCDF thing so most public schools give them that, BUT for college placement and such the actual points seem preferred.
 
There've been many discussions of second chances, including several that point out that it may not be possible, may not be reasonable, and may not be fair.

Is this what you mean by the "many discussions"?
I don't agree. Make-up tests should only be allowed when the student has a valid excuse for not being able to take the test on the assigned day, not for poor performance on a test they already took. Once they have seen the test questions they should not be able to retake the test - even if the questions are changed slightly (easier in some subjects than others).


That comment doesn't address the mathematics of scoring.
You and I have different ideas about mathematics.
 
That doesn't sound like a very good system.

Agreed. Part of (we think) an applied program (including Marzano (of "don't step in the Marzano!!!" fame) to get older teachers to choose to leave/retire so they could replace with pliable young ones who did not know that the perfect or even near perfect way of teaching every subject by every teacher to every student does not exist were simply replacing old styles that had already been found not to work with other old styles that had been found not to work (the key being there is no new method, just new names. Unbelievers should look up older methods and check their supplementary material (learning diagrams and structures are great for verifying this). Ms./Dr. F is great at this and I am great at finding the materials.

We both very kindly decided to retire at the same time - 3 weeks into the opening of school for the benefit of the hatchet man and all around ******* AP. Understand I do not really mean benefit - it caused him a good deal of needed difficulty in his life (we later heard from friends in the school considering similar timings of maximum inconvenience for him!!!) ..........
 
In the systems I have worked in, 60% was a D-. Very minor point, but not an F. Generally that comes out as (minor variations possible)app. 61- 63 is D-,
64-67 or 8 is D and 68 or 9 is D+. Same for each higher grade. F has the biggest range with 0 - 59. Note: most parents expect the ABCDF thing so most public schools give them that, BUT for college placement and such the actual points seem preferred.

True, but the practical difference between saying 59.9999999% of all potential scores are Fs and saying 60% are Fs is pretty negligible ;)
 
Is this what you mean by the "many discussions"?

And this one, although I had thought there was more discussion to it.
In our school, and moving to all in the county, one of the requirements was all students in a specific course were required to take the same test and teachers could not modify the grade in any way from what the computer gave it - unless they could show that no correct answer choice was given. To the best of my knowledge that never occurred at our school. Since the admins had full access to all the data there was no way to do such - and repeating the test was not possible since every student had seen all the questions the first time.

You and I have different ideas about mathematics.
I have an idea of mathematics that actually involves calculating things instead of just making sweeping statements that involve a number somewhere among the words.
 
Agreed. <- The rest of this post I don't understand ->
It sounds like you left the school system because you got fed up with all the bureaucratic meddling. That's the reason that I left.

There are a variety of teaching methods that work and teachers are trained to teach and assess students. They also share experiences with each other and improve that way. Unfortunately, desk bound bureaucrats who have never spent one second in front of a class room think that they know better than all the teachers put together. I ultimately found that I was spending more time filling out forms and complying with other bureaucratic requirements than I spent teaching and assessing students. That's when I said "enough".
 
It sounds like you left the school system because you got fed up with all the bureaucratic meddling. That's the reason that I left.There are a variety of teaching methods that work and teachers are trained to teach and assess students. They also share experiences with each other and improve that way. Unfortunately, desk bound bureaucrats who have never spent one second in front of a class room think that they know better than all the teachers put together. I ultimately found that I was spending more time filling out forms and complying with other bureaucratic requirements than I spent teaching and assessing students. That's when I said "enough".

Essentially yes. In all the systems I worked in, the required method (no matter how flexible - which the last (Marzano) was not at all) was specified by the state or (when options existed/were allowed) the county (Davidson in Tennessee, Hillsborough, Pasco and Orange in Florida and changed every few years depending on which hot new one was currently preferred (there is pretty much a 27-30 year changeover but it occurs in 7 to 10 year cycles - this works out in a weird way) and how long it took to forget the current one had come and gone previously (and why) in a system).As to related, one of my most pleasant times was a three day presentation in Pasco of ways for working better with and getting better results from troubled/troublesome students. The gentleman who developed the program and manual and tapes for the program was amazingly adept at never giving sources/studies/citings for stats, etc. and so on the last day as he was speaking about ways of passing and selecting materials he asked if any of us had suggestions. With full assumptive knowledge (based on his lack of the previously noted) I raised my hand and asked if he could suggest ways the book Cultural Literacy (big! then) could be used to help the students. 15-20 blank seconds passed and he finally spoke. Making it dead certain he had not only not read the book but was unfamiliar with it's existence. Those of us who had read it now new for certain he had made up pretty much all of what he had been giving us over the three days. The discussions among us at lunch and on leaving in the mid afternoon were not positive. (for him - we were all fine)!!!


Oddly, some months earlier (I was one of the media specialists at the time) our gifted teacher was doing really dumb stuff with his class based on the book. I happened upon them as he finished giving the assignment which in essence was list the Patriarchs of the Jewish People which were listed in the book. I asked why? casually and he responded - Oh, well that is something that is part of our cultural literacy. I quietly asked one of the students what a patriarch was. No answer. I quietly also pointed out to the gifted teacher why making lists by copying from the book was not actually the idea of the book but more things the teacher should be covering in some more informational way. We had one of those gifted teachers that wasn't and (honest) one of those SLD teachers who was. The SLD person was to be sent students who needed help on taking the tests in science )or other subjects. She at first requested an answer sheet so she could check the tests and then send them to us. Knowing enough about her to guess and finding we were right, (The SLD students all had perfect scores on the first test done that way). Next test we sent her a key where every answer was wrong. Amazingly every student failed exactly the same way. We then had one of the other SLD teachers have a little discussion with her suggesting she would no longer get such a sheet and it would be wise not to "help" the students get the actual answer, just help them with vocabulary and math - as she was supposed to do. We did allow the kids to redo the tests as it was not their fault.
 
Ridiculous. An effective education system is one which accomodates students of all grades.

Could you A) expand on that and B) let us know to which post you are responding.
to.

For example define grades in a way that explains what you are accommodating such as: the grades on a test or in a class, the grades roughly attached to a student's age. the capabilities, not likely, but possible, of the student???
 
By the by, if you click the quote box on the bottom right for the post you are referring to then that post joins a new box and you simply write your question/comments after the quoted part.
 
If you can get 50% for doing absolutely nothing then why bother attending at all?
Here's another way to look at it: The school receives funding just for the kid showing up. Showing up is important in life, so maybe that should be part of the grade. It probably should not be a full 50 percent, but it were, the student would still have do do some work to get a D. Once they figure out they can't possibly pass they give up and/or become behavioral challenges, which can sometimes become detrimental to the class as a whole.
 
Understand I do not really mean benefit - it caused him a good deal of needed difficulty in his life (we later heard from friends in the school considering similar timings of maximum inconvenience for him!!!) ..........

I'm tempted to do this now, but it bugs me to bail on the kids. They'd be sad because sometimes I give them Jolly Ranchers.

Have you ever been reading Marzano and see him cite as a reference ... Marzano?? It seems to me there is a lot of bloviating in education "research" but relatively few quantitative studies on best teaching practices. John Dewey decided the Soviet system of education was better that the U.S. system. Only problem was school was not in session when Dewey visited.
 
I'm tempted to do this now, but it bugs me to bail on the kids. They'd be sad because sometimes I give them Jolly Ranchers.

Have you ever been reading Marzano and see him cite as a reference ... Marzano?? It seems to me there is a lot of bloviating in education "research" but relatively few quantitative studies on best teaching practices. John Dewey decided the Soviet system of education was better that the U.S. system. Only problem was school was not in session when Dewey visited.

Don't know about Soviet eduication system but Czech system was one of the best. Producing very good results. Sadly, was...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trends_in_International_Mathematics_and_Science_Study#Top_10_countries_by_subject_and_year

(We thought a lot of studetns from Africa and Middle East - iran, Iran, Egyptians,...)
 
I'm tempted to do this now, but it bugs me to bail on the kids. They'd be sad because sometimes I give them Jolly Ranchers.

Have you ever been reading Marzano and see him cite as a reference ... Marzano?? It seems to me there is a lot of bloviating in education "research" but relatively few quantitative studies on best teaching practices. John Dewey decided the Soviet system of education was better that the U.S. system. Only problem was school was not in session when Dewey visited.

In reality it is functionally impossible to reasonably (from a scientific and statistical base) do that kind of testing of a new/"new" way of presenting/teaching material to/with students as getting permissions in a variety of schools/districts to have some continue with the current systems and others stay with the old (necessary for a valid study) would automatically give parents a complaint basis if their child was not getting good grades - they could blame if their child wasn't in the new or if their child wasn't getting the known version. So, the new systems (most of which are actually everything old is new again structures/methods) are only tested in a few classrooms and can be attributed to the teachers carefully selected to apply them based on their general higher results with their students rather than any differences in methods used. No studies I have seen or heard of have shown to be statistically better than any other systems generally tried with the minor exception that in some cases with a particular system change with students who are doing their best on what is required for a good grade the B level students sometimes tend to drift down to C or D and the C and D students sometimes tend to move up to B or higher C due apparently to being used to the previous system and the effects of the change from it. There tends to be little effect on the A and F students though. This has a high likelihood of being related to teaching and learning styles and their relationships that depend on the method being used and the comfort of teacher and students with that method.
 
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Also, if you can hang on a bit and are helping do it as long as you can be comfortable with it - but no longer!! Your health and sanity are important too!!!!!!!
 
I'm tempted to do this now, but it bugs me to bail on the kids. They'd be sad because sometimes I give them Jolly Ranchers.

Have you ever been reading Marzano and see him cite as a reference ... Marzano?? It seems to me there is a lot of bloviating in education "research" but relatively few quantitative studies on best teaching practices. John Dewey decided the Soviet system of education was better that the U.S. system. Only problem was school was not in session when Dewey visited.

No, though he may well have. My wife (very good at this) figured out quickly what he had "borrowed" and from who (making the AP I mentioned very unhappy) and I did other research verification related. Leave some Jolly Ranchers for them to remember you by and let them know you will miss them!!!
 
It's simple: Either students knows or not.
That depends on what the goal is. In the real world you need to know your stuff, so a test that determines whether or not you know your stuff is appropriate.

But the purpose of school isn't to train people for jobs, it's to sort out the wheat from the chaff. So it's no good having a test that everybody passes. You need a test that fails everyone but the best and brightest - a test that nobody gets 100% on because if that happens you don't know how good they really are.
 
Here's another way to look at it: The school receives funding just for the kid showing up. Showing up is important in life, so maybe that should be part of the grade. It probably should not be a full 50 percent, but it were, the student would still have do do some work to get a D. Once they figure out they can't possibly pass they give up and/or become behavioral challenges, which can sometimes become detrimental to the class as a whole.
This is just a typical "can't discipline them - can't fail them" mentality that is doing kids a grave disservice.

Students should not be in a course that they can't possibly pass. Those that can should be afforded every opportunity to do so but they still need to do the work. Grades for nothing penalizes those who are prepared to make the effort.
 
That depends on what the goal is. In the real world you need to know your stuff, so a test that determines whether or not you know your stuff is appropriate.

But the purpose of school isn't to train people for jobs, it's to sort out the wheat from the chaff. So it's no good having a test that everybody passes. You need a test that fails everyone but the best and brightest - a test that nobody gets 100% on because if that happens you don't know how good they really are.

What school system (or whose) are you talking about?

ETA: Goal should be knowing what and how. That's goal here.
 
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What school system (or whose) are you talking about?

ETA: Goal should be knowing what and how. That's goal here.

You seem to think that the purpose of school is to acquire facts.

In Math, Physics, CS, etc. you can "know" and understand all the concepts and equations, and still not be able to apply them or to apply them mistake-free at some level of difficulty or in a reasonable amount of time. Knowing how to write and having a good vocabulary doesn't mean you can sit down and equal the works of a great writer. Grades are an incentive to improve your abilities, not just meet a minimum standard. If there is no reasonable distribution of grades, that purpose is hindered.
 
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You seem to think that the purpose of school is to acquire facts.

In Math, Physics, CS, etc. you can "know" and understand all the concepts and equations, and still not be able to apply them or to apply them mistake-free at some level of difficulty or in a reasonable amount of time. Knowing how to write and having a good vocabulary doesn't mean you can sit down and equal the works of a great writer. Grades are an incentive to improve your abilities, not just meet a minimum standard. If there is no reasonable distribution of grades, that purpose is hindered.

What the hell is still with bloody distribution. It should not be goal. It shouldn't be informing decisions about education process. (With few exceptions, obviously - there are few cases where it can alert to problems)

(Anyway, maybe I was too terse with "what and how"...)
 
Students should not be in a course that they can't possibly pass. Those that can should be afforded every opportunity to do so but they still need to do the work. Grades for nothing penalizes those who are prepared to make the effort.

You make it sound like they've got a choice in the matter.
 
Only somebody who is completely insane would compel students to take a course that they couldn't possibly pass.

:confused: I'm not tracking you here. Pretty much all of elementary school is compulsory, and there are only a handful of elective classes through middle and high school in the US. 4th graders don't get much choice about what classes they take.
 
Only somebody who is completely insane would compel students to take a course that they couldn't possibly pass.

Freshman algebra is required by law in my state.

I had a longer answer but my phone ate it.

I was wondering today if it would make more sense to have freshman geometry followed by Algebra 1 and 2.

In my state, kids have to be in school until age 16; schools have to at least try to educate them up to age 22. However things "should be," it's not current law; certain courses are mandated for certain age groups.
 
You make it sound like they've got a choice in the matter.

And in some cases their parents have the choice - as in they use their influence with "the board" to get their little loves into classes like AP, Advanced. and popular for the college/university they WILL be going to! Because the board tells the principal (unprincipled of course) and he/she tells the counsellors and suddenly their little loves are in a class or 2 or 3 they do not have any background or skill set for and, well............... We ( OC Fl) saw a lot of that - made upper level sciences really slow when a lot of the students had barely passed Algebra. Makes Chem and Physics much fun!!!!

It should be no surprise that it also has effects on the students who did do well when they are identified as coming from a school found to be sending into colleges students who were not actually ready for college level work.


Another problem was that students who were known to not be able to read at above fourth/fifth grade and or do math well (very low test scores on tests done annually) were still moved on to middle/high school and put into basically regular classes. Doesn't work real well. And they could not read the texts (science which I taught) to any real degree. And we knew the admins and all the way up to the board knew the same thing - but on it went. Bad for those students and worse for the students who could have moved through the material better and faster. Yes, we had all sorts of special materials , methods and programs, but for reading the problem (known and show is that if they cannot read for learning by fourth grade it is near certain they never will be able to).
 
More precisely, if the child cannot read reasonably well (grade level) by 4th grade, they will likely never be able to read well enough to read for learning. You can easily Google or Dogpile that if you think I am making it up!!!!
 
if the child cannot read reasonably well (grade level) by 4th grade, they will likely never be able to read well enough to read for learning.
Perhaps not 'never', but if they fail this essential skill they won't be able to advance while at school.

My brother and I went to the same schools, but since he is 18 months younger than me we attended different classes. I was at top of the school, he was at the bottom - a complete failure that all the teachers gave up on as he could barely write his own name. At 15 he quit school to work on the farm, taught himself to read and write, worked hard and advanced to the point where he is now earning 5 times more than me.

School didn't just fail my brother, by forcing him to attend when he didn't have the skills to learn it actively held him back from advancing. For my brother, school was little more than a prison - perhaps in some respects even worse (at least in prison you don't get called a lazy little **** for not understanding algebra).
 
:confused: I'm not tracking you here. Pretty much all of elementary school is compulsory, and there are only a handful of elective classes through middle and high school in the US. 4th graders don't get much choice about what classes they take.
You make the mistake of assuming that bureaucrats are sane. :eek:

In ancient times, students who failed to meet the requirements of a course would have been expected to repeat it - even repeat an entire year if necessary.

In later times, students were streamed according to ability so that everybody did lessons at a level that they could reasonably have expected to pass.

Education has become a lot more complicated since then. There seems to be a presumption that everybody could master the General theory of relativity if taught the "right way".
 
You make the mistake of assuming that bureaucrats are sane. :eek:
I don't really see how I'm making that mistake; I'm pretty sure I think most bureaucrats are idiots, pretty much all the time. Mostly, I don't see how that's relevant to this particular exchange. What am I missing?

In ancient times, students who failed to meet the requirements of a course would have been expected to repeat it - even repeat an entire year if necessary.

In later times, students were streamed according to ability so that everybody did lessons at a level that they could reasonably have expected to pass.

Education has become a lot more complicated since then. There seems to be a presumption that everybody could master the General theory of relativity if taught the "right way".
Are you suggesting that we roll back the clock to the early 1800s or whatever? Sorry psion, I'm just not really grokking where this comes in to play. We have a curriculum that the broad range of humans are expected to be able to do. If a child has reduced ability, they are hypothetically identified and their specific needs are addressed... but the vast majority of "normal" kids should be able to do these things. There's no choice given to them in that respect and most children have little to no control over their curriculum.

Honestly, I think the number of children who cannot possibly pass primary and secondary school is incredibly small.

But it's also somewhat irrelevant. A kid who screws up and doesn't do a few assignments doesn't necessarily fall into the incapable category. But the zero associated with those assignments may very well make it mathematically impossible for them to pass the class, regardless of whether they are mentally capable or not. That's the crux of the problem in this discussion. It's not a matter of the child's capability; it's a matter of the math being stacked against them in a pretty substantial fashion.
 
Are you suggesting that we roll back the clock to the early 1800s or whatever? Sorry psion, I'm just not really grokking where this comes in to play. We have a curriculum that the broad range of humans are expected to be able to do. If a child has reduced ability, they are hypothetically identified and their specific needs are addressed... but the vast majority of "normal" kids should be able to do these things. There's no choice given to them in that respect and most children have little to no control over their curriculum.

Honestly, I think the number of children who cannot possibly pass primary and secondary school is incredibly small.
I was thinking more of the 1950s or 1960s but the exact time period doesn't matter since 15 year olds can't just leave school and get a job anymore so the education system needs to cater for students of lower ability as well.

Regardless, you have shifted the goal posts. From saying that students don't have a choice about taking courses they can't pass you are now saying that they all can pass.

But it's also somewhat irrelevant. A kid who screws up and doesn't do a few assignments doesn't necessarily fall into the incapable category. But the zero associated with those assignments may very well make it mathematically impossible for them to pass the class, regardless of whether they are mentally capable or not. That's the crux of the problem in this discussion. It's not a matter of the child's capability; it's a matter of the math being stacked against them in a pretty substantial fashion.
As long as you refuse to explain why you think that marks for nothing are better than giving a student a second chance all you are doing is repeating yourself.
 
I was thinking more of the 1950s or 1960s but the exact time period doesn't matter since 15 year olds can't just leave school and get a job anymore so the education system needs to cater for students of lower ability as well.

Regardless, you have shifted the goal posts. From saying that students don't have a choice about taking courses they can't pass you are now saying that they all can pass.
I said neither of those thing, please stop exaggerating.

Furthermore, you're conflating the scenarios.

Kids have little choice in which classes they take: the curriculum is set without their knowledge or opinion. Older kids have somewhat more choice, in the form of electives, but a substantial portion of their curriculum is compulsory.

The majority of kids should be able to pass primary and secondary curricula. The material is general knowledge and unless there is a disability invovled, very few kids lack the capability to pass those classes.

Those are both true positions, and neither contradicts the other. The goal posts haven't shifted at all.

As long as you refuse to explain why you think that marks for nothing are better than giving a student a second chance all you are doing is repeating yourself.

Ooooh, excellent use of some weasely framing there! Kudos! Nicely done! You're only half a step away from fully realizing a "when did you stop beating your wife" scenario! Keep it up, you'll get there soon!

I haven't refused to explain anything. You not receiving an explanation that you can easily poke holes in doesn't equate to me refusing anything at all.
 
I don't really see how I'm making that mistake; I'm pretty sure I think most bureaucrats are idiots, pretty much all the time. Mostly, I don't see how that's relevant to this particular exchange. What am I missing?


Are you suggesting that we roll back the clock to the early 1800s or whatever? Sorry psion, I'm just not really grokking where this comes in to play. We have a curriculum that the broad range of humans are expected to be able to do. If a child has reduced ability, they are hypothetically identified and their specific needs are addressed... but the vast majority of "normal" kids should be able to do these things. There's no choice given to them in that respect and most children have little to no control over their curriculum.

Honestly, I think the number of children who cannot possibly pass primary and secondary school is incredibly small.

But it's also somewhat irrelevant. A kid who screws up and doesn't do a few assignments doesn't necessarily fall into the incapable category. But the zero associated with those assignments may very well make it mathematically impossible for them to pass the class, regardless of whether they are mentally capable or not. That's the crux of the problem in this discussion. It's not a matter of the child's capability; it's a matter of the math being stacked against them in a pretty substantial fashion.

Why so late?
John Amos Comenius still have some things to say today...
 
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