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An Exercise In Disproving Evolution

barehl

Master Poster
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Let's see if we can use Creationist logic to disprove Evolutionary Theory. Let's start with a common assertion:

Intermediate forms cannot exist because they wouldn't be adapted. Adaptations are only useful in their final form.

1.) Elephants have fully adapted, long trunks. You won't find anything like an elephant with a short trunk.



2.) Giraffes have fully adapted long necks. You won't find anything like a giraffe with a short neck.



3.) Fish are adapted for swimming; salamanders are adapted for walking on land. You won't find anything like a half-fish half-salamander. Let's say it had one pair of legs and a tail how, could it move? If it still had gills, how could it breathe?



4.) Scientists claim that squid evolved from mollusks like snails. Yet, you won't find anything halfway in between a snail and a squid. Imagine a snail with tentacles.



5.) Well, fine, there are animals like this now. But, what evidence is there that they ever existed in the past?



6.) What about trilobites? Scientists claim that these were everywhere in the fossil record. Why aren't they still around?



7.) Well, maybe it works for something simple but it couldn't work for anything complex. There's no way that an animal could gradually develop the ability to fly.



8.) That's only a minor adaptation. Frogs jump and have webbed feet. This one just has bigger webbed feet so that it can go farther.



9.) That couldn't have evolved. There is no intermediate form.



10.) That doesn't count. Lizards have legs; snakes don't. There is nothing in between a lizard and a snake.



11.) You still haven't come up with a crocoduck.

http://s2.djyimg.com/n3/eet-content/uploads/2014/02/Shoebill-4.jpg



Edited by zooterkin: 
Changed hotlinks to normal links. Please see Rule 5.
 
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I didn't look at the spoilers because I'm waiting for the movie to come out. I hope they cast Kevin Sorbo again.
 
Unfortunately none of these are intermediate forms in the way that creationists would accept (at least not the creationists I've debated this with). They're also not intermediate forms in the sense that biologists use the term (with the possible exception of the okapi). And if a creationist asked you why trilobites aren't around any longer, and you showed pictures of horseshoe crabs, the creationist would be justified to laugh at you.
 
Unfortunately none of these are intermediate forms in the way that creationists would accept (at least not the creationists I've debated this with)...

If those are the same creationists that argue that radionuclides decayed at different rates in the past (faster) then we already know there's nothing they'd actually accept that gave evidence against their view, anyway.
 
Unfortunately none of these are intermediate forms in the way that creationists would accept (at least not the creationists I've debated this with). They're also not intermediate forms in the sense that biologists use the term (with the possible exception of the okapi). And if a creationist asked you why trilobites aren't around any longer, and you showed pictures of horseshoe crabs, the creationist would be justified to laugh at you.

Don't care about why the creationist would not accept the claim of intermediates, but why wouldn't biologists? And since horseshoe crabs are likely the closest extant relatives of trilobites why would a creationist be justified in laughing?
 
If those are the same creationists that argue that radionuclides decayed at different rates in the past (faster) then we already know there's nothing they'd actually accept that gave evidence against their view, anyway.

No, these are the same kind of creationists as Kleinman, who was very active here around... 2009, maybe? Creationists that are almost "professional" in their creationism, and also have a fairly good understanding of the animal world. They still wouldn't accept anything as evidence against their ideology, but would at least know enough to dismiss most of these examples with justifications that would actually hold up.

Don't care about why the creationist would not accept the claim of intermediates, but why wouldn't biologists?

Because these are not intermediates between what the purported extreme points are.

If anyone, either creationist or sane, were to ask me if I could show any evidence of trunk-evolution in elephants (implicitly going from non-trunked mammals to present-day elephants), and I showed a picture of a tapir, this would prove absolutely nothing. The fact that short trunks exist in present-day members of distant relatives of elephants doesn't prove that there were ever short-trunked elephant-like ancestors of elephants. Showing that short trunks have evolved from non-trunks in one group (which I assume is the case with the tapirs and the reason a picture of one is included) does not in any way establish that anything similar happened in the evolutionary lineage that lead to extant elephants. They may have had long trunks since they were rat-like, or since before they even had fur, or been descended from fish-like organisms with long trunks.

And since horseshoe crabs are likely the closest extant relatives of trilobites why would a creationist be justified in laughing?

The imagined creationist asks, "Why aren't trilobites around?" and is shown a picture of something extant that is not a trilobite. If the creationist knowns or can google this information, he/she is justified at laughing at someone who evidently believes that things that look the same are the same. Whether or not they are close relatives is irrelevant to the question the creationist has asked.
 
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@Kotatsu

You seem to be missing the points.

Re "extrement points". The animals presented prove that intermediate forms can be useful. No one claimed they were the intermediate form or that even that the intermediate forms looked like those creatures. They show that intermediates are useful and actually exist.

Re "trilobites". No one said horseshoe crabs are trilobites. But they demonstrates the valid answer to the question. Surely you can figure out what that is. And if someone were actually answering a creationist they wouldn't stop at just showing them the photo without explanation.
 
Re "extrement points". The animals presented prove that intermediate forms can be useful. No one claimed they were the intermediate form or that even that the intermediate forms looked like those creatures. They show that intermediates are useful and actually exist.

They prove nothing of the sort, as these animals are not intermediate forms between the extreme points.

The short trunk of a tapir shows precisely this: for tapirs short trunks are useful and actually exist. Is the same true for elephants? In the context of the present discussion we still have no idea. The fact that short trunks are useful and actually exist in one evolutionary lineage does not in any way show that the same is true for a different lineage. In these cases, the imagined creationist of the OP is actually perfectly justified in saying that the photos show organisms in their "final form", and dismiss these examples immediately, as I am doing here (despite not being a creationist).

It is also worth noting that all the animals presented are extant, meaning that they are only intermediate forms in a very precise technical sense, but they are not actually intermediate forms (yet), and none of their morphological adaptations are actually intermediate (yet).

Re "trilobites". No one said horseshoe crabs are trilobites. But they demonstrates the valid answer to the question. Surely you can figure out what that is. And if someone were actually answering a creationist they wouldn't stop at just showing them the photo without explanation.

The imaginary creationist in the OP asks exactly:
6.) What about trilobites? Scientists claim that these were everywhere in the fossil record. Why aren't they still around?

The only valid answer to this question is: they went extinct in the Permian. The reason for this is apparently not fully known yet, but they have left no living descendants.

Any answer that involves showing convergent evolution of relatives of trilobites is not a valid answer to the creationist's question, except in the case where the horseshoe crabs are included to somehow imply that these organisms out-competed the trilobites, and that is why the trilobites are not around, that would be a valid answer given that this scenario can be supported by palaeontological evidence.

But please feel free to explain how the picture of a horseshoe crab is supposed to counter the imagined creationist's question about why trilobites are no longer around.
 
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Kotatsu, welcome to the wonderful world of questioning JREF skeptical dogma. The logic is as follows: Creationists are wrong, therefore their arguments are wrong, therefore all we need do is find ways to prove them wrong. It's dogmatic nonsense under the guise of rationality.

For example: showing an extant animal as proof that an extinct animal is still around is on the same intellectual level as "If humans evolved from monkeys, why are theres till monkeys?" The honest answer is that we don't know exactly why trilobites went extinct. People are working on that. We know that the end-Permian mass extinctions were, in agregate, the worst ecological catastrophy the world has ever faced, but the specific mechanisms for killing that particular group are simply not known. Showing a completely different animal as an answer to this question can only be justified by an ignorance of biology or an unwillingness to accept basic facts.

It's the same with showing a cobra's neck flaps as an intermediate form for something in an entirely different taxa. Such an argument is akin to someone saying "Those people can't be your grandparents, your parents would have to be your kids" and you saying "Look at this--I have similar ear lobes with this entirely different couple from another country!" At best, such is an example of lizards more easily evolving certain traits than others; at worst, it's a serious non-sequitor that illustrates a deep failure to understand biology.

The others are just as bad, if not worse.

RecoveringYuppy said:
Re "extrement points". The animals presented prove that intermediate forms can be useful.
I would love to see how a complete failure to provide a single intermediate form in any way demonstrates that intermediate forms can be useful.

The worst part is, it's lazy. There are ample intermediate forms in the fossil record and in extant species to use. Ring species are pretty much all intermediate forms (excepting only the end populations). Animal husbandry provides additional well-documented intermediate forms. While we don't have the fossils at the base of hte Tree of Life yet, we have ample fossils for Mammalia, Dinosauria, Molluska, Decapoda, and numerous other taxa showing intermediate forms of taxa of various taxonomic ranks, including between two species. This stuff isn't hard to come by.

Re "trilobites". No one said horseshoe crabs are trilobites. But they demonstrates the valid answer to the question.
Not even a little. The question is "Why is such an apparently successful group not around anymore?" NO living animal AT ALL can provide such an answer, unless that animal directly caused the extinction (showing a picture of humans answers "Why are there no dodo birds?", but that's about it). The only valid way to examine these questions is to look at why the animal went extinct; looking for modern relatives in no way even comes close to pretending to answer the question.

To be fair, though, Kotatsu did miss the point. The point had nothing to do with scientific or even rational answers to the questions. It's mockery, pure and simple, and often at the expense of scientific accuracy. If this were in the Humor subforum, yeah, it'd be mildly amusing and it wouldn't be so wildly inappropriate. I'd have chuckled. But this is a SCIENCE subforum, and therefore it is incumbant upon us to present at least a semblance of rational analysis. Presenting these answers under the guise of science seriously undermines the credibility of science in the eyes of....well, anyone sane.
 
The short trunk of a tapir shows precisely this: for tapirs short trunks are useful and actually exist.
So you got the point. And apparently are not appreciating the joke.
But please feel free to explain how the picture of a horseshoe crab is supposed to counter the imagined creationist's question about why trilobites are no longer around.
I hinted at it earlier and you just gave me the full reason. But the picture isn't meant to counter a creationist argument. It's a bit of a joke with a fair amount of the true answer in it.
 
I would love to see how a complete failure to provide a single intermediate form in any way demonstrates that intermediate forms can be useful.
They, or at least many of them, are intermediate in exactly the way many creationists claim is impossible.

These are meant to address creationists claims about intermediates. And, hint, there is a bit of a joking nature to the OP.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
So you got the point.
There is so much wrong with this....

First, all it proves is that a short truck CAN BE useful. It in no way proves that a short trunk WAS useful. It can't--extant tapirs aren't part of elephant evolution, for the same reason that you're not part of your grandparent's ancestry.

Second, it doesn't demonstrate that the advantages conveyed to tapirs by virtue of short trunks in any way relate to elephants. It could very easily be convergent evolution.

IF we could prove that tapirs and elephants share trunks due to their common ancestor having a trunk, we MIGHT be able to say tapirs are an intermediate form (I'm not aware of any such proof, but I'm always willing to learn). However, this is complicated by the fact that tapirs maintained a more primative state while elephants did not. Also, you've sort of left out that whole "prove that this is a shared ancestrial trait" thing.

It's a bit of a joke with a fair amount of the true answer in it.
There is NO truth to it, merely perpetuations of gross misunderstandings.

But thank you for admitting that this thread is humor, and nothing to do with science. As humor, it falls flat for me, but I acknowledge that humor is personal. The important thing is to present it AS humor, and presenting it in this forum is the wrong way to do that.
 
They, or at least many of them, are intermediate in exactly the way many creationists claim is impossible.

No, they're not--they're superficially similar creatures that have little to no bearing on the questions at hand. Some of them are from wildly different taxa, and clearly demonstrate that the OP's understanding of phylogeny is on par with the Creationists'.

ETA: As for the "hint" nonsense, if you're going to be sarcasting and demeaning, you really should bother to read what was stated. Had you done so, you'd see that I acknowledged the attempt at humor. I also explained why it fails.
 
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So you got the point.

A got a point.

I also have met precisely the imagined creationist argument so many times that I know that the answer given in the OP would not be satisfactory to any of the more refined creationists, and that it is a biologically and evolutionarily invalid response.

And apparently are not appreciating the joke.

I see no reason to apologise for criticizing poor arguments against creationism, as evolutionary biology is my profession, and debating creationists is something I do for "fun and recreation" as often as I get the opportunity (though curiously less since I moved to the US). When counter-arguments are presented to creationist claims that are essentially as crappy as the creationist claim themselves, this cheapens my standpoint in the matter, without adding anything relevant to the discussion.

So yes, I do not feel any reason not to speak out when crap arguments for evolution are given, as these are still crap arguments.

I hinted at it earlier and you just gave me the full reason.

The picture was included because horseshoe crabs drove trilobites to extinction? If this is what you and the OP meant, this is an argument that transcends the present knowledge of the Permian extinction, and would require some pretty convincing evidence to be acceptable.

But the picture isn't meant to counter a creationist argument. It's a bit of a joke with a fair amount of the true answer in it.

What precisely is the "fair amount of true answer" in the pictures the OP posted?

As I said, the okapi is the only one that is even remotely acceptable, and I still have reservations about that one. The others have no truth whatsoever in them compared to what the imagined creationist is asking, as far as I can see. Again, as you apparently see the truth in these examples and I do not, I must ask you to explain them to me.

Kotatsu, welcome to the wonderful world of questioning JREF skeptical dogma. The logic is as follows: Creationists are wrong, therefore their arguments are wrong, therefore all we need do is find ways to prove them wrong. It's dogmatic nonsense under the guise of rationality.

Which is the main reason why for most of the time, I don't read this forum any longer. There is no knowledge to be gained here, and there is no knowledge accepted either.
 
They, or at least many of them, are intermediate in exactly the way many creationists claim is impossible.

No, they don't. That is precisely the problem. Creationists who use arguments of the type "Character X in an extant organism could not possible have evolved, because character Y, which is a necessary prerequisite of X, would not have been useful" or the "What use is half a wing?" type of arguments are not looking for examples of what other "fully formed" organisms with similar characters are using them for. They are looking at a "fully formed" organism with a certain character and asserting that for this lineage, character Y would not have been useful, therefore character X could not have evolved from character Y, therefore the claim that evolution occurred is false.

Here's an example:
1. Extant elephants are "fully formed".
2. Extant elephants have trunks that reach to the ground as well as to the mouth to drink water.
3. Evolutionists claim that elephants are descended from non-trunked forms.
4. Therefore, under an evolutionary scenario there must have been an organism that is ancestral to extant elephants that had an intermediate trunk.
5. This trunk would not have been able to reach both the ground and the mouth.
6. Therefore, that elephant would not have been able to drink water, unless all other characters (leg size, for instance) were changed simultaneously.
7. Water is essential to all mammals, and there is not reason to believe that ancestral elephants didn't need water.
8. Therefore, if the ancestral elephants couldn't get water through their trunks, only two alternatives exist:
8a. All other relevant morphological characters changed simultaneously.
8b. Elephants always had long trunks that could reach both the ground and the mouth, and evolution never happened.
9. As the chances of 8a being true are laughably small [insert some bogus calculation of how unlikely it is that the correct mutations all happen at the same time, as well as half-understood arguments about "complexity"], 8b must be the correct answer.
10. Therefore evolution is a lie.

This is of course a simplification (as well as being more technical than how these arguments are generally presented). Nevertheless, it shows precisely where the differences between the arguments that are actually made by creationists, and the argument that the OP (and you) imply that creationists do, lie. It also shows precisely why none of the examples of the OP would be counter-arguments to those of the creationists. Showing examples of distantly related taxa having characters that are similar to the intermediate forms implied by evolutionary theory is not satisfactory for either these creationists, nor should they be for people who profess that they understand evolutionary theory well enough to state with some certainty that this theory accurately accounts for the biodiversity of Earth.

The argument outlined above, when presented by actual creationists, fail because they have no understanding of how evolution works. Of course 8a is the most likely scenario, and is the one supported by all manner of evidence. The argument you and the OP imply is a separate one, and one I don't really know what the structure of is.

ETA: The main difference between actual creationist arguments and the arguments presented by you and the OP is, curiously, that the actual creationists take evolutionary theory into account, whereas you don't.

These are meant to address creationists claims about intermediates. And, hint, there is a bit of a joking nature to the OP.

I largely don't care if it is presented as a joke or not. The counter-arguments are crap either way.
 
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Kotatsu and Dinwar, your objections are based on a professional (and reality) based understanding of evolution. not the presumed reality of creationists. These do a good, not perfect, job at addressing what they claim to address creationist objections to evolution.

A got a point.
What precisely is the "fair amount of true answer" in the pictures the OP posted?
They answer the objection above the picture.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Kotatsu and Dinwar, your objections are based on a professional (and reality) based understanding of evolution. not the presumed reality of creationists.
Since we're not objecting to the tactics, arguments, or anything else from Creationists, this is about as irrelevant as the OP's pictures.

These do a good, not perfect, job at addressing what they claim to address creationist objections to evolution.
THEY ARE LIES. I'm sorry, but lies CANNOT do a good job of addressing ANYTHING in a scientific context. They can be humorous, sure, particularly as satire (in fact, the concept of a lie breaks down in such contexts)--but then this should go in the "Humor" subforum, not the "Science" subforum.

Since it's in the "Science" subforum, it is incumbant upon us to examine it from a scientific perspective. From that perspective, every one of these photos fails pretty miserably.
 
I fail to see how these are lies. And I fail to see how they don't address what they claim to address.

And other than this being on the science forum, which seems appropriate, these don't claim to be a scientific context. The OP is pretty darn explicit about this being a creationist context.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
I fail to see how these are lies. And I fail to see how they don't address what they claim to address.
Kotatsu pointed itt out in detail. Your failure to see is nothing more than willful ignorance at this point.

And other than this being on the science forum, which seems appropriate, these don't claim to be a scientific context. The OP is pretty darn explicit about this being a creationist context.
You know nothing about Creationism, do you? Here's a hint: there is a tradition of scientifically valid Creationist arguments.
 
Kotatsu and Dinwar, your objections are based on a professional (and reality) based understanding of evolution. not the presumed reality of creationists.

My objections are based on about 10 years of experience of actually debating this kind of arguments with actual creationists; I know that Dinwar has a similar experience. They are based on the fact that the creationist arguments of this sort are not as simplistic in their structure as what you and the OP assume, and therefore cannot be dismissed or countered by the sort of simplistic answers that are found in the OP.

They answer the objection above the picture.

Really? Well, let's have a look at these examples, then:

1. "Elephants have fully adapted, long trunks. You won't find anything like an elephant with a short trunk." Counter: a tapir.

As this objection to evolutionary theory is phrased, the simplest way to dismiss the counter of the OP is to state that the tapir is not "anything like an elephant". It is a very different kind of animal, and is, above all, "fully formed", meaning that whatever uses they have for their trunks has no bearing at all on what an ancestral elephant would have been able to do. As we're apparently involved in a discussion between a creationist child and an evolutionist child, simply pointing out that the tapir doesn't have tusks and large ears would be enough to dismiss the counter. For more sophisticated debates, there is no end to the amount of dissimilarities -- even excluding the objections Dinwar and I have outlined here -- between the tapir an an elephant (or its ancestors).
Conclusion: I don't see how any even mildly intelligent creationists wouldn't be able to dismiss this counter.

2. "Giraffes have fully adapted long necks. You won't find anything like a giraffe with a short neck." Counter: okapi.

As I've stated before, this is the only one that comes even close to being an actual counter to the imagined creationist objection. However, the dismissal would be based on the exact same thing as the previous one: this is an extant organism, and therefore "fully formed". It cannot be an example of a "short-necked giraffe" because the objection the creationist has is lodged inside the evolutionary scenario (which is what they seek disprove), and as such, this is not a "short-necked giraffe".
Conclusion: Although this counter comes close, it is also rather easily dismissed by creationists.

3. "Fish are adapted for swimming; salamanders are adapted for walking on land. You won't find anything like a half-fish half-salamander. Let's say it had one pair of legs and a tail how, could it move? If it still had gills, how could it breathe?" Counter: mudskippers.

Even though the scenario outlined is flawed (salamanders are not adapted to walking on land), I don't see how this example would convince creationists. These are "still fish", as they have fins and gills. They also don't have "one pair of legs", they have "one pair of modified fins".
Conclusion: this one also comes close, but is easily dismissed by creationists.

4. "Scientists claim that squid evolved from mollusks like snails. Yet, you won't find anything halfway in between a snail and a squid. Imagine a snail with tentacles." Counter: Nautilus.

This one is among the most ridiculous, as there is nothing in Nautilus that suggests it would be an accepted intermediate between squid and snails, even if we assume the creationist would be converted if any one of these supposed intermediates were shown to be correct. There are lots of different organisms with shells, so having a shell does not imply that you are related or similar to snails at all. Therefore, this is just a squid with a shell, which has no obvious characteristics of a snail (stalked eyes, slimy foot, and so on).
Conclusion: Maybe this would convince some of the most naïve of creationists, but any creationist that has ever read a page of rebuttals of evolutionist claims should have no problems rebutting this one.

5. "Well, fine, there are animals like this now. But, what evidence is there that they ever existed in the past?" Counter: fossil ammonites.

I can't even see how this is a plausible creationist argument. And even if it were, the fact that something exists now and in the past, and looks "essentially the same" is evidence, in their minds, that evolution has not happened, or these organisms would look different after evolutionary time.
Conclusion: This example doesn't even convince as a parody of creationist arguments...

6. "What about trilobites? Scientists claim that these were everywhere in the fossil record. Why aren't they still around?" Counter: horseshoe crabs.

This is by far the most ridiculous one, but not as ridiculous as the arguments presented for its inclusion. The only valid answer to the question the imagined creationist asks, as stated before, is "Because they went extinct and no one presently knows why". To imply, as RY is doing, that they went extinct because the horseshoe crabs out-competed them is inane, and would require extensive evidence to support.
Conclusion: A creationist could counter this example by either showing (based on as accessible a source as WP) that these are not trilobites, or that the evolutionist needs to support their statement that horseshoe crabs drove trilobites to extinction. It is also not an example of an intermediate form even in the stupid sense of creationists!

7-8. "Well, maybe it works for something simple but it couldn't work for anything complex. There's no way that an animal could gradually develop the ability to fly." Counter: flying frog and lizard.

This frog and lizard are not flying, they are gliding. Did the same happen in early birds? If not, this is not an example of the evolution of flying, and the imagined creationist is actually more or less correct when he/she starts his/her next question with "That's only a minor adaptation. Frogs jump and have webbed feet. This one just has bigger webbed feet so that it can go farther." And as we have no way to predict that the descendants of this frog will ever be able to actually fly, the imagined creationist is largely correct. Gliding is not flying. There are no actual extant flying lizards and frogs, so we have no idea if this is actually ever an intermediate between non-flying and flying.
Conclusion: These examples would most likely not hold as counterarguments against anything but the stupidest of creationists.

9. "That couldn't have evolved. There is no intermediate form." Counter: a cobra.

This one is just bizarre. The creationist is supposed to accept as an intermediate between non-flying and flying lizards the neck frills of a cobra? They're in a different part of the body, used for a different thing, and in a different taxon...
Conclusion: This one would not be accepted by creationists.

10. "That doesn't count. Lizards have legs; snakes don't. There is nothing in between a lizard and a snake." Counter: skink.

I fail to see how any creationist could be persuaded to accept a lizard as an intermediate between a lizard and a snake just because the lizard has shorter legs. It still has legs!!!!! How can an intermediate between two taxa have all the distinct characters of one extreme, and none of the other extreme?
Conclusion: This one is just ridiculous, especially considering that there are snakes with pelvic girdles and lizards with no legs and lizards with only one leg pair... the selection of which animal to represent an intermediate is just baffling...

11. "You still haven't come up with a crocoduck." Counter: a shoebill.

You still didn't come up with a crocoduck...
 
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I fail to see how these are lies. And I fail to see how they don't address what they claim to address.

And other than this being on the science forum, which seems appropriate, these don't claim to be a scientific context. The OP is pretty darn explicit about this being a creationist context.

A creationist context is not a context devoid of internal logic. The problem with many (most?) creationist claims is not that they are invalid, it is that they are not sound. The creationist arguments make sense to them, and could have been true. It just so happens that they do not map onto reality.

That is the fundamental reason why the examples offered in the OP are not counters to actual creationist claims, as the OP is not based on an analysis of how these claims work, or why they fail. They are based entirely on the supposition that the creationist is wrong. That is something that is not, and never was, a given. The fact that creationist claims are wrong had to be established by evidence, logic, and the scientific method.
 
Kotatsu pointed itt out in detail. Your failure to see is nothing more than willful ignorance at this point.
Kotatsu didn't demonstrate these to be lies. He demonstrated they aren't argument for evolution. Since they don't claim to be that and are accurate in what they claim to be, they aren't lies.

You know nothing about Creationism, do you? Here's a hint: there is a tradition of scientifically valid Creationist arguments.

And they also have a tradition that doesn't.

My objections are based on about 10 years of experience of actually debating this kind of arguments with actual creationists; I know that Dinwar has a similar experience. They are based on the fact that the creationist arguments of this sort are not as simplistic in their structure as what you and the OP assume, and therefore cannot be dismissed or countered by the sort of simplistic answers that are found in the OP.
I got 22 years. I have seen people advance these exact arguments.

The rest of your post is full of great information. But you seem to be arguing with a point that the OP doesn't make.

To imply, as RY is doing, that they went extinct because the horseshoe crabs out-competed them is inane, and would require extensive evidence to support.
Don't see where I implied that. Certainly don't believe it. I'll try be inane though, sounds like fun.
 
Kotatsu didn't demonstrate these to be lies. He demonstrated they aren't argument for evolution. Since they don't claim to be that and are accurate in what they claim to be, they aren't lies.

I did no such thing. It is obvious that these aren't arguments for evolution, but they are also not arguments for creationism, which is what they claim to be. They are, at best, pastiches of creationist arguments set up to be knocked down as easily as possible.

The rest of your post is full of great information. But you seem to be arguing with a point that the OP doesn't make.

The OP claims to be disproving evolution by using creationist logic, and then doesn't use creationist logic. I object to this.

Don't see where I implied that. Certainly don't believe it. I'll try be inane though, sounds like fun.

Then please substitute some lucidity for your present smug elusiveness. I refer specifically to the following exchange:

And if a creationist asked you why trilobites aren't around any longer, and you showed pictures of horseshoe crabs, the creationist would be justified to laugh at you.
And since horseshoe crabs are likely the closest extant relatives of trilobites why would a creationist be justified in laughing?
The imagined creationist asks, "Why aren't trilobites around?" and is shown a picture of something extant that is not a trilobite. If the creationist knowns or can google this information, he/she is justified at laughing at someone who evidently believes that things that look the same are the same. Whether or not they are close relatives is irrelevant to the question the creationist has asked.
Re "trilobites". No one said horseshoe crabs are trilobites. But they demonstrates the valid answer to the question. Surely you can figure out what that is. And if someone were actually answering a creationist they wouldn't stop at just showing them the photo without explanation.
The imaginary creationist in the OP asks exactly:
The only valid answer to this question is: they went extinct in the Permian. The reason for this is apparently not fully known yet, but they have left no living descendants.
Any answer that involves showing convergent evolution of relatives of trilobites is not a valid answer to the creationist's question, except in the case where the horseshoe crabs are included to somehow imply that these organisms out-competed the trilobites, and that is why the trilobites are not around, that would be a valid answer given that this scenario can be supported by palaeontological evidence.
But please feel free to explain how the picture of a horseshoe crab is supposed to counter the imagined creationist's question about why trilobites are no longer around.
I hinted at it earlier and you just gave me the full reason. But the picture isn't meant to counter a creationist argument. It's a bit of a joke with a fair amount of the true answer in it.
The picture was included because horseshoe crabs drove trilobites to extinction? If this is what you and the OP meant, this is an argument that transcends the present knowledge of the Permian extinction, and would require some pretty convincing evidence to be acceptable.
6. "What about trilobites? Scientists claim that these were everywhere in the fossil record. Why aren't they still around?" Counter: horseshoe crabs.
This is by far the most ridiculous one, but not as ridiculous as the arguments presented for its inclusion. The only valid answer to the question the imagined creationist asks, as stated before, is "Because they went extinct and no one presently knows why". To imply, as RY is doing, that they went extinct because the horseshoe crabs out-competed them is inane, and would require extensive evidence to support.
Conclusion: A creationist could counter this example by either showing (based on as accessible a source as WP) that these are not trilobites, or that the evolutionist needs to support their statement that horseshoe crabs drove trilobites to extinction. It is also not an example of an intermediate form even in the stupid sense of creationists!
Don't see where I implied that. Certainly don't believe it. I'll try be inane though, sounds like fun.

In this exchange, I see no explicit mention, on your part, as to why the horseshoe crabs are included after I dismiss them as irrelevant to the question "Why aren't trilobites around?" as they are not trilobites, unless it is implied that they are responsible for that in some way. Instead, I see you saying that I "just gave you the full reason" to what you hinted at before, immediately following a post in which I stated that:
1. The only valid answer is that they went extinct in the Permian and no one knows why (something I see no hint at in your posts previous to this one);
2. The only exception to this would be if they are implied to be the cause of the extinction of trilobites.

The only "hint" I can find as to their inclusion prior to that post is "But they demonstrates the valid answer to the question." Horseshoe crabs in no way whatsoever demonstrate the "valid answer to the question", which is "Trilobites went extinct in the Permian and no one knows why". So please, provide the actual reason why horseshoe crabs "demonstrate the valid answer" to the question "Why aren't they [trilobites] still around?"
 
I fail to see how these are lies.

I seem to have missed this point. I suppose the word "lie" is a bit strong, but these examples are certainly not helpful to any discussion with creationists, as they do not show what the creationist is asking for, and they do a crap job of pretending to do so, as outlined in a previous post.
 
Kotatsu, welcome to the wonderful world of questioning JREF skeptical dogma. The logic is as follows: Creationists are wrong, therefore their arguments are wrong, therefore all we need do is find ways to prove them wrong. It's dogmatic nonsense under the guise of rationality....

Which is the main reason why for most of the time, I don't read this forum any longer. There is no knowledge to be gained here, and there is no knowledge accepted either.

Then why are either of you here except to play this Waldorf and Statler routine?

The context was obviously a joke regardless of it being posted in the wrong forum. Shock and horror! You really thought, either of you, this was a serious post?

(And if it was then I read it wrong in the first place.)
 
The OP claims to be disproving evolution by using creationist logic, and then doesn't use creationist logic. I object to this.

Well, I disagree. Some creationist do hold exactly these mis-perceptions. I don't think I'm alone in that experience.

Then please substitute some lucidity for your present smug elusiveness. I refer specifically to the following exchange:

In this exchange, I see no explicit mention, on your part, as to why the horseshoe crabs are included after I dismiss them as irrelevant to the question "Why aren't trilobites around?" as they are not trilobites, unless it is implied that they are responsible for that in some way. Instead, I see you saying that I "just gave you the full reason" to what you hinted at before, immediately following a post in which I stated that:
1. The only valid answer is that they went extinct in the Permian and no one knows why (something I see no hint at in your posts previous to this one);
2. The only exception to this would be if they are implied to be the cause of the extinction of trilobites.

The only "hint" I can find as to their inclusion prior to that post is "But they demonstrates the valid answer to the question." Horseshoe crabs in no way whatsoever demonstrate the "valid answer to the question", which is "Trilobites went extinct in the Permian and no one knows why". So please, provide the actual reason why horseshoe crabs "demonstrate the valid answer" to the question "Why aren't they [trilobites] still around?"

I accepted your explanation (despite the fact that you yourself seem to think they are not appropriate answers to a creationists).

For purposes of answering creationist misunderstanding it's perfectly fine to point to horseshoe crabs. They either out competed, convergently evolved, or descended from trilobites or a close relative. If you happen to run in to a creationist whose eyes don't glaze over when you start to give all the scientific details, feel free. But no matter which explanation is actually true, the absence of trilobites today is not a problem that prevents evolution from being true. The creationist mis-perception being addressed is that extinction of a successful species means evolution is wrong.
 
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Then why are either of you here except to play this Waldorf and Statler routine?

Nostalgia? It's not that long ago when it was possible to have good conversations with creationists here, where most of the people involved on both sides of the debate were reasonably educated on the subject (although one side was misguided in their interpretation), and it was actually possible to learn about new things and new arguments for or against creationism here.

In addition, the arguments presented in the OP are crap arguments whether they are joke arguments or not. This does not stop people from using crap arguments like these as if they were good arguments. I object to this, as it demeans my discipline, and do not see any problem with pointing out that in a serious context, these arguments are ridiculous. It is not only the creationist side of this debate where there are multitudes of ill-educated people who more or less repeat arguments they've read somewhere without reflecting over whether these arguments are good or not, and why they are not if they are not.

The context was obviously a joke regardless of it being posted in the wrong forum. Shock and horror! You really thought, either of you, this was a serious post?

I hope I never have to move to where you live, and it is apparently IMPOSSIBLE to transition a discussion from a joke to something serious. This attitude must make you the centre of all parties you attend!
 
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I hope I never have to move to where you live, and it is apparently IMPOSSIBLE to transition a discussion from a joke to something serious. This attitude must make you the centre of all parties you attend!

So...serious ad hominem or joke?

I'm great fun at scientific meetings. I attend the plenary sessions with all due professionalism then pretty much take the parties as parties and not satellite meetings.
 
The context was obviously a joke regardless of it being posted in the wrong forum. Shock and horror! You really thought, either of you, this was a serious post?
(And if it was then I read it wrong in the first place.)

To me it's both joking and serious. Yes, it humorous. Yes, it address some actual creationist mis-perceptions.
 
In addition, the arguments presented in the OP are crap arguments whether they are joke arguments or not. This does not stop people from using crap arguments like these as if they were good arguments. I object to this, as it demeans my discipline, and do not see any problem with pointing out that in a serious context, these arguments are ridiculous.

The OP doesn't actually have anything to do with your discipline. It's addressing creationist mis-perceptions. They aren't presented as arguments for evolution. They are addressing a common creationist misperception.
 
I accepted your explanation (despite the fact that you yourself seem to think they are not appropriate answers to a creationists).

My explanation is "They went extinct in the Permian. It is therefore irrelevant to show pictures of horseshoe crabs." If you agree with this, I don't see how the picture of the horseshoe crabs "demonstrate the valid answer to the question."

For purposes of answering creationist misunderstanding it's perfectly fine to point to horseshoe crabs.

This is bizarre. It is "perfectly fine" to show pictures of an entirely separate group of organisms to answer the question "Why aren't they [trilobites] still around?" without any explanation? Not addressing the question in any way whatsoever is a "perfectly fine" way to answer creationist misunderstandings?

I most strenuously beg to differ, as I believe the way to deal with creationist misunderstandings is to attempt to educate them. Whether this works or not is a separate issue, but confusing them further by referencing something that is entirely irrelevant to the question does not seem to be helpful at all. Unless, of course, the purpose is to mock them.

They either out competed, convergently evolved, or descended from trilobites or a close relative.

If they out-competed the trilobites, and that is the reason why there are no trilobites, this, as has been pointed out, transcends our present knowledge of the Permian extinction, and as such would need to be supported by evidence to be a satisfactory answer.

If they convergently evolved with trilobites, this does not in any way answer the question of why there are no trilobites around today. Icterids have convergently evolved with starlings, yet both are still around.

If they are descended from close relatives of trilobites, they are still not trilobites, and this does thus not answer the question "Why are there no trilobites around today?".

If they are descended from trilobites, this would answer the question, but this would have to be supported with evidence.

None of these alternatives is sufficient if the only "argument" is to show a picture of horseshoe crabs.

If you happen to run in to a creationist whose eyes don't glaze over when you start to give all the scientific details, feel free. But no matter which explanation is actually true, the absence of trilobites today is not a problem that prevents evolution from being true.

Of course not. I don't even understand why the question is included in the OP in the first place.

The creationist mis-perception being addressed is that extinction of a successful species means evolution is wrong.

"Addressed" is a strong word for what is going on here. And showing pictures of horseshoe crabs is still not a valid answer to the question, even if "addressing" the misconception is the intention.

So...serious ad hominem or joke?

It is probably offered in the same spirit as the post it refers to. The exact answer to your question thus probably depends on whether you allow the transition from serious to humorous (and reverse), or if these are seen as "non-overlapping magisteria" with no switches possible.
 
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